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Post by ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ on Nov 4, 2014 14:33:39 GMT -5
So it doesnt' bother YOU, so what? Why should she have to be accosted in the first place? Funny you can't answer that. And, funny how I have heard NO condemnation for the idiots doing this in the first place. Uh huh.
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Cookies Galore
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Post by Cookies Galore on Nov 4, 2014 14:36:57 GMT -5
Obviously our experiences are different because the about face DOES happen. Literally, never had it happen to me. Maybe I'm not as beautiful as you  I'm quite average. It has nothing to do with beauty. I take public transit and work in a busy area of the city. I'm just a typical woman minding her own typical business. Street harassment is a big deal here. |
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Nov 4, 2014 14:41:28 GMT -5
I'm saying that if drawing the attention of the opposite sex constitutes "harassment", it isn't just comments and cat calls that we should be discussing in this thread. If a group of women are glancing over at a handsome man not-so-furtively and laughing, or one of them waves to him, are they harassing him? If not, why? They're using social cues they know perfectly well mean "We find you attractive and we want to talk to you." According to some posters here, such unsolicited advances constitute harassment ipso facto. She's not exactly a bag lady. She's young, fit, reasonably attractive, fine-featured. She's wearing high-end tight-fitting clothes, and her hair is long and styled. For somebody walking around the ghetto for ten hours straight, how much more provocative does she have to get to attract at least a few dozen suitors? Make her a fat 40-year-old with sunken eyes and a bad complexion, stick her in a baggy jogging suit, then rerun the experiment and see how many cat calls she gets. How about an upper 40 something, pudgy, greying haired woman in a non form-fitting business suit? Trust me Virgil, I'm no looker and the cat calls and stuff aren't because I'm putting out "I'm available" vibes. It's just a few select men trying to make themselves feel better in some way that I likely will never understand. Do I think it's poor behavior? Yes. Do I blame all men? No. Did I "ask for it" in any way? Oh Hell's no!!! Saying a person's appearance invites poor behavior on the part of others is not a winning argument my friend  . It depends on how you define "invite". I have moral qualms against men lusting after women, and I don't approve of raunchy comments, so I agree that appearance doesn't "invite" cat calls in that sense. Having said that, in the real world, two pi radius equals circumference, E equals m c squared, and rate of cat calls equals k times woman's attractiveness cubed, times dressiness, divided by 10 to the number of people accompanying her. Hence that's the definition you use if you want "invite" to sync up with reality. Pretending crass social norms don't exist because they shouldn't exist is not a good coping technique. |
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Nov 4, 2014 14:57:43 GMT -5
... Everyone's putting the blame on men, and that men need to change. What about hookers or streetwalkers? They aren't helping the cause. Or women who work as strippers in clubs frequented predominantly by men who go there to watch them gyrate and shake their goods, or do lap-dances (or more)? How about something less extreme. How about a television show with a character that doesn't even have a name but is simply referred to as "Hot Girl"? Seems like that would be the type of objectifying that we should be avoiding. Here is a link to the web site of a young actress who is working on such a project: FOR REAL Hot Girl Pilot Presentation dreamthree productions NYC shoshanabroberts.wix.com/shoshanabroberts#!current-projects/c1k5a |
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Nov 4, 2014 15:32:46 GMT -5
How about an upper 40 something, pudgy, greying haired woman in a non form-fitting business suit? Trust me Virgil, I'm no looker and the cat calls and stuff aren't because I'm putting out "I'm available" vibes. It's just a few select men trying to make themselves feel better in some way that I likely will never understand. Do I think it's poor behavior? Yes. Do I blame all men? No. Did I "ask for it" in any way? Oh Hell's no!!! Saying a person's appearance invites poor behavior on the part of others is not a winning argument my friend . It depends on how you define "invite". I have moral qualms against men lusting after women, and I don't approve of raunchy comments, so I agree that appearance doesn't "invite" cat calls in that sense. Having said that, in the real world, two pi radius equals circumference, E equals m c squared, and rate of cat calls equals k times woman's attractiveness cubed, times dressiness, divided by 10 to the number of people accompanying her. Hence that's the definition you use if you want "invite" to sync up with reality. Pretending crass social norms don't exist because they shouldn't exist is not a good coping technique. I understand what you are saying (at least I think I do  ) but the fact that there is a (minority) segment of society that believes it's more acceptable to cat call or solicit a woman who is more attractive or dressed nicely is just plain wrong. I think we can agree on that. Thinking the issue will never go away is also not likely to happen, but it would be something nice to strive for, yes? |
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ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ
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Post by ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ on Nov 4, 2014 15:42:02 GMT -5
I was going to mention television billisonboard - and even more so, movies - which are usually as unrealistic to real-life as you can get.
