Woman Harrassed Simply By Walking in New York

[Opti]

I'm well endowed. Most of my shirts are knits. While I don't choose the sprayed

on look, my choice is t-shirts that emphasize my shape especially chest or

to look like an over-weight uncaring shlub. Given clothing sizes and no money

for a custom wardrobe, I pick option number one.

As an actress, my guess is she picks that too. While I pick less form-fitting

jeans, I don't feel she's excessive given jeggings, leggings, and skinny jeans

are very popular fashion choices right now.

[Opti]

perhaps you can clarify for us what exactly you believe is motivating these men.

Bills has modified my thinking on this. I've decided what I believed to be true

might not be. Too many potential issues cultural and societal.

ETA: I believe Tiki about India. I've heard some stories from male co-workers.

[zibazinski]

Nov 3, 2014 20:03:51 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

Nov 3, 2014 16:48:50 GMT -5 siralynn said:

The arguments against the video in this thread serve to illustrate exactly why videos and discussions like this are needed. Guys deny it exists. A video gets made to illustrate it. Guys still deny it exists. Baffling.

Individual instances of cat-calling don't have any power over me. I've gotten so good at ignoring people in public that I usually don't even notice when people are trying to get my attention for a legitimate reason. (There was one time a couple of years ago that I was walking through San Francisco with my husband. Got to the next cross-walk and realized he wasn't with me. He was jogging to catch up from about a half a block back and was genuinely baffled that I hadn't noticed that some other people had tried to stop us to ask for directions.)

But nothing is going to change if ingrained cultural behavior isn't challenged. Cat-calling certainly isn't the most serious problem facing women in this culture, but it's definitely one of the visible examples of the pervasive sexism that's still affecting everything.

I like the rule that someone else listed somewhere upthread - if you wouldn't say it to a man you respected, shut up.

I don't deny the video exists. I don't deny harassing exists.

The problem with THIS VIDEO is that it doesn't show harassment.

I think it does. As a woman, it gets very old. But you keep on thinking it's just "friendly."

[zibazinski]

Nov 3, 2014 19:42:06 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

And FWIW, I believe there will always be an expectation in western society that if a young(-ish) woman is dressed up in make-up and tight fitting clothes, walking down the street unaccompanied, she'll be amenable to (or at least tolerant of) whistles, compliments, cat calls, etc.

You can try to change this standard and you'll fail. You can make a point of rebuking cat callers, but you'll be rowing against the floodwaters. In that light, my advice would be to dress modestly or professionally, avoid the grittier parts of town when possible, and find whatever solace you can in the fact that some yahoo finds you physically attractive.

And if you want somebody who's been following you for ten minutes to buzz off... tell him to buzz off.

Good grief. 

[ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ]

As an actress, my guess is she picks that too. While I pick less form-fitting
jeans, I don't feel she's excessive given jeggings, leggings, and skinny jeans
are very popular fashion choices right now.

And after watching the video you don't think that the creators chose this particular actress, asked her to wear a specific type of clothing? Tight-fitting t-shirt and jeans? No jacket - full make-up, nicely styled hair, etc?

As opposed to a more rotund, skinny, younger or older model/actress dressed in a baggy sweatshirt, loose-fitting pants and no make-up?

Do you think the women I described in the second paragraph would have gotten the same attention as the first?

It was rigged to draw attention to her - based on her clothing, her age, her appearance overall, and walking through a (rather run-down) area predominately occupied by men hanging out with nothing better to do than ogle females.

A flawed test, trying to portray (most) men in society as pigs. Have I encountered men like the ones in the video? Yes. Did it happen every few feet? No. Is it common? Again, no. Probably not even in NYC. In certain areas of any large metropolis? Possibly and probably. But it's an unrealistic depiction of western society and their behavior overall.

[zibazinski]

No, I don't think so but you believe what you want. She wasn't all that pretty or hot but not all that ugly either. In other words, she looked pretty normal. She wasn't fat, neither was she skinny. Gee whiz, her hair looked nice. I never go out in public without trying to look as much as a 10 that I can. I guess I'm just asking for it by doing that. 

