Woman Harrassed Simply By Walking in New York

[Angel!]

Nov 4, 2014 11:41:57 GMT -5 Shooby said:

Nov 4, 2014 11:30:45 GMT -5 Angel! said:

OK, I was curious & went through the video & counted interactions & rated them. 10 hours of walking in NYC & passing I am guessing hundreds, if not thousands of folks & we have 24 guys talking to her on this video.  This is how I rated them:

- Friendly (good morning, have a nice evening) - 9

- Inappropriate (damn, just saw a thousand dollars) - 10

- Creepy (the guys that wouldn't leave her alone) - 2

- Rude in response to her ignoring them - 3

So about 50/50 in what I would consider a polite greeting vs inappropriate.  The 2 guys were hella creepy, but they may have left her alone far sooner if she just said something.

So she walked for 10 hours in one of the most crowded cities in our country & 12 people were inappropriate. Not good, but not the massive problem some are making it out to be.

And I agree that just this film means nothing.  Actual research would include men vs women walking the same route & different attire.

Yeah, i would say that a 50% creepy/inappropriate encounter is pretty darn high.

Slightly over 1 person an hour.  If you can walk around NYC for an 1 hour & only get one inappropriate comment, I don't think that is too bad.  That has to be significantly less than 1% of the people you pass.  Not too high, IMO. 

[Shooby]

So it doesnt' bother YOU, so what? Why should she have to be accosted in the first place? Funny you can't answer that. And, funny how I have heard NO condemnation for the idiots doing this in the first place. Uh huh.

[Opti]

Nov 4, 2014 11:30:45 GMT -5 Angel! said:

OK, I was curious & went through the video & counted interactions & rated them. 10 hours of walking in NYC & passing I am guessing hundreds, if not thousands of folks & we have 24 guys talking to her on this video.  This is how I rated them:

- Friendly (good morning, have a nice evening) - 9

- Inappropriate (damn, just saw a thousand dollars) - 10

- Creepy (the guys that wouldn't leave her alone) - 2

- Rude in response to her ignoring them - 3

So about 50/50 in what I would consider a polite greeting vs inappropriate.  The 2 guys were hella creepy, but they may have left her alone far sooner if she just said something.

So she walked for 10 hours in one of the most crowded cities in our country & 12 people were inappropriate. Not good, but not the massive problem some are making it out to be.

And I agree that just this film means nothing.  Actual research would include men vs women walking the same route & different attire.

You remember the video is a 2 minute clip selected from 10 hours of video correct?

Since you labeled the second category as inappropriate, the math I get is

not 50/50.

9/24 is 37.5% and 15/24 would be 62.5%. Closer to 40/60.

They said 10 incidents on average were 10 per hour. Some were not included because

of audio quality, some were of the whistle, leer, and wink category so left off entirely.

So 24 incidents selected from a pool of roughly 120. Its obviously a significant problem for

some people. Since these are averages it is quite possible a daily commute could include

20 incidents a day, or more. You might not find that stressful, but it is rude IMO to say

someone else cannot say yes this is a problem and it upsets me.

[Angel!]

Nov 4, 2014 11:40:40 GMT -5 Shooby said:

Nov 4, 2014 11:03:03 GMT -5 Angel! said:

There exists a sort of societal contract on how people should act & what is consider rude vs polite behavior.  It is considered rude to not hold the door for someone behind you.  It is considered rude to not thank the person that held open the door.  It is considered rude for a young person to not give up their seat on the subway for someone infirm.  It would be rude for the person taking the seat to not thank the person that gave it up. 

We don't live in a vacuum, we interact with those in the world around us whether or not we want to.  In all the cases above, it would be rude to not perform a certain expected behavior.  It doesn't matter if you are minding your own business or what you are doing, it would still be rude to not do these things.

Likewise, ignoring a person who has greeted you is rude.  You can pretend it isn't & make out like she is some sort of victim, but that isn't the case.  She was walking, someone said 'good morning', she ignored them.  No matter how you frame it, that is absolutely rude on her part.

Yes, and a man walking up closely behind you and following you is NOT part of that societal contract.  Neither are comments, catcalling or whatever.  

And those guys were inappropriate.

 But, you are trying to play off that she wasn't behaving rudely by ignoring the pleasant greetings. I disagree, it was rude.  We should not behave rudely simply because others choose to do so.  The fact that some guys are douches doesn't excuse being rude to the ones that are being polite.

