Woman Harrassed Simply By Walking in New York

[Deleted]

Nov 3, 2014 23:46:43 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Nov 3, 2014 22:26:29 GMT -5 ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ said:

So a store clerk (you'll consider that a poor example) but they ARE a stranger says "I like your coat", or "How are you doing today" is intimidating?

Better example: A construction worker welding beams, or maintenance man/street cleaner or someone using a jack-hammer tearing out a piece of sidewalk says to you in passing "Good Morning" or "Have a Nice Day", or " God Bless" - their intention is intimidation or harassment?

What about the panhandler on the corner who means no harm and is just looking for some loose change for his next six-pack? He may be down on his luck, a homeless alcoholic, or have a mental disorder, or dressed in shabby clothing, and he says "Good Morning, Miss" as you pass by. He's just sitting there hoping for a pittance of a handout and not bothering anyone, giving a friendly greeting as you pass. That's intimidating or threatening to you?

A lady on the subway platform the other day asked me about what I had "in the box"? (I was carrying a large box with me.)

I thought about flagging the transit cops, but she was between me and them, and I thought "if I just stand still and start whistling, it will all be over; it will all be over soon". By the time I was able to file a report, she was long gone.

I'll be damned if I'm going to ride the Toronto subway again, I can tell you that much.

That is pretty scary! I mean she talked to you, uninvited, and everything! The NERVE!    




(*Note: We really need that "sarcasm" emoticon!)

[Peace Of Mind]

I agree that most of those comments in the OP don't fall under the definition of harassment in general.  But in an abnormal situation to that person they could be construed as harassment if the atmosphere appears like it could turn contentious.  You have the right to determine that based on your own personal experiences regardless of what the dictionary states. 

Using a grocery store or an area where you feel safe is not a comparable example to what the OP was about IMO.  I get the point and agree with it in general but it's not comparable to being on some street with a bunch of people cat calling or saying things that can be taken as sexual in nature.  Following is just creepy and I think we all agree on that.   I do disagree that you should tell that person that you don't like it especially if they are a stranger.  They could be bat shit crazy and then it could turn ugly so the best defense is to ignore it.  Women are taught that at an early age where I come from among other things like the best place to ram a knee if things get out of control.  Eyes being jabbed by fingers or thumbs are also an option if they don't take no for an answer but I digress.   

I also agree that saying hello, etc. is not an offense, however, I also agree that you have the right to ignore said hello from a stranger you don't wish to communicate with.  I also agree that if you perceive a behavior or words as threatening, harassing or even uncomfortable the best way to handle it is to ignore it.  You don't have to reply if you don't want to.  In normal surroundings that may be rude but you still have that right.

It's up to each of us as an individual to handle a situation in the best way we feel is right under the circumstances so please stop trying to tell people how they should feel, act or what they should do if they confront an uncomfortable encounter if they already know what they would do.  It's their right regardless if you agree or not.  Don't make them second guess what they feel when it's their safety and not yours.  That split second doubt could be a matter of life and death. 

If you want to say hello say it.  If you want to ignore it ignore it.  If you want to discuss it until you are blue in the face discuss it.  But don't tell people they are wrong for how they feel.  That's unfair. 

  

 

[ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ]

I just watched the video again (for the umpteenth time). The woman was walking past buildings/stores that were either boarded up or had the huge metal slide-down security doors closed on the buildings (some painted with graffiti). I'm guessing this is an area where there isn't a lot of shopping traffic since so many of the stores or buildings were closed down or boarded up in broad daylight. (This was in the first 30-45 seconds of the video, and not when she was walking in the evening , or what appeared to be a secluded alleyway).

That's not typical of most neighborhoods.

Do I make myself aware of my surroundings as a lone female walking in public? Absolutely. No matter the environment. Do I believe that the video depicts the norm in our society? No.

[Shooby]

The "umpteenth" time? Wow, Lassie you are really, really into it.

[Deleted]

Nov 3, 2014 23:55:52 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

Nov 3, 2014 23:46:41 GMT -5 @tiki said:

But probably not your self yes?

Since I have yet to do it, that would be correct.