What about x-rated movies or skin magazines (Playboy for example), or pin-up calendars?
Even ads (like the pic posted earlier). Aren't they also contributing?
They aren't typical of most women - and the video in question & street it was filmed on, and the actions/behavior of the men in it are also not typical of most men - which is why I'll continue to say it was set up, and it's an unfair example of how most men really are.
Are there creeps & boors like that? Yes - that's a given. They're everywhere, in every walk of society - and every level of society. There are also women who help contribute to the problem.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Nov 4, 2014 15:53:14 GMT -5
... Thinking the issue will never go away is also not likely to happen, but it would be something nice to strive for, yes?  Responding to what I think you meant instead of what I think you typed I agree that it is a great thing to strive for. The question is what is the strategy with best chance for success. I would contend that releasing a video with the range of behaviors shown on this particular video and labeling it all as "harassment" is not that best strategy. Either focus on actual harassment or focus on obnoxious behavior and label it as such would help minimize the negative reaction this video has created. I would also contend that looking at and attacking the conditions that create the behavior would be more effective than "slapping the hands of those who engage in it and telling them 'bad boy'". |
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Nov 4, 2014 16:10:59 GMT -5
Training video on how to respond as a non-victim to inappropriate male behavior:
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ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ
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Post by ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ on Nov 4, 2014 16:16:45 GMT -5
billisonboard - did you notice that the woman in that video is the same actress that was in the first video?
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Nov 4, 2014 16:48:37 GMT -5
billisonboard - did you notice that the woman in that video is the same actress that was in the first video? Yes.  Did you notice she is the one playing the role of "Hot Girl" in the television pilot. |
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Nov 4, 2014 17:26:02 GMT -5
I would contend that releasing a video with the range of behaviors shown on this particular video and labeling it all as "harassment" is not that best strategy.
This is exactly the problem. Releasing a video saying 'look how harassed this poor woman was in NYC' when half the video isn't harassment is silly.
As a side note - I bet you could take the exact same 10 hours of footage & several 2 minute videos 'look how friendly people are in NYC' 'look how many panhandlers are in NYC' 'look how many people walk dogs in NYC'. A 2 minute video is such a minor clip of time compared to 600 minutes of walking that it is ridiculous to think any video couldn't have been created & spun with that amount of footage. But, the fact they couldn't even fill 2 full minutes with actual harassment without including 'have a nice evening' & other pleasantries leaves me totally unimpressed.
ETA - The problem of being harassed is absolutely real. This video is a poor representation of that problem. |
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Nov 4, 2014 18:18:15 GMT -5
People define harassment in funny ways. I remember seeing one of my colleagues working furiously. When I asked around to find out why she was so busy, a coworker told me it was harass if she didn't meet the 5:00 PM deadline. |
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Nov 4, 2014 18:37:00 GMT -5
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siralynn
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Post by siralynn on Nov 4, 2014 18:55:36 GMT -5
ETA - The problem of being harassed is absolutely real. This video is a poor representation of that problem. The video certainly isn't perfect - but it got a conversation started, which is something! Like I said in an earlier post, if it gets anyone to reexamine their behavior towards strangers and just pause to think for a second before yelling something or telling a woman to "smile", it at least did some good. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2014 18:59:39 GMT -5
How harsh commenters! But women better just don't worry about it so we will be empowered  |
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Nov 4, 2014 19:01:27 GMT -5
... A man who tried to defend his pregnant girlfriend from a group of catcallers ended up in a Philadelphia hospital with a broken jaw. ... Catcallers or thugs? |
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Nov 4, 2014 19:02:52 GMT -5
ETA - The problem of being harassed is absolutely real. This video is a poor representation of that problem. The video certainly isn't perfect - but it got a conversation started, which is something! Like I said in an earlier post, if it gets anyone to reexamine their behavior towards strangers and just pause to think for a second before yelling something or telling a woman to "smile", it at least did some good. But it seems the entire conversation is about how much of the interactions are really harassment. IMO, it did more to make women look like a bunch of whiners that you can't even greet without being accused of harassment. At least that is how I felt when I watched the video, which does nothing to help the cause. If anything, it downplays the actual problem.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2014 19:51:04 GMT -5
ETA - The problem of being harassed is absolutely real. This video is a poor representation of that problem. The video certainly isn't perfect - but it got a conversation started, which is something! Like I said in an earlier post, if it gets anyone to reexamine their behavior towards strangers and just pause to think for a second before yelling something or telling a woman to "smile", it at least did some good. Since it is diluting the issue of REAL harassment... I disagree that it "did some good". Fight real harassment... don't fight people suggesting you cheer up, when you look unhappy. |
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ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ
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Post by ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ on Nov 4, 2014 19:53:14 GMT -5
What about the women who work at places like The Tilted Kilt or Hooters ?