[Angel!]

Nov 4, 2014 11:50:24 GMT -5 Opti said:

Nov 4, 2014 11:30:45 GMT -5 Angel! said:

OK, I was curious & went through the video & counted interactions & rated them. 10 hours of walking in NYC & passing I am guessing hundreds, if not thousands of folks & we have 24 guys talking to her on this video.  This is how I rated them:

- Friendly (good morning, have a nice evening) - 9

- Inappropriate (damn, just saw a thousand dollars) - 10

- Creepy (the guys that wouldn't leave her alone) - 2

- Rude in response to her ignoring them - 3

So about 50/50 in what I would consider a polite greeting vs inappropriate.  The 2 guys were hella creepy, but they may have left her alone far sooner if she just said something.

So she walked for 10 hours in one of the most crowded cities in our country & 12 people were inappropriate. Not good, but not the massive problem some are making it out to be.

And I agree that just this film means nothing.  Actual research would include men vs women walking the same route & different attire.

Since you labeled the second category as inappropriate, the math I get is

not 50/50.

9/24 is 37.5% and 15/24 would be 62.5%. Closer to 40/60.

They said 10 incidents on average were 10 per hour. Some were not included because

of audio quality, some were of the whistle, leer, and wink category so left off entirely.

So 24 incidents selected from a pool of roughly 120. Its obviously a significant problem for

some people. Since these are averages it is quite possible a daily commute could include

20 incidents a day, or more. You might not find that stressful, but it is rude IMO to say

someone else cannot say yes this is a problem and it upsets me.

IMO you can't count the ones that were commenting on her rude behavior.  Had she simply acknowledged someone spoke to her, like a polite person, they would not have occurred.  I would buy 9/21, which is 42%.  We can call it 40/60 if that makes you feel better.

Yes, this is only a 2 minute video.  But, if you were only making a 2 minute video to make a point, wouldn't you use the best examples you had available?  So, I don't believe this is an accurate representation of the rest that wasn't shown.  So the worst of the worst & you get a 40/60 split in polite vs. rude.  The fact they included 'how you doing today' or 'have a nice evening' to even make a 2 minute video tells me that many of the rest of the 'incidents' were pretty damn minor.  Seriously, someone saying 'have a nice evening' is supposed to show us how harassed women are in NYC??  Give me a break.

[Opti]

Nov 4, 2014 11:42:43 GMT -5 Angel! said:

Nov 4, 2014 11:35:52 GMT -5 Opti said:

Angel!

The societal contract is not a fixed thing US wide, North Amercan wide, nor even necessarily

agreed to by the constant stream of immigrants or H1B Visa holders that come to this country.

This is true. Personally, I think it is extremely rude to not acknowledge someone speaking to you.  At least a few in the video would agree with me.  I don't think that perception is terribly location dependent.  If we were arguing about personal space or kiss on cheek vs handshake, then it would totally be location dependent...but, responding to 'good morning', not so much.

Do you believe that ignoring someone that greeted you is polite?

In NYC it can be a survival or get to where you are going strategy. Personally the only

people I can remember saying Hi to me on the street are street vendors who want

you to come by and sample their wares.

Whether I believe it is polite, rude or OK is context and situation dependent. Like I related

earlier a NYC commuter lived in an apartment near me and when I said Hello the first time

she ignored me. Then I felt she was slightly rude and a NYCer, but later I decided it would

be rude of me to say Hi to her in the future as it would be an unwanted interaction. That

was confirmed when in the next couple times she actively looked in another direction when

she saw we would pass each other on the sidewalk.

So yes sometimes it is polite or to be expected. Like being at church and having someone

new say hello to you. There are big numbers of NYC commuters all over NJ, and they are

less friendly as a result. And in scary parts of Newark and New Brunswick I most definitely

would not say Hi to a man.

So short answer in NYC and parts of NJ cities, yes. Because generally if we are not in a safer

area like a store or restaurant it was more impolite to say hi than it is to not acknowledge it.

Location, Location, Location and Context, context, context.

[billisonboard]

Nov 4, 2014 10:39:39 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

I'm not so sure about that.  If I'm judging by the women I go out with, there are things said.  Not as loudly, mind you, but they are said.  Tell me you've never seen a nice looking man walk by and whisper, "Wow.  Nice butt." to one of your friends. 