[Deleted]

Nov 3, 2014 23:46:43 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Nov 3, 2014 22:26:29 GMT -5 ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ said:

So a store clerk (you'll consider that a poor example) but they ARE a stranger says "I like your coat", or "How are you doing today" is intimidating?

Better example: A construction worker welding beams, or maintenance man/street cleaner or someone using a jack-hammer tearing out a piece of sidewalk says to you in passing "Good Morning" or "Have a Nice Day", or " God Bless" - their intention is intimidation or harassment?

What about the panhandler on the corner who means no harm and is just looking for some loose change for his next six-pack? He may be down on his luck, a homeless alcoholic, or have a mental disorder, or dressed in shabby clothing, and he says "Good Morning, Miss" as you pass by. He's just sitting there hoping for a pittance of a handout and not bothering anyone, giving a friendly greeting as you pass. That's intimidating or threatening to you?

A lady on the subway platform the other day asked me about what I had "in the box"? (I was carrying a large box with me.)

I thought about flagging the transit cops, but she was between me and them, and I thought "if I just stand still and start whistling, it will all be over; it will all be over soon". By the time I was able to file a report, she was long gone.

I'll be damned if I'm going to ride the Toronto subway again, I can tell you that much.

Ya because it is so exactly the same

[Angel!]

Nov 3, 2014 23:49:48 GMT -5 Shooby said:

So there has to be an indictment on Her politeness? Wow.

Seems disingenuous to have a commentary on how rude guys are while ignoring half the rude behavior was in response to her own rude behavior.

Doesn't excuse their behavior, but I find if I want to be treated with respect, it is best to be respectful of others.

[zibazinski]

SHE doesn't have to be respectful. SHE was minding her own business. THEY were not. THEY weren't being friendly, THEY were trying to "pull something." Obviously since plenty of people fell for their bs, they're successful at it. Trying to look all innocent, it's just HELLO, why SHE'S rude for not being friendly and saying HELLO back. Way to turn it on the victim and try to make yourselves look all innocent, when you're not.

[Shooby]

Nov 4, 2014 7:52:05 GMT -5 Angel! said:

Nov 3, 2014 23:49:48 GMT -5 Shooby said:

So there has to be an indictment on Her politeness? Wow.

Seems disingenuous to have a commentary on how rude guys are while ignoring half the rude behavior was in response to her own rude behavior.

Doesn't excuse their behavior, but I find if I want to be treated with respect, it is best to be respectful of others.

She didn't initiate the rudeness.  She was simply walking and minding her own business.  She has no obligation to these peopel whatsoever. 

[Shooby]

Nov 4, 2014 8:55:46 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

SHE doesn't have to be respectful. SHE was minding her own business. THEY were not. THEY weren't being friendly, THEY were trying to "pull something." Obviously since plenty of people fell for their bs, they're successful at it. Trying to look all innocent, it's just HELLO, why SHE'S rude for not being friendly and saying HELLO back. Way to turn it on the victim and try to make yourselves look all innocent, when you're not.

Yes, they can demand that she perform in some way according to their standards.  By not engaging them back, then she is not performing to their standards.   SHe didn't ask anything of them except to leave her the hell alone.

[Bonny]

Nov 4, 2014 8:55:46 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

SHE doesn't have to be respectful. SHE was minding her own business. THEY were not. THEY weren't being friendly, THEY were trying to "pull something." Obviously since plenty of people fell for their bs, they're successful at it. Trying to look all innocent, it's just HELLO, why SHE'S rude for not being friendly and saying HELLO back. Way to turn it on the victim and try to make yourselves look all innocent, when you're not.

It would have been helpful to have had a second video with a man about the same age as the actress as the walker and to record how many times he was "greeted".

Or a video of a young man and the actress walking together and recording how many "comments" are made to them.

I think it would be eye-opening to some posters on how few of these "greeters" would make any comments in the above situations.

[Virgil Showlion]

Nov 4, 2014 7:37:29 GMT -5 @tiki said:

Nov 3, 2014 23:46:43 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

A lady on the subway platform the other day asked me about what I had "in the box"? (I was carrying a large box with me.)