Their uniforms, and the way they interact with the customers (usually predominately male) - bending over as they place drinks or food on the table etc, gives off the message that it's okay to look, leer, ogle, etc. They pose for pics with the customers, putting their arms around them, and allowing the men to do the same (The Hooters girls).
Yup, the problems being discussed here are all the fault of men , because men are pigs (sarcasm). And we, as women haven't done anything to encourage it.   - 
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2014 21:36:47 GMT -5
The video certainly isn't perfect - but it got a conversation started, which is something! Like I said in an earlier post, if it gets anyone to reexamine their behavior towards strangers and just pause to think for a second before yelling something or telling a woman to "smile", it at least did some good. But it seems the entire conversation is about how much of the interactions are really harassment. IMO, it did more to make women look like a bunch of whiners that you can't even greet without being accused of harassment. At least that is how I felt when I watched the video, which does nothing to help the cause. If anything, it downplays the actual problem.
Please don't do that. There is an actual problem and nothing downplays it. This whole debate about what was or wasn't harassment is a distraction. Getting catcalled and followed is harassing and threatening and it needs to stop. One of the best ways to stop it is peer pressure that it is unacceptable. Spending a whole lot of time belittling the video is not helpful. Unless your goal is to maintain the status quo. Then it's very helpful. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2014 21:43:34 GMT -5
The video certainly isn't perfect - but it got a conversation started, which is something! Like I said in an earlier post, if it gets anyone to reexamine their behavior towards strangers and just pause to think for a second before yelling something or telling a woman to "smile", it at least did some good. Since it is diluting the issue of REAL harassment... I disagree that it "did some good". Fight real harassment... don't fight people suggesting you cheer up, when you look unhappy. It's not the video that diluted the issue of real harassment, it is this discussion. That guy was not trying to cheer the woman up, he was trying to force her to interact with him when it was obvious she didn't want to. Pretending that he was being nice is disingenuous. |
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Nov 4, 2014 21:56:31 GMT -5
But it seems the entire conversation is about how much of the interactions are really harassment. IMO, it did more to make women look like a bunch of whiners that you can't even greet without being accused of harassment. At least that is how I felt when I watched the video, which does nothing to help the cause. If anything, it downplays the actual problem.
Please don't do that. There is an actual problem and nothing downplays it. This whole debate about what was or wasn't harassment is a distraction. Getting catcalled and followed is harassing and threatening and it needs to stop. One of the best ways to stop it is peer pressure that it is unacceptable. Spending a whole lot of time belittling the video is not helpful. Unless your goal is to maintain the status quo. Then it's very helpful.[British] Complaining that someone saying 'have a nice evening' is harassment absolutely downplays the issue. People watch that and think 'this is what women are complaining about, wtf' and then assume harassment isn't really that big of an issue. You can disagree, but that is how I interpreted the video and I am not the only one that felt this way. The mere fact I felt that way shows that it downplays the issue. The mere fact we are having this conversation shows that the video does not accurately potray the message they want. |
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Nov 4, 2014 21:57:08 GMT -5
But it seems the entire conversation is about how much of the interactions are really harassment. IMO, it did more to make women look like a bunch of whiners that you can't even greet without being accused of harassment. At least that is how I felt when I watched the video, which does nothing to help the cause. If anything, it downplays the actual problem.