[Deleted]

Nov 3, 2014 21:02:12 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

Nov 3, 2014 20:03:51 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

I don't deny the video exists. I don't deny harassing exists.

The problem with THIS VIDEO is that it doesn't show harassment.

I think it does. As a woman, it gets very old. But you keep on thinking it's just "friendly."

You can think the sky is green too... won't make that reality either.

About half of the video was "just friendly" the other half (except the ONE guy that kept walking with her) is COMMENTS (none of them even vulgar or insulting).

Comments are NOT harassment.

Here's another take that COULD be reasonably taken from the same exact video. Because this woman was acting like one... all woman are cold unfriendly bitches.

Now, personally, I don't believe that. But it's in the video so it must be true... right? I mean we saw two minutes of her being a cold unfriendly bitch... so all women must be that way... right?


My point is: People are making of this video what they WANT to make of it... and not seeing what's really there: She was an actress, she was told (or decided) to walk a certain way down a specific set of streets that would get a specific outcome for her video. Period. That's it. That's all the video ACTUALLY shows. As ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ pointed out several times... change the location, and the whole concept would likely fall apart.

[zibazinski]

Comments are harassment and no one has the right to make them to a stranger. It's meant to intimidate and it does. I like the idea that women who don't respond to harassment are perceived as cold bitches. Maybe that will work because ignoring them sure doesn't. Just because we are women does not give men the right to say whatever the hell they feel like saying to us and we just have to " accept it." Cripe.  Sorry you think its has to be rape threats to be Real harassment. 

[Cookies Galore]

Nov 3, 2014 21:03:31 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

Nov 3, 2014 19:42:06 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

And FWIW, I believe there will always be an expectation in western society that if a young(-ish) woman is dressed up in make-up and tight fitting clothes, walking down the street unaccompanied, she'll be amenable to (or at least tolerant of) whistles, compliments, cat calls, etc.

You can try to change this standard and you'll fail. You can make a point of rebuking cat callers, but you'll be rowing against the floodwaters. In that light, my advice would be to dress modestly or professionally, avoid the grittier parts of town when possible, and find whatever solace you can in the fact that some yahoo finds you physically attractive.

And if you want somebody who's been following you for ten minutes to buzz off... tell him to buzz off.

Good grief. 

Seriously.

[Shooby]

So it's her fault for nit responding properly to unwanted attention and harassment? Why should she have to respond at all? She was simply walking. She has no obligation to respond to them at all.

[Angel!]

Nov 3, 2014 21:31:02 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

Comments are harassment and no one has the right to make them to a stranger. It's meant to intimidate and it does. I like the idea that women who don't respond to harassment are perceived as cold bitches. Maybe that will work because ignoring them sure doesn't. Just because we are women does not give men the right to say whatever the hell they feel like saying to us and we just have to " accept it." Cripe.  Sorry you think its has to be rape threats to be Real harassment. 

what do you consider a person when they ignore a friendly 'good morning'? Some of those comments were rude and insulting. But, I consider her behavior towards some of those people just as rude.

All those guys in the video were just people too with feelings. Many were just trying to be nice. Have we completely lost the ability to recognize strangers as people rather than someone always out to get us? It takes literally no time or energy to return a smile or greeting. Half the rude comments in the video would not have been made had she not rudely walked by without acknowledging that a fellow human being spoke to her. That does not excuse the comments, but can one really be surprised when rude behavior is responded to with rude behavior?

[Deleted]

Nov 3, 2014 21:31:02 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

Comments are harassment and no one has the right to make them to a stranger. It's meant to intimidate and it does. I like the idea that women who don't respond to harassment are perceived as cold bitches. Maybe that will work because ignoring them sure doesn't. Just because we are women does not give men the right to say whatever the hell they feel like saying to us and we just have to " accept it." Cripe.  Sorry you think its has to be rape threats to be Real harassment. 

Comments are not harassment. Repeatedly saying that they are will not magically make them become so.

To be "real" (your term) harassment, it has to be pressure or intimidation. 100% of the COMMENTS in that video were neither.