Why is it that males say it louder and women whisper it?
A) Men are by nature assholes
B) Women are by nature more polite
C) There is something in the socialization process that creates this difference
D) Posters chance:

[Angel!]

Nov 4, 2014 11:49:04 GMT -5 Shooby said:

So it doesnt' bother YOU, so what? Why should she have to be accosted in the first place? Funny you can't answer that. And, funny how I have heard NO condemnation for the idiots doing this in the first place. Uh huh.

Are you talking to me?  I have made the following comments in this thread:

I'm not saying there weren't guys in the video that were complete jackasses.  - #541

Some of those comments were rude and insulting. - #567

Yeah, there were a couple of creepy or rude guys in there. - #526

Doesn't excuse their behavior, but I find if I want to be treated with respect, it is best to be respectful of others. - #593

And those guys were inappropriate.  - #620

Not sure where you think I am not condemning the inappropriate behavior.  Maybe you aren't bothering to read what I am actually saying. 

My problem here - we are lumping someone saying 'have a nice evening' in with the guy who says 'damn'.  One is polite, one is rude.  Why are they both being displayed as rude behavior?  And why are we ignoring how her rude behavior impacts the behavior of others?  You can't set up a situation that you know will offend some people & then act indignant when they get upset.

You really want to try to claim that having someone say 'have a good evening' is accosting them?

[Opti]

But, you are trying to play off that she wasn't behaving rudely by ignoring the pleasant greetings. I disagree, it was rude.

Angel, do you work live or commute in NYC?

I do not, but I have attended several work meetings in NYC, met a former co-worker

for lunch and have attended Expos and shows as well.

Its NYC protocol to ignore greetings unless you want to engage.

Its expected for people to say nothing generally when they walk the streets

with strangers or watch strangers go by. It might be hard for most of you to

conceive, but pleasant greetings on the street to strangers are not considered polite NYC behavior.

That's why this discussion is not going well in general.

People can not seem to conceive of a place that saying Hi on the street is considered rude behavior.

Or that is a NYC technique used most often by people who want to sell you something, etc.

[zibazinski]

Nov 4, 2014 10:39:39 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

I'm not so sure about that.  If I'm judging by the women I go out with, there are things said.  Not as loudly, mind you, but they are said.  Tell me you've never seen a nice looking man walk by and whisper, "Wow.  Nice butt." to one of your friends. 

That would be different than yelling nice butt to him.

[Tennesseer]

Nov 4, 2014 11:42:43 GMT -5 Angel! said:

Nov 4, 2014 11:35:52 GMT -5 Opti said:

Angel!

The societal contract is not a fixed thing US wide, North Amercan wide, nor even necessarily

agreed to by the constant stream of immigrants or H1B Visa holders that come to this country.

This is true. Personally, I think it is extremely rude to not acknowledge someone speaking to you.  At least a few in the video would agree with me.  I don't think that perception is terribly location dependent.  If we were arguing about personal space or kiss on cheek vs handshake, then it would totally be location dependent...but, responding to 'good morning', not so much.

Do you believe that ignoring someone that greeted you is polite?

Why must we acknowledge someone who greets us so we are not considered impolite? I say hello back often to strangers. I also ignore some folks too who greet me on the streets, like panhandlers and raging schizophrenics.

I don't think others are impolite if I nod or offer a verbal hello and they do not return it in kind. They may have their own reason for not doing so. Who am I to judge others who are complete strangers to me. I am almost sure we will never cross paths again in the future.

[Angel!]

Nov 4, 2014 12:18:20 GMT -5 Opti said:

But, you are trying to play off that she wasn't behaving rudely by ignoring the pleasant greetings. I disagree, it was rude.

Angel, do you work live or commute in NYC?

I do not, but I have attended several work meetings in NYC, met a former co-worker

for lunch and have attended Expos and shows as well.

I have been. My brother & BFF both lived in NYC for over a decade & I have visited. So it sounds like we have about the same level of experience.  I would say it is unusual to have people greet you while walking on the street, but I wouldn't classify it as rude, even in NYC. 

And yes, the street vendors always are talking to you. I would guess at least 1 or 2 on the video were vendors & talk to everyone. Which is why another video showing a guy walking the same route would provide a lot more meaning to all this 'harassment' this girl receives.   