I thought about flagging the transit cops, but she was between me and them, and I thought "if I just stand still and start whistling, it will all be over; it will all be over soon". By the time I was able to file a report, she was long gone.

I'll be damned if I'm going to ride the Toronto subway again, I can tell you that much.

Ya because it is so exactly the same

You're honestly going to mock me?

What right does this total stranger have to interrogate me on the subway platform? By what right does she demand to know the private contents of my box?

She started harassing me completely unprovoked. I remember jerking a bit because of the shock. If I had been a bit closer to the edge of the platform, the weight of the box could easily have upset me and I'd have fallen six feet to track level in the path of an oncoming train.

As Shooby says, people don't talk to you on the street because they're trying to be friendly or flattering, or because they're trying to strike up a conversation. They do it to intimidate you, and this woman's intimidation would have cost me my life had the circumstances been slightly different. If the situation was caught on video (it wasn't, unfortunately), a prosecutor could make a good case for attempted murder. And they damn well should prosecute her because I don't feel safe taking the subway anymore.

So I resent your little sarcastic smiley. It seems like everytime somebody who's been victimized comes to this board, the only thing we get is people downplaying the severity of the crime. "Oh, calm down, Virgil. She was probably trying to be friendly." Bull crap. Get into the real world. You don't justify harassment and intimidation. You don't make excuses for the perpetrators and drive the victims underground.

I'm so upset now. I'm not sure if I can post in this thread anymore.

[Green Eyed Lady]

I'm not so sure about that.  If I'm judging by the women I go out with, there are things said.  Not as loudly, mind you, but they are said.  Tell me you've never seen a nice looking man walk by and whisper, "Wow.  Nice butt." to one of your friends. 

[Virgil Showlion]

Nov 4, 2014 10:34:52 GMT -5 Bonny said:

Nov 4, 2014 8:55:46 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

SHE doesn't have to be respectful. SHE was minding her own business. THEY were not. THEY weren't being friendly, THEY were trying to "pull something." Obviously since plenty of people fell for their bs, they're successful at it. Trying to look all innocent, it's just HELLO, why SHE'S rude for not being friendly and saying HELLO back. Way to turn it on the victim and try to make yourselves look all innocent, when you're not.

It would have been helpful to have had a second video with a man about the same age as the actress as the walker and to record how many times he was "greeted".

Or a video of a young man and the actress walking together and recording how many "comments" are made to them.

I think it would be eye-opening to some posters on how few of these "greeters" would make any comments in the above situations.

Nobody's claiming that men get called out nearly as often as women.

Of course, women have a million other ways of drawing attention to themselves.

[Deleted]

Nov 4, 2014 10:39:14 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Nov 4, 2014 7:37:29 GMT -5 @tiki said:

Ya because it is so exactly the same

You're honestly going to mock me?

What right does this total stranger have to interrogate me on the subway platform? By what right does she demand to know the private contents of my box?

She started harassing me completely unprovoked. I remember jerking a bit because of the shock. If I had been a bit closer to the edge of the platform, the weight of the box could easily have upset me and I'd have fallen six feet to track level in the path of an oncoming train.

As Shooby says, people don't talk to you on the street because they're trying to be friendly or flattering, or because they're trying to strike up a conversation. They do it to intimidate you, and this woman's intimidation would have cost me my life had the circumstances been slightly different. If the situation was caught on video (it wasn't, unfortunately), a prosecutor could make a good case for attempted murder. And they damn well should prosecute her because I don't feel safe taking the subway anymore.

So I resent your little sarcastic smiley. It seems like everytime somebody who's been victimized comes to this board, the only thing we get is people downplaying the severity of the crime. "Oh, calm down, Virgil. She was probably trying to be friendly." Bull crap. Get into the real world. You don't justify harassment and intimidation. You don't make excuses for the perpetrators and drive the victims underground.

I'm so upset now. I'm not sure if I can post in this thread anymore.

Oh if you write 10x more and snarky then its gonna make it same

[Deleted]

Nov 4, 2014 10:39:39 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

I'm not so sure about that.  If I'm judging by the women I go out with, there are things said.  Not as loudly, mind you, but they are said.  Tell me you've never seen a nice looking man walk by and whisper, "Wow.  Nice butt." to one of your friends. 