Please don't do that. There is an actual problem and nothing downplays it. This whole debate about what was or wasn't harassment is a distraction. Getting catcalled and followed is harassing and threatening and it needs to stop. One of the best ways to stop it is peer pressure that it is unacceptable. Spending a whole lot of time belittling the video is not helpful. Unless your goal is to maintain the status quo. Then it's very helpful. Disagree with detailed discussion for an extended time here on the thread. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2014 22:00:00 GMT -5
Please don't do that. There is an actual problem and nothing downplays it. This whole debate about what was or wasn't harassment is a distraction. Getting catcalled and followed is harassing and threatening and it needs to stop. One of the best ways to stop it is peer pressure that it is unacceptable. Spending a whole lot of time belittling the video is not helpful. Unless your goal is to maintain the status quo. Then it's very helpful.[British] Complaining that someone saying 'have a nice evening' is harassment absolutely downplays the issue. People watch that and think 'this is what women are complaining about, wtf' and then assume harassment isn't really that big of an issue. You can disagree, but that is how I interpreted the video and I am not the only one that felt this way. The mere fact I felt that way shows that it downplays the issue. The mere fact we are having this conversation shows that the video does not accurately potray the message they want. But why focus on that one comment? There was one guy on there that gave conversation and shot and accepted the rejection with "have a nice evening". The rest of the approaches were not respectful in nature. Why is that one the focus? |
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Nov 4, 2014 22:02:27 GMT -5
Complaining that someone saying 'have a nice evening' is harassment absolutely downplays the issue. People watch that and think 'this is what women are complaining about, wtf' and then assume harassment isn't really that big of an issue. You can disagree, but that is how I interpreted the video and I am not the only one that felt this way. The mere fact I felt that way shows that it downplays the issue. The mere fact we are having this conversation shows that the video does not accurately potray the message they want. But why focus on that one comment? There was one guy on there that gave conversation and shot and accepted the rejection with "have a nice evening". The rest of the approaches were not respectful in nature. Why is that one the focus? |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2014 22:04:15 GMT -5
Please don't do that. There is an actual problem and nothing downplays it. This whole debate about what was or wasn't harassment is a distraction. Getting catcalled and followed is harassing and threatening and it needs to stop. One of the best ways to stop it is peer pressure that it is unacceptable. Spending a whole lot of time belittling the video is not helpful. Unless your goal is to maintain the status quo. Then it's very helpful. Disagree with detailed discussion for an extended time here on the thread. I love detailed discussion. Detailed discussion that focuses on reasons the woman (or women in general) should accept the status quo diverts attention from the fact that men (some men) need to understand this behaviour is not acceptable. billisonboard tell me honestly, do you behave like the men in that video? |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2014 22:06:38 GMT -5
But why focus on that one comment? There was one guy on there that gave conversation and shot and accepted the rejection with "have a nice evening". The rest of the approaches were not respectful in nature. Why is that one the focus? In this meaning it does. Respectful as in accept the woman's decision not to interact with you and not try to coerce her into it. The opposite of respect in this case is coercion and coercion is harassment. And most of the men on that video were trying to force an interaction she wasn't interested in having. I didn't see any of them that stopped at one comment. |
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Nov 4, 2014 22:08:25 GMT -5
... billisonboard tell me honestly, do you behave like the men in that video? I do not act like either the men nor the woman. I also don't act like those behind the video. |
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Nov 4, 2014 22:09:21 GMT -5
Not respectful does not equal harassment. In this meaning it does. Respectful as in accept the woman's decision not to interact with you and not try to coerce her into it. The opposite of respect in this case is coercion and coercion is harassment. And most of the men on that video were trying to force an interaction she wasn't interested in having. I didn't see any of them that stopped at one comment. I saw them. |
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Nov 4, 2014 22:09:29 GMT -5
Someone who thinks they have the right to tell me to smile is going to get some harassment they didn't expect, right back in their face. I keep coming back hoping some neandertals finally get it but nope, same people trying to still spin boorish behavior into something acceptable and cute.
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