[Angel!]

Nov 4, 2014 12:31:31 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Nov 4, 2014 11:42:43 GMT -5 Angel! said:

This is true. Personally, I think it is extremely rude to not acknowledge someone speaking to you.  At least a few in the video would agree with me.  I don't think that perception is terribly location dependent.  If we were arguing about personal space or kiss on cheek vs handshake, then it would totally be location dependent...but, responding to 'good morning', not so much.

Do you believe that ignoring someone that greeted you is polite?

Why must we acknowledge someone who greets us so we are not considered impolite? I say hello back often to strangers. I also ignore some folks too who greet me on the streets, like panhandlers and raging schizophrenics.

I don't think others are impolite if I nod or offer a verbal hello and they do not return it in kind. They may have their own reason for not doing so. Who am I to judge others who are complete strangers to me. I am almost sure we will never cross paths again in the future.

Ok, then who are we to judge the ones that choose to do the greetings? The entire video is made to judge all the guys, if we are going to judge them, then we should judge her as well.

[zibazinski]

This is true. I'd like to have seen a guy walking and being filmed by another guy. Maybe it would have alerted those who THINK SHE is rude to the fact that she was not rude at all but being street smart. 

[Angel!]

Nov 4, 2014 12:37:36 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

This is true. I'd like to have seen a guy walking and being filmed by another guy. Maybe it would have alerted those who THINK SHE is rude to the fact that she was not rude at all but being street smart. 

How so?

[Green Eyed Lady]

Nov 4, 2014 12:30:48 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

Nov 4, 2014 10:39:39 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

I'm not so sure about that.  If I'm judging by the women I go out with, there are things said.  Not as loudly, mind you, but they are said.  Tell me you've never seen a nice looking man walk by and whisper, "Wow.  Nice butt." to one of your friends. 

That would be different than yelling nice butt to him.

Not really, Zib.  Just because he didn't hear it doesn't excuse the behavior.  It's not different.  It's people behaving badly.  If I take your purse and you didn't see me, am I less guilty of bad behavior than if I took your purse and you did see me?  Nope.  It's all bad behavior and whether or not the person the behavior was aimed at heard it or not, it's still bad behavior.  And everybody has been guilty of it.  Men AND women.

[Opti]

Nov 4, 2014 12:01:32 GMT -5 Angel! said:

Nov 4, 2014 11:50:24 GMT -5 Opti said:

Since you labeled the second category as inappropriate, the math I get is

not 50/50.

9/24 is 37.5% and 15/24 would be 62.5%. Closer to 40/60.

They said 10 incidents on average were 10 per hour. Some were not included because

of audio quality, some were of the whistle, leer, and wink category so left off entirely.

So 24 incidents selected from a pool of roughly 120. Its obviously a significant problem for

some people. Since these are averages it is quite possible a daily commute could include

20 incidents a day, or more. You might not find that stressful, but it is rude IMO to say

someone else cannot say yes this is a problem and it upsets me.

IMO you can't count the ones that were commenting on her rude behavior.  Had she simply acknowledged someone spoke to her, like a polite person, they would not have occurred.  I would buy 9/21, which is 42%.  We can call it 40/60 if that makes you feel better.

Yes, this is only a 2 minute video.  But, if you were only making a 2 minute video to make a point, wouldn't you use the best examples you had available?  So, I don't believe this is an accurate representation of the rest that wasn't shown.  So the worst of the worst & you get a 40/60 split in polite vs. rude.  The fact they included 'how you doing today' or 'have a nice evening' to even make a 2 minute video tells me that many of the rest of the 'incidents' were pretty damn minor.  Seriously, someone saying 'have a nice evening' is supposed to show us how harassed women are in NYC??  Give me a break.

I can count it if I want to. And I will count it because it is NYC and NYC is not the town

where you live.

There is a reason New Yorkers(NYCers) have a reputation for being rude. Its because

what is polite behavior here, is considered rude to those who do not live, work, or

visit often.

It is OK to say Hello inside stores and restaurants although less common than most

places. It is OK to chat up people in your neighborhood, but it is considered not OK

to say what other people consider polite greetings to others while walking the street.

It is considered rude or a soliciter if you do so to an individual walking with eyes straight ahead

or away from you.