If you whisper at your friend its not harassed him if he didn't no it

[Green Eyed Lady]

Nov 4, 2014 10:47:01 GMT -5 @tiki said:

Nov 4, 2014 10:39:39 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

I'm not so sure about that.  If I'm judging by the women I go out with, there are things said.  Not as loudly, mind you, but they are said.  Tell me you've never seen a nice looking man walk by and whisper, "Wow.  Nice butt." to one of your friends. 

If you whisper at your friend its not harassed him if he didn't no it

So as long as that poor guy doesn't actually hear your bad behavior - it's not bad behavior?

[mmhmm]

Nov 3, 2014 23:58:28 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

Nov 3, 2014 23:46:43 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

A lady on the subway platform the other day asked me about what I had "in the box"? (I was carrying a large box with me.)

I thought about flagging the transit cops, but she was between me and them, and I thought "if I just stand still and start whistling, it will all be over; it will all be over soon". By the time I was able to file a report, she was long gone.

I'll be damned if I'm going to ride the Toronto subway again, I can tell you that much.

That is pretty scary! I mean she talked to you, uninvited, and everything! The NERVE!    




(*Note: We really need that "sarcasm" emoticon!)

No, we don't. A stupidity icon might be more relevant.

[Deleted]

Nov 4, 2014 10:49:10 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

Nov 4, 2014 10:47:01 GMT -5 @tiki said:

If you whisper at your friend its not harassed him if he didn't no it

So as long as that poor guy doesn't actually hear your bad behavior - it's not bad behavior?

It is bad behavior but it does not harass him or scare him

[Angel!]

Nov 4, 2014 9:08:55 GMT -5 Shooby said:

Nov 4, 2014 8:55:46 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

SHE doesn't have to be respectful. SHE was minding her own business. THEY were not. THEY weren't being friendly, THEY were trying to "pull something." Obviously since plenty of people fell for their bs, they're successful at it. Trying to look all innocent, it's just HELLO, why SHE'S rude for not being friendly and saying HELLO back. Way to turn it on the victim and try to make yourselves look all innocent, when you're not.

Yes, they can demand that she perform in some way according to their standards.  By not engaging them back, then she is not performing to their standards.   SHe didn't ask anything of them except to leave her the hell alone.

There exists a sort of societal contract on how people should act & what is consider rude vs polite behavior.  It is considered rude to not hold the door for someone behind you.  It is considered rude to not thank the person that held open the door.  It is considered rude for a young person to not give up their seat on the subway for someone infirm.  It would be rude for the person taking the seat to not thank the person that gave it up. 

We don't live in a vacuum, we interact with those in the world around us whether or not we want to.  In all the cases above, it would be rude to not perform a certain expected behavior.  It doesn't matter if you are minding your own business or what you are doing, it would still be rude to not do these things.

Likewise, ignoring a person who has greeted you is rude.  You can pretend it isn't & make out like she is some sort of victim, but that isn't the case.  She was walking, someone said 'good morning', she ignored them.  No matter how you frame it, that is absolutely rude on her part.

[Angel!]

Nov 4, 2014 10:39:14 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Nov 4, 2014 7:37:29 GMT -5 @tiki said:

Ya because it is so exactly the same

You're honestly going to mock me?

What right does this total stranger have to interrogate me on the subway platform? By what right does she demand to know the private contents of my box?

She started harassing me completely unprovoked. I remember jerking a bit because of the shock. If I had been a bit closer to the edge of the platform, the weight of the box could easily have upset me and I'd have fallen six feet to track level in the path of an oncoming train.

As Shooby says, people don't talk to you on the street because they're trying to be friendly or flattering, or because they're trying to strike up a conversation. They do it to intimidate you, and this woman's intimidation would have cost me my life had the circumstances been slightly different. If the situation was caught on video (it wasn't, unfortunately), a prosecutor could make a good case for attempted murder. And they damn well should prosecute her because I don't feel safe taking the subway anymore.