None of the comments in that video were "meant to intimidate"... hell, half of them were meant to be greetings and well wishes of the day ("Good Morning/Afternoon"). Are comments sometimes made by strangers to strangers with intent to intimidate? Certainly. No one here is arguing that it never happens.

[Deleted]

Nov 3, 2014 21:36:56 GMT -5 Shooby said:

So it's her fault for nit responding properly to unwanted attention and harassment? Why should she have to respond at all? She was simply walking. She has no obligation to respond to them at all.

She doesn't HAVE to respond... but a polite person would.

And if there WAS harassment, I would put that squarely as the fault of the harasser... Unfortunately for your point, there wasn't any harassment in this particular video.

[ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ]

Comments are harassment and no one has the right to make them to a stranger. It's meant to intimidate and it does

So a store clerk (you'll consider that a poor example) but they ARE a stranger says "I like your coat", or "How are you doing today" is intimidating?

Better example: A construction worker welding beams, or maintenance man/street cleaner or someone using a jack-hammer tearing out a piece of sidewalk says to you in passing "Good Morning" or "Have a Nice Day", or " God Bless" - their intention is intimidation or harassment?

What about the panhandler on the corner who means no harm and is just looking for some loose change for his next six-pack? He may be down on his luck, a homeless alcoholic, or have a mental disorder, or dressed in shabby clothing, and he says "Good Morning, Miss" as you pass by. He's just sitting there hoping for a pittance of a handout and not bothering anyone, giving a friendly greeting as you pass. That's intimidating or threatening to you?

[Deleted]

ALL comments are not harassment SOME comments ARE harassment.

[Deleted]

Nov 3, 2014 22:29:16 GMT -5 @tiki said:

ALL comments are not harassment SOME comments ARE harassment.

If they are harassment, they actually aren't comments... so I would disagree with you there.

Comments, are nothing but remarks expressing opinion or reaction.

[Deleted]

1 :  commentary 2 :  a note explaining, illustrating, or criticizing the meaning of a writing 3 a :  an observation or remark expressing an opinion or attitude <critical comments> b :  a judgment expressed indirectly <sees the film as a comment on modern values>

i.word.com/idictionary/comment

[Deleted]

Nov 3, 2014 22:51:53 GMT -5 @tiki said:

1 :  commentary 2 :  a note explaining, illustrating, or criticizing the meaning of a writing 3 a :  an observation or remark expressing an opinion or attitude <critical comments> b :  a judgment expressed indirectly <sees the film as a comment on modern values>

i.word.com/idictionary/comment

Commentary: NOUN - An expression of opinions or offering of explanations explanations about an event or situation (Source - OED)

Comment: NOUN - A verbal or written remark expressing an opinion or reaction (Source - OED)

Attitude as used in your definition is not what you think it is. From your own source: Attitude - NOUN - the way you think and feel about someone or something. (Source - www.merriam-webster.com)

[Deleted]

Sorry you don't get to demand is to use only your special picks. I will leave you to play little words games alone.

[Deleted]

Nov 3, 2014 23:15:19 GMT -5 @tiki said:

Sorry you don't get to demand is to use only your special picks. I will leave you to play little words games alone.

Not "My" special picks... Attitude (which you bolded) was from YOUR source.

ETA: Also noteworthy... the people playing word games are the ones that are insisting harassment occurred in the video, when clearly it didn't. Trying to make words fit where they don't belong is the very definition of "playing word games".

[Virgil Showlion]

Nov 3, 2014 21:03:31 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

Nov 3, 2014 19:42:06 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

And FWIW, I believe there will always be an expectation in western society that if a young(-ish) woman is dressed up in make-up and tight fitting clothes, walking down the street unaccompanied, she'll be amenable to (or at least tolerant of) whistles, compliments, cat calls, etc.

You can try to change this standard and you'll fail. You can make a point of rebuking cat callers, but you'll be rowing against the floodwaters. In that light, my advice would be to dress modestly or professionally, avoid the grittier parts of town when possible, and find whatever solace you can in the fact that some yahoo finds you physically attractive.