You want what is generally considered rude NYC behavior to be counted as polite behavior

because by you it is polite. If you walk into a posh gentleman's club it is considered bad

form to say hello right away to someone you don't know. Introductions need to be made

protocol is to be followed. Same with NYC.

[ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ]

Nov 4, 2014 7:33:18 GMT -5 Shooby said:

The "umpteenth" time? Wow, Lassie you are really, really into it.

Yes, I am "really into it". And yes, I've watched the video over and over. Were some of the guys creeps? Yes!! I've said that too. Is this street "typical" of most? NO!

Is the experiment realistic of society as a whole? Again, NO! Is it shining a bad light on the behavior of men in general? ABSOLUTELY!

You live in Canada and I live in NYC metro area. I have actually
walked the streets and seen these things to know that your assertions are incorrect.

Why should the fact that I live in Canada make a difference? Do you think we all live in tiny villages or igloos and life here is all peace & harmony?

The city I live in has a population of over 1.2 million - The city Virgil lives in is even larger than mine.

We have neighborhoods that are ritzy - we have neighborhoods that are run-down - we have a large downtown business area - and suburban malls, etc. We have areas you could classify as "ghetto".

And I've been to NY, and other large cities in the US. Houston, Los Angeles, New Orleans, etc. What difference does it make? Every large city has problems similar to this.

Our population is a melting pot of different classes, races, incomes & cultures.

Do we have areas like the one in the video? Absolutely. I mentioned yesterday that I worked in a run-down and rather seedy area similar to the one in the video when I was younger - about the same age as the woman in the video. There was one street corner about a block from my office that I had to pass every day (twice) where unemployed men were just hanging out on the corner, hoping to be picked up for day-labor so they could earn a few bucks for their next night in a crappy hotel, mens' hostel or boarding house, or next bottle of hooch. Were they "creepy" looking. Some were. Did they speak to me in passing, yes often. Did some say things they shouldn't have? Yes.

I'm tall & slim with what you would consider a nice figure.

A couple of years later, I changed jobs and my office was more "uptown" in a nicer part of the city - more cosmopolitan and corporate. The atmosphere and people and the way they interacted was completely different.

That's why I say the video is a very flawed depiction of the behavior of men or the male population - and that it was set up purposely to get a strong reaction.

I've also said there are cases in public or the workforce where women are treated less fairly than men, or like sex-objects, and it's wrong.

Everyone's putting the blame on men, and that men need to change. What about hookers or streetwalkers? They aren't helping the cause. Or women who work as strippers in clubs frequented predominantly by men who go there to watch them gyrate and shake their goods, or do lap-dances (or more)?

[Opti]

Nov 4, 2014 12:33:02 GMT -5 Angel! said:

Nov 4, 2014 12:18:20 GMT -5 Opti said:

Angel, do you work live or commute in NYC?

I do not, but I have attended several work meetings in NYC, met a former co-worker

for lunch and have attended Expos and shows as well.

I have been. My brother & BFF both lived in NYC for over a decade & I have visited. So it sounds like we have about the same level of experience.  I would say it is unusual to have people greet you while walking on the street, but I wouldn't classify it as rude, even in NYC. 

And yes, the street vendors always are talking to you. I would guess at least 1 or 2 on the video were vendors & talk to everyone. Which is why another video showing a guy walking the same route would provide a lot more meaning to all this 'harassment' this girl receives.   

OK. But I personally don't chat up vendors in NYC or even my local mall when

they call out to me no matter how polite. They are doing it to get my attention so I buy.

When I don't want to buy or don't feel like interacting I say nothing.

For you that might be rude, but I think its a valid response to do nothing.

Its not like a co-worker or even fellow employee saying Hi as you wait to go through

security inside a corporate building in NYC.

[Opti]

Having problems quoting parts of SL's post and pasting from Wiki, so

feel free to find links.

Toronto is the most populous city in Canada at about 2.6 or 2.79 million depending

on whose numbers you use. It is 243.24 sq miles. NYC has a population of roughly 8.4

million and 305 sq miles. If you crunch the numbers just on residents alone Toronto is

less than half as populous than NYC. The metro areas from which commuters may come in

from work similarly are quite different - around 6 mil for Toronto and 19 million for NYC.

Add in 55 million annual visitors to NYC and whatever Toronto's numbers are the

gap would widen even more. Toronto is on a most liveable cities list. I'd be surprised

to ever see NYC there. The sheer numbers in a small area is what makes it different.