So I resent your little sarcastic smiley. It seems like everytime somebody who's been victimized comes to this board, the only thing we get is people downplaying the severity of the crime. "Oh, calm down, Virgil. She was probably trying to be friendly." Bull crap. Get into the real world. You don't justify harassment and intimidation. You don't make excuses for the perpetrators and drive the victims underground.

I'm so upset now. I'm not sure if I can post in this thread anymore.

As much as virgil is taking this way over the top, I agree with him.  A stranger speaking to him is no different than a stranger speaking to this woman.  Someone saying 'good morning' or asking a simple question is not harassing another person.  What has society become when we jump on people who dare to speak to a stranger?

[Bonny]

Nov 4, 2014 10:41:52 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Nov 4, 2014 10:34:52 GMT -5 Bonny said:

It would have been helpful to have had a second video with a man about the same age as the actress as the walker and to record how many times he was "greeted".

Or a video of a young man and the actress walking together and recording how many "comments" are made to them.

I think it would be eye-opening to some posters on how few of these "greeters" would make any comments in the above situations.

Nobody's claiming that men get called out nearly as often as women.

Of course, women have a million other ways of drawing attention to themselves.

Actually some people are. They keep saying the attention is just "friendly". If they were just "friendly" they would do it to males and couples as frequently a young woman alone.

And the sentence I just bolded is sexist. I think you're smart enough to know that either men or women can draw attention to themselves by either their dress or behavior.

One of the points about the video is that the woman was not dressed provocatively, not engaging in eye contact and simply walking through the area as if she had a destination in mind.

[Green Eyed Lady]

Nov 4, 2014 10:56:04 GMT -5 @tiki said:

Nov 4, 2014 10:49:10 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

So as long as that poor guy doesn't actually hear your bad behavior - it's not bad behavior?

It is bad behavior but it does not harass him or scare him

Agreed.  Nor would it harass or scare me - even if I heard it - but that's beside the point.  Everyone is different.

"Harassment" is a legal term.  It is a criminal offense (under most assault sections, I believe).  It can also be brought to civil court.  I think that might be the whole jist of the argument here.  Nobody is saying the behavior isn't poor, nobody is condoning it and nobody is saying that men shouldn't knock it off.  And nobody is saying that a women doesn't have the right to be offended and even scared if that's how she feels.  I think what people are saying is that most of what was said in that video wasn't harassment.

Let's say that woman decided to go the police station and ask that harassment charges be filed against one of the guys who said, "Gooood morning, Beautiful!"  What do you think would happen?  Cause I know what would happen.  She would be told that while the guy has no right to comment on her looks, it isn't harassment and nobody is going to go out and arrest him.  I believe that's the only point that people are trying to make here.  She could take her case to civil court and guess what?  Same thing.

As I've said before, the guy following her was creepy and the guy saying he was ugly was creepy.  That's a whole different story, but were two examples in the 100 portrayed as being just awful harassment.  There may have been a couple more, but I watched the video a couple of days ago and those were the two examples that struck me.

[Opti]

Nov 4, 2014 0:54:56 GMT -5 ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ said:

I just watched the video again (for the umpteenth time). The woman was walking past buildings/stores that were either boarded up or had the huge metal slide-down security doors closed on the buildings (some painted with graffiti). I'm guessing this is an area where there isn't a lot of shopping traffic since so many of the stores or buildings were closed down or boarded up in broad daylight. (This was in the first 30-45 seconds of the video, and not when she was walking in the evening , or what appeared to be a secluded alleyway).

That's not typical of most neighborhoods.

Do I make myself aware of my surroundings as a lone female walking in public? Absolutely. No matter the environment. Do I believe that the video depicts the norm in our society? No.

You live in Canada and I live in NYC metro area. I have actually

walked the streets and seen these things to know that your assertions are incorrect.

There are one or two boarded up buildings with the usual shortened sidewalk as

this is how construction and renovation is done in New York. If you do any significant

walking at all in the city, you are going to encounter it again and again. And if you

watch again, people putting up flyers on the plywood is another extremely common thing.

I don't know anywhere where stores automatically open where it is daylight and since

the average store opening time is 10AM during the week, yep if you are out at 7-9:30AM

you will see those doors down. If they are a specialty store sometimes they are down again

anytime after 5 or 6PM. Given she wasn't wearing a jacket this was likely filmed in August

or September when there still was significant light.

