Woman Harrassed Simply By Walking in New York

[billisonboard]

Nov 3, 2014 16:48:50 GMT -5 siralynn said:

The arguments against the video in this thread serve to illustrate exactly why videos and discussions like this are needed. Guys deny it exists. A video gets made to illustrate it. Guys still deny it exists. Baffling.
...

(Emphasis added)

What is "it" in your mind?  I have read much discussion on what it is that is shown on the video but have not read anything that claims there is no it.

[Malarky]

No one is saying it doesn't exist.  

I'm saying that you can choose how to react to it.

And I'm objecting to the male bashing because it isn't as common as this video suggests.

Some guys are assholes.  But the majority of the interactions in the video and in my RL experience are harmless if not downright friendly.   

[ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ]

The arguments against the video in this thread serve to illustrate exactly why videos and discussions like this are needed. Guys deny it exists. A video gets made to illustrate it. Guys still deny it exists. Baffling.

I think it's safe to say that most of us posting here agree that the problem exists to some extent.

But the video in question is not a good example of how it really is in R/L. I've said repeatedly, that this particular street was purposely chosen, probably because in this very small concentrated area where the problem is very perverse. But it sure isn't a realistic or accurate portrayal of attitudes, approach or treatment between men/women/strangers everywhere.

And that's why I won't base my opinion of society (or men) and their behavior in general on this little snippet of edited tape.

Yes, there are certain people or surroundings/situations I'll purposely avoid in real life - there are also some of the male (or female) NMSNM members here that I'll avoid talking to - because of some things they've posted or said that I find inappropriate - or the demeanor they display in what they say and how they say it - or if they show "attitude" toward me or someone else here - being rude or ignorant.

You can't change all of society - you can only control your own life and how you want to deal with different situations - or people - or treat them & be treated.

If you slink away from a situation that you find uncomfortable without letting the person know their actions or words are not acceptable and to back off, you'll always be slinking away - and they'll learn nothing.

[zibazinski]

I think it's a great example. Guys say shit because she is alone. A grocery store surrounded by others is in no way a good example and unless the guy was at least 80, " my dear" was damn creepy. Reminds me of the rudeness of clerks forced to use your first name like you're best buds. But I can see that some others think these guys are just "being friendly" and aren't treating her like a whore put on this earth for their entertainment. I just don't see it like that.

[ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ]

Zib, the guys in the video were creeps (and I've said that before). They had no business cat-calling, saying "god bless Miami" and other remarks about her appearance, telling her to smile, etc - OR dogging after her closely for several minutes. That was also creepy..

Do you think that if there wasn't a video or documentary being made that the same woman would have been walking alone up that same street?

That's why it's not realistic.

[Angel!]

Nov 3, 2014 17:40:21 GMT -5 ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ said:

Zib, the guys in the video were creeps (and I've said that before). They had no business cat-calling, saying "god bless Miami" and other remarks about her appearance, telling her to smile, etc - OR dogging after her closely for several minutes. That was also creepy..

Do you think that if there wasn't a video or documentary being made that the same woman would have been walking alone up that same street?

That's why it's not realistic.

You keep calling out the street. She walked for 10 hours, so I am thinking she wasn't just cruising up & down a single street. She probably went to various areas. If she had only walked in the really bad parts, she probably would have had more than 2 minutes worth of video for that much walking.

[zibazinski]

Women work in areas that aren't all Park Avenue. I'm not sure where the guy who filmed it's girlfriend works but he taped it because she said she gets harassed every day going to work. I don't care if she's a stripper or a streetwalker, no one should be verbally or anyway harassed in any way while they're minding their own business. I'm aware of guys who try to pick you up in public places but when you're surrounded by other people, you don't feel as intimidated or vulnerable. Sorry, I'm not 6 ft tall and built like a dock worker so I do feel scared when pigs say shit to me. They do it because they know how it feels to a woman. They get off on that feeling. It has zero to do with trying to get to know the woman they are harassing. 

[Green Eyed Lady]

Dear Lord;

Thank you for putting me in a place where, for the most part, gentlemen act like gentlemen.
Thank you for not making me so smoking hot that I can't walk out my door without being harassed like so many others apparently are.
Thank you for making me smart enough to know the difference between rudeness and harassment so that if I am ever harassed, my complaint will be taken seriously intead of being looked at as the "boy who cried wolf".
Thank you for posters like Malarky who write the things I think way better than I could do myself.
Thank you for giving me the strength to not let someone else have the power to affect me with words.
Thank you for my permit to carry so that if the words turn into actions, the dude is hurtin' for certain.