Roving around NYC during Rush is different than other times except generally certain

areas on a Saturday.

They are less similar than you think and Toronto is #4 or #5 most populous city in

North America FWIW.

[Cookies Galore]

Nov 4, 2014 12:39:53 GMT -5 Angel! said:

Nov 4, 2014 12:37:36 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

This is true. I'd like to have seen a guy walking and being filmed by another guy. Maybe it would have alerted those who THINK SHE is rude to the fact that she was not rude at all but being street smart. 

How so?

By acknowledging a total stranger on the street you're extending an invitation for them to continue speaking to you. I generally don't engage anyone on the street. Because that "hi" is followed by "what's your name? Can I call you? What's wrong? Why don't you smile more? You'd be prettier if you smiled." It's annoying as shit and I shouldn't have to "be nice" because some random stranger wants me to. When it happens often enough it ceases to be nice.

[Shooby]

Nov 4, 2014 12:36:23 GMT -5 Angel! said:

Nov 4, 2014 12:31:31 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Why must we acknowledge someone who greets us so we are not considered impolite? I say hello back often to strangers. I also ignore some folks too who greet me on the streets, like panhandlers and raging schizophrenics.

I don't think others are impolite if I nod or offer a verbal hello and they do not return it in kind. They may have their own reason for not doing so. Who am I to judge others who are complete strangers to me. I am almost sure we will never cross paths again in the future.

Ok, then who are we to judge the ones that choose to do the greetings? The entire video is made to judge all the guys, if we are going to judge them, then we should judge her as well.

Nonsense.  She wasn't DOING anything to judge.  She was walking, not soliciting, not engaging strangers.  There is nothing that she is doing other than walking and keep walking.  Fail.

[Angel!]

Nov 4, 2014 12:56:25 GMT -5 Opti said:

Nov 4, 2014 12:33:02 GMT -5 Angel! said:

I have been. My brother & BFF both lived in NYC for over a decade & I have visited. So it sounds like we have about the same level of experience.  I would say it is unusual to have people greet you while walking on the street, but I wouldn't classify it as rude, even in NYC. 

And yes, the street vendors always are talking to you. I would guess at least 1 or 2 on the video were vendors & talk to everyone. Which is why another video showing a guy walking the same route would provide a lot more meaning to all this 'harassment' this girl receives.   

OK. But I personally don't chat up vendors in NYC or even my local mall when

they call out to me no matter how polite. They are doing it to get my attention so I buy.

When I don't want to buy or don't feel like interacting I say nothing.

For you that might be rude, but I think its a valid response to do nothing.

Its not like a co-worker or even fellow employee saying Hi as you wait to go through

security inside a corporate building in NYC.

Not sure where acknowledging someone = chat up in your mind.  Acknowledge can literally be as little as glancing their way & giving a nod. 

Although, I will say that street vendors, beggars, & crazy folk fall into a different category for me.  If you want to ignore those folks, I don't think that is necessarily rude.  I think not so much as a glance to someone passing by saying good morning is rude.  A person is reaching out for whatever reason, the least you could do is recognize their existence.

[The Captain]

Nov 4, 2014 12:53:39 GMT -5 ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ said:

Yes, I am "really into it". And yes, I've watched the video over and over. Were some of the guys creeps? Yes!! I've said that too. Is this street "typical" of most? NO!

Is the experiment realistic of society as a whole? Again, NO! Is it shining a bad light on the behavior of men in general? ABSOLUTELY!

You live in Canada and I live in NYC metro area. I have actually
walked the streets and seen these things to know that your assertions are incorrect.

Why should the fact that I live in Canada make a difference? Do you think we all live in tiny villages or igloos and life here is all peace & harmony?

SL - FWIW I agree with the point you are making except for the one I've underlined above.  There are different standards of behavior and what is considered acceptable in every country.  Now I think we can all agree that there should be certain universal standards, but there will always be regional differenced.

Take for example giving up the seat on a bus for an older, pregnant, or handicapped person.  I think everyone would agree that should be a basic standard of behavior.  BUT the older Chinese man I take the train with (who uses crutches and has a deformed leg) would never think of accepting a seat from a woman, that would be rude on his part (in his mind).  Yes, he will take a seat offered by a man.  Is he wrong?  Not by the standards of how he was raised.