I know its hard to accept the truth. No alleyways are in the video. No bad areas are depicted.

And yes people who walk through NYC often need to walk around boarded up buildings where

the sidewalk supports maybe two people side by side. The video is not trying to be the norm

in your society. It is a slice of life in NYC. If you do any research like read some of the other

links I have posted, these organizations have sprung up in cities including one in Atlanta for

black girls. If you don't live in a similar urban environment this might not apply much or at

all to your daily life.

[Deleted]

DH and I talked about this, and actually had a rare head bang session for a while.  He was perplexed, because he felt that people whistling or commenting on body parts was purely positive from all sides.  When I explained an alternate view, he was upset and felt that all men were treated as dangers.  It took a while to hear each other.


He heard me better when he realized simple attention from strangers does cause a bit of extra caution for him too, particularly if the attention is from much bigger people or groups.  A couple days ago DH and I were walking in the park, and a large stranger offered us some cookies and juice or coffee from a table on the opposite side of the path from him.  It was friendly.  But DH admitted he got cautious/hesitated a little at first while he assessed what was going on.  It was a stranger specifically halting us in our walk, much rarer for DH.  


Attention and offers from strangers are not panic situations, but it is basic protocol for both genders to quickly assess "why, how many, any problems?" especially if the attention is from much bigger people or groups.   Extra alertness because people are commenting on your body specifically can be draining.  It's basic common sense to assess.  When people trust totally on face value, people question their judgement.

For personal experience: I am not pretty.  I didn't crawl of out a lagoon, but I am not classically beautiful and don't wear any makeup.  But I was often honked at, whistled at, and several different people pulled over and rolled down their windows or got out to offer me rides when I was a freshman in college and would walk to the grocery store a couple miles away.  I wear full length pants and at the time usually wore an old military coat with frankly ragged athletic shoes.  I was not dressed to attract.  But by walking alone, I did get a lot of attention that made me pause and glance around to assess what was going on.  I also sorted out how to politely refuse offers for rides when people pulled up next to me.

It was probably all friendly, including the people pulling up to give me rides.  

But people would question my sanity if I assumed the strangers were likely totally safe and I got in the cars.  Whistles and honks are lesser, but it still required a quick run through of the situation if the people initiating are big or a lot of them.  Students get told statistics like 1 in 6 women experience rape or attempted rape in their lifetimes, told cautions and protocols for party safety, cautions for going to dark parking lots, all sorts of cautions generally for a reason.  It seems prudent to be somewhat extra aware if a stranger is commenting on body parts.  Not freak out style, but I find it is enough to add a thin layer of stress if it keeps happening repeatedly on walks to do basic things.  

I'd rather not receive body comments if someone is just trying to be friendly.  Chatter is fine.  Many people come and talk to me or ask for directions.  When I'm really happy and beaming I make eye contact and smile and nod at strangers while I pass, just happy.  But loud body comments create a more in depth assessment for various factors when not in a gathering place.   People can certainly privately think whatever they want, but if the shouts and louder comments are honestly meant to be positive, in my experience they often just make people a bit edgy.

Just my sense of things.

[Angel!]

OK, I was curious & went through the video & counted interactions & rated them. 10 hours of walking in NYC & passing I am guessing hundreds, if not thousands of folks & we have 24 guys talking to her on this video.  This is how I rated them:

- Friendly (good morning, have a nice evening) - 9

- Inappropriate (damn, just saw a thousand dollars) - 10

- Creepy (the guys that wouldn't leave her alone) - 2

- Rude in response to her ignoring them - 3

So about 50/50 in what I would consider a polite greeting vs inappropriate.  The 2 guys were hella creepy, but they may have left her alone far sooner if she just said something.

So she walked for 10 hours in one of the most crowded cities in our country & 12 people were inappropriate. Not good, but not the massive problem some are making it out to be.

And I agree that just this film means nothing.  Actual research would include men vs women walking the same route & different attire.