And if you want somebody who's been following you for ten minutes to buzz off... tell him to buzz off.

Good grief. 

You can fight the battle if you want. Just don't say I didn't warn you when your efforts don't avail anything.

The fact is that it's a free society, and the Lotharios and drugstore cowboys of the world will always care about the minority of flattered women a hundredfold more than they'll care about your or my views on what's appropriate.

[Deleted]

I think some people donno whats the difference between there OPINION and a FACT

[Virgil Showlion]

Nov 3, 2014 23:30:21 GMT -5 @tiki said:

I think some people donno whats the difference between there OPINION and a FACT

I'll grant you that some of the cowboys cared about this particular documentary enough to post anonymous rape threats, which is about what I'd expect. But as for caring in a right way...

[Deleted]

Nov 3, 2014 23:30:21 GMT -5 @tiki said:

I think some people donno whats the difference between there OPINION and a FACT

This is something I greatly agree with, and see a lot of people guilty of.

[ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ]

Nov 3, 2014 23:24:30 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

Nov 3, 2014 23:15:19 GMT -5 @tiki said:

Sorry you don't get to demand is to use only your special picks. I will leave you to play little words games alone.

Not "My" special picks... Attitude (which you bolded) was from YOUR source.

ETA: Also noteworthy... the people playing word games are the ones that are insisting harassment occurred in the video, when clearly it didn't. Trying to make words fit where they don't belong is the very definition of "playing word games".

@richardintn, I'm going to give tiki a pass on this discussion - which is why I haven't commented on anything she's said. She's mentioned in other posts that she's from a different country, culture and lifestyle (Hindi, if I remember correctly). So her views and what she considers acceptable or unacceptable behavior will be far different than yours or mine on this topic.

[Virgil Showlion]

Nov 3, 2014 22:26:29 GMT -5 ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ said:

Comments are harassment and no one has the right to make them to a stranger. It's meant to intimidate and it does

So a store clerk (you'll consider that a poor example) but they ARE a stranger says "I like your coat", or "How are you doing today" is intimidating?

Better example: A construction worker welding beams, or maintenance man/street cleaner or someone using a jack-hammer tearing out a piece of sidewalk says to you in passing "Good Morning" or "Have a Nice Day", or " God Bless" - their intention is intimidation or harassment?

What about the panhandler on the corner who means no harm and is just looking for some loose change for his next six-pack? He may be down on his luck, a homeless alcoholic, or have a mental disorder, or dressed in shabby clothing, and he says "Good Morning, Miss" as you pass by. He's just sitting there hoping for a pittance of a handout and not bothering anyone, giving a friendly greeting as you pass. That's intimidating or threatening to you?

A lady on the subway platform the other day asked me about what I had "in the box"? (I was carrying a large box with me.)

I thought about flagging the transit cops, but she was between me and them, and I thought "if I just stand still and start whistling, it will all be over; it will all be over soon". By the time I was able to file a report, she was long gone.

I'll be damned if I'm going to ride the Toronto subway again, I can tell you that much.

[Deleted]

Nov 3, 2014 23:40:06 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

Nov 3, 2014 23:30:21 GMT -5 @tiki said:

I think some people donno whats the difference between there OPINION and a FACT

This is something I greatly agree with, and see a lot of people guilty of.

But probably not your self yes?

[Shooby]

So there has to be an indictment on Her politeness? Wow.

[ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ]

Nov 3, 2014 23:46:43 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

quote]A lady on the subway platform the other day asked me about what I had "in the box"? (I was carrying a large box with me.)

I thought about flagging the transit cops, but she was between me and them, and I thought "if I just stand still and start whistling, it will all be over; it will all be over soon". By the time I was able to file a report, she was long gone.

I'll be damned if I'm going to ride the Toronto subway again, I can tell you that much.

Maybe she thought you were carrying a di serpente coccolone in the box.

[Deleted]

Nov 3, 2014 23:46:41 GMT -5 @tiki said:

Nov 3, 2014 23:40:06 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

This is something I greatly agree with, and see a lot of people guilty of.

But probably not your self yes?

Since I have yet to do it, that would be correct.