Canadians are more polite and most ( ) are not as confrontational as Americans.  So, behaviors will be different in each country.   

[Virgil Showlion]

Nov 4, 2014 11:13:16 GMT -5 Bonny said:

Nov 4, 2014 10:41:52 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Nobody's claiming that men get called out nearly as often as women.

Of course, women have a million other ways of drawing attention to themselves.

... I think you're smart enough to know that either men or women can draw attention to themselves by either their dress or behavior.

I'm saying that if drawing the attention of the opposite sex constitutes "harassment", it isn't just comments and cat calls that we should be discussing in this thread. If a group of women are glancing over at a handsome man not-so-furtively and laughing, or one of them waves to him, are they harassing him? If not, why? They're using social cues they know perfectly well mean "We find you attractive and we want to talk to you." According to some posters here, such unsolicited advances constitute harassment ipso facto.

Nov 4, 2014 11:13:16 GMT -5 Bonny said:

Nov 4, 2014 10:41:52 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Nobody's claiming that men get called out nearly as often as women.

Of course, women have a million other ways of drawing attention to themselves.

One of the points about the video is that the woman was not dressed provocatively, not engaging in eye contact and simply walking through the area as if she had a destination in mind.

She's not exactly a bag lady.

She's young, fit, reasonably attractive, fine-featured. She's wearing high-end tight-fitting clothes, and her hair is long and styled. For somebody walking around the ghetto for ten hours straight, how much more provocative does she have to get to attract at least a few dozen suitors?

Make her a fat 40-year-old with sunken eyes and a bad complexion, stick her in a baggy jogging suit, then rerun the experiment and see how many cat calls she gets.

[Angel!]

Nov 4, 2014 13:57:26 GMT -5 Cookies Galore said:

Nov 4, 2014 12:39:53 GMT -5 Angel! said:

How so?

By acknowledging a total stranger on the street you're extending an invitation for them to continue speaking to you. I generally don't engage anyone on the street. Because that "hi" is followed by "what's your name? Can I call you? What's wrong? Why don't you smile more? You'd be prettier if you smiled." It's annoying as shit and I shouldn't have to "be nice" because some random stranger wants me to. When it happens often enough it ceases to be nice.

In general, no you aren't.

Maybe because you choose not to engage with anyone so you don't realize how it usually goes. But if you are walking in opposite directions & someone says 'have a nice evening', responding with 'you too' is not going to cause the person to about-face & suddenly start trying to talk to you. Those guys sitting when she passed would not have hopped up to follow if she glanced & nodded at them.

The 2 creepy guys that followed her probably would have seen it as an invitation, but they clearly thought that it was ok to follow her even though she wasn't speaking to them.  So they aren't a good example as to what happens when you bother to acknowledge someone greeted you because she never even acknowledged them. 

[ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ]

Nov 4, 2014 13:16:08 GMT -5 Opti said:

Having problems quoting parts of SL's post and pasting from Wiki, so

feel free to find links.

Toronto is the most populous city in Canada at about 2.6 or 2.79 million depending

on whose numbers you use. It is 243.24 sq miles. NYC has a population of roughly 8.4

million and 305 sq miles. If you crunch the numbers just on residents alone Toronto is

less than half as populous than NYC. The metro areas from which commuters may come in

from work similarly are quite different - around 6 mil for Toronto and 19 million for NYC.

Add in 55 million annual visitors to NYC and whatever Toronto's numbers are the

gap would widen even more. Toronto is on a most liveable cities list. I'd be surprised

to ever see NYC there. The sheer numbers in a small area is what makes it different.

Roving around NYC during Rush is different than other times except generally certain

areas on a Saturday.

They are less similar than you think and Toronto is #4 or #5 most populous city in

North America FWIW.

Why should the location or city - or size of the city and its population make a difference? You're saying that since we don't live in NYC, we can't possibly understand.

You don't think that incidents like the one in the video don't happen in almost any large city, or town, or hamlet? Or that they don't have districts that look like the one in the video - or people who act like the men in the video?

Incidents like this happen everywhere - and almost anywhere in the world. Large cities, or small. What's bothering me, is that the majority of you are blaming it on men and their behavior. And you're lumping ALL men into the same heap as the goons in the video.

The behavior of the men in the video isn't even realistically typical of the behavior of the majority of the male population.

Talk about stereotyping!

What about the women I mentioned earlier - who work as hookers, streetwalkers, call-girls or strippers/lap-dancers? Aren't they helping perpetuate the problem? They're giving cues to men that we're just property, or useful for a roll in the hay, or an object to ogle, leer at or grope.

Why isn't anyone putting some of the blame on them? The men here (just on this one forum) are taking a tongue-lashing just because they're men - and you're not valuing or reading their input - because "how can they possibly know what it's like to be a woman?"

You don't think they have mothers, wives, daughters, sisters, etc?

[The Captain]

Nov 4, 2014 14:06:12 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Nov 4, 2014 11:13:16 GMT -5 Bonny said:

... I think you're smart enough to know that either men or women can draw attention to themselves by either their dress or behavior.

I'm saying that if drawing the attention of the opposite sex constitutes "harassment", it isn't just comments and cat calls that we should be discussing in this thread. If a group of women are glancing over at a handsome man not-so-furtively and laughing, or one of them waves to him, are they harassing him? If not, why? They're using social cues they know perfectly well mean "We find you attractive and we want to talk to you." According to some posters here, such unsolicited advances constitute harassment ipso facto.

Nov 4, 2014 11:13:16 GMT -5 Bonny said:

One of the points about the video is that the woman was not dressed provocatively, not engaging in eye contact and simply walking through the area as if she had a destination in mind.

She's not exactly a bag lady.

She's young, fit, reasonably attractive, fine-featured. She's wearing high-end tight-fitting clothes, and her hair is long and styled. For somebody walking around the ghetto for ten hours straight, how much more provocative does she have to get to attract at least a few dozen suitors?

Make her a fat 40-year-old with sunken eyes and a bad complexion, stick her in a baggy jogging suit, then rerun the experiment and see how many cat calls she gets.

How about an upper 40 something, pudgy, greying haired woman in a non form-fitting business suit? Trust me Virgil, I'm no looker and the cat calls and stuff aren't because I'm putting out "I'm available" vibes. It's just a few select men trying to make themselves feel better in some way that I likely will never understand.

Do I think it's poor behavior?  Yes.  Do I blame all men? No.  Did I "ask for it" in any way?  Oh Hell's no!!!

Saying a person's appearance invites poor behavior on the part of others is not a winning argument my friend .

[Cookies Galore]

Nov 4, 2014 14:10:38 GMT -5 Angel! said:

Nov 4, 2014 13:57:26 GMT -5 Cookies Galore said:

By acknowledging a total stranger on the street you're extending an invitation for them to continue speaking to you. I generally don't engage anyone on the street. Because that "hi" is followed by "what's your name? Can I call you? What's wrong? Why don't you smile more? You'd be prettier if you smiled." It's annoying as shit and I shouldn't have to "be nice" because some random stranger wants me to. When it happens often enough it ceases to be nice.

In general, no you aren't.

Maybe because you choose not to engage with anyone so you don't realize how it usually goes. But if you are walking in opposite directions & someone says 'have a nice evening', responding with 'you too' is not going to cause the person to about-face & suddenly start trying to talk to you. Those guys sitting when she passed would not have hopped up to follow if she glanced & nodded at them.

The 2 creepy guys that followed her probably would have seen it as an invitation, but they clearly thought that it was ok to follow her even though she wasn't speaking to them.  So they aren't a good example as to what happens when you bother to acknowledge someone greeted you because she never even acknowledged them. 

Obviously our experiences are different because the about face DOES happen.

[Angel!]

Nov 4, 2014 14:21:29 GMT -5 Cookies Galore said:

Nov 4, 2014 14:10:38 GMT -5 Angel! said:

In general, no you aren't.

Maybe because you choose not to engage with anyone so you don't realize how it usually goes. But if you are walking in opposite directions & someone says 'have a nice evening', responding with 'you too' is not going to cause the person to about-face & suddenly start trying to talk to you. Those guys sitting when she passed would not have hopped up to follow if she glanced & nodded at them.

The 2 creepy guys that followed her probably would have seen it as an invitation, but they clearly thought that it was ok to follow her even though she wasn't speaking to them.  So they aren't a good example as to what happens when you bother to acknowledge someone greeted you because she never even acknowledged them. 

Obviously our experiences are different because the about face DOES happen.

Literally, never had it happen to me.  Maybe I'm not as beautiful as you