Amen.

[Deleted]

Nov 3, 2014 17:13:46 GMT -5 Angel! said:

They are the ones we should be looking at, not the guys that said 'good morning' in a polite manner.

Nov 3, 2014 16:48:50 GMT -5 siralynn said:

I like the rule that someone else listed somewhere upthread - if you wouldn't say it to a man you respected, shut up.

Probably nobody will get upset from normal hello.

[Tennesseer]

Nov 3, 2014 17:40:21 GMT -5 ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ said:

Zib, the guys in the video were creeps (and I've said that before). They had no business cat-calling, saying "god bless Miami" and other remarks about her appearance, telling her to smile, etc - OR dogging after her closely for several minutes. That was also creepy..

Do you think that if there wasn't a video or documentary being made that the same woman would have been walking alone up that same street?

That's why it's not realistic.

Are you saying women should not be walking up the streets shown in the video? Do you think no women walk those streets shown in the video? Outside of a few high-end streets in the Manhattan/NYC area, the streets looked pretty typical to me.

[Deleted]

Nov 3, 2014 17:18:05 GMT -5 Malarky said:

No one is saying it doesn't exist.  

I'm saying that you can choose how to react to it.

And I'm objecting to the male bashing because it isn't as common as this video suggests.

Some guys are assholes.  But the majority of the interactions in the video and in my RL experience are harmless if not downright friendly.   

Who said its about all men? I didn't see somebody say it.

[Tennesseer]

Let me add to the above-do you think only homely, 'invisible' women walk the streets shown in the video?

[zibazinski]

Yes, because these guys always randomly say hello to anyone, male or female, they don't know. If guys were getting harassed like this every time they went out in public, it would stop. Because it's women and we deserve it just for being women, it won't stop. Because they're "just being friendly." WTF, does anyone truly believe this? Just being friendly, my ass. If you wouldn't say it to a guy then don't say it to a gal.

[Angel!]

Nov 3, 2014 17:52:37 GMT -5 @tiki said:

Nov 3, 2014 17:13:46 GMT -5 Angel! said:

They are the ones we should be looking at, not the guys that said 'good morning' in a polite manner.

Nov 3, 2014 16:48:50 GMT -5 siralynn said:

I like the rule that someone else listed somewhere upthread - if you wouldn't say it to a man you respected, shut up.

Probably nobody will get upset from normal hello.

Just my opinion, but half the video was normal hellos. If you are over-sensitive, then maybe you see them as harassment (OMG, someone spoke to me when I was walking alone, how dare they!!), but I think the problem there lays with the person interpreting the greeting, not the greeter.

[Angel!]

Nov 3, 2014 17:56:50 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

Yes, because these guys always randomly say hello to anyone, male or female, they don't know. If guys were getting harassed like this every time they went out in public, it would stop. Because it's women and we deserve it just for being women, it won't stop. Because they're "just being friendly." WTF, does anyone truly believe this? Just being friendly, my ass. If you wouldn't say it to a guy then don't say it to a gal.

How is saying hello harassment?

I'm not saying there weren't guys in the video that were complete jackasses.  But, half the video was just friendly greetings.

And yes, my ex would say 'good morning' or 'how you doing' to males & females, young & old.  Some people just approach the world that way & are friendly to everyone.

[siralynn]

Simply saying hello isn't harassment, but if they're saying hello and/or making other comments only to women, then they're contributing to the larger cultural issue.

The "it" the video is demonstrating is the level of bullshit that women, and women-only, have to put up with when they simply leave the house. Most of it isn't serious. Most of it isn't a big deal taken as individual instances. But it's pervasive, and it's time to have conversations about it.

If the video makes even one guy realize and question why he says "hello" and tries to engage only women and not men on the street, then great, it's had at least some impact. As for those who say "you can't change society" - well, sorry, I don't agree with that. It may take forever, but if you only ever except the status quo instead of trying to push for positive change, women wouldn't have the right to vote, and same-sex marriage wouldn't be close to becoming legal across the whole country.

[ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ]

I don't agree with that. It may take forever, but if you only ever except the status quo instead of trying to push for positive change, women wouldn't have the right to vote, and same-sex marriage wouldn't be close to becoming legal across the whole country.

What I witnessed in the video - and Virgil also mentioned, is that the woman continued to walk, ignoring the two in particular who were trailing after her.

She said nothing to let them know their close presence was not wanted or appreciated. She didn't stare either down or give them "the look" or tell either to back off and leave her alone. Is that not also part of the problem? If women (or