[Opti]

There exists a sort of societal contract on how people should act & what is consider rude vs polite behavior. It is considered rude to not hold the door for someone behind you. It is considered rude to not thank the person that held open the door. It is considered rude for a young person to not give up their seat on the subway for someone infirm. It would be rude for the person taking the seat to not thank the person that gave it up.

Angel!

The societal contract is not a fixed thing US wide, North Amercan wide, nor even necessarily

agreed to by the constant stream of immigrants or H1B Visa holders that come to this country.

The contract is location specific. And expecting the above in NYC you are going to get disappointed.

Other women give up their seats far more often for pregnant women and the elderly. NYC

culture is such that one rarely strikes up conversations with strangers unless you start seeing

them on the bus or subway train regularly when you ride it.

The more crowded a place is, the less civil it tends to be. I don't know if its against the

social contract in NYC, but saying hello to anyone walking by is not usual behavior unless

it is a street vendor trying to draw your attention to his wares. Probably a bit more acceptable

to chat while waiting for a stoplight to change, however at a peak time you might have 20 to 40

people packed up on each side of the street.

[Shooby]

Nov 4, 2014 11:03:03 GMT -5 Angel! said:

Nov 4, 2014 9:08:55 GMT -5 Shooby said:

Yes, they can demand that she perform in some way according to their standards.  By not engaging them back, then she is not performing to their standards.   SHe didn't ask anything of them except to leave her the hell alone.

There exists a sort of societal contract on how people should act & what is consider rude vs polite behavior.  It is considered rude to not hold the door for someone behind you.  It is considered rude to not thank the person that held open the door.  It is considered rude for a young person to not give up their seat on the subway for someone infirm.  It would be rude for the person taking the seat to not thank the person that gave it up. 

We don't live in a vacuum, we interact with those in the world around us whether or not we want to.  In all the cases above, it would be rude to not perform a certain expected behavior.  It doesn't matter if you are minding your own business or what you are doing, it would still be rude to not do these things.

Likewise, ignoring a person who has greeted you is rude.  You can pretend it isn't & make out like she is some sort of victim, but that isn't the case.  She was walking, someone said 'good morning', she ignored them.  No matter how you frame it, that is absolutely rude on her part.

Yes, and a man walking up closely behind you and following you is NOT part of that societal contract.  Neither are comments, catcalling or whatever.  

[Shooby]

Nov 4, 2014 11:30:45 GMT -5 Angel! said:

OK, I was curious & went through the video & counted interactions & rated them. 10 hours of walking in NYC & passing I am guessing hundreds, if not thousands of folks & we have 24 guys talking to her on this video.  This is how I rated them:

- Friendly (good morning, have a nice evening) - 9

- Inappropriate (damn, just saw a thousand dollars) - 10

- Creepy (the guys that wouldn't leave her alone) - 2

- Rude in response to her ignoring them - 3

So about 50/50 in what I would consider a polite greeting vs inappropriate.  The 2 guys were hella creepy, but they may have left her alone far sooner if she just said something.

So she walked for 10 hours in one of the most crowded cities in our country & 12 people were inappropriate. Not good, but not the massive problem some are making it out to be.

And I agree that just this film means nothing.  Actual research would include men vs women walking the same route & different attire.

Yeah, i would say that a 50% creepy/inappropriate encounter is pretty darn high.

[Angel!]

Nov 4, 2014 11:35:52 GMT -5 Opti said:

There exists a sort of societal contract on how people should act & what is consider rude vs polite behavior. It is considered rude to not hold the door for someone behind you. It is considered rude to not thank the person that held open the door. It is considered rude for a young person to not give up their seat on the subway for someone infirm. It would be rude for the person taking the seat to not thank the person that gave it up.

Angel!

The societal contract is not a fixed thing US wide, North Amercan wide, nor even necessarily

agreed to by the constant stream of immigrants or H1B Visa holders that come to this country.

This is true. Personally, I think it is extremely rude to not acknowledge someone speaking to you.  At least a few in the video would agree with me.  I don't think that perception is terribly location dependent.  If we were arguing about personal space or kiss on cheek vs handshake, then it would totally be location dependent...but, responding to 'good morning', not so much.

Do you believe that ignoring someone that greeted you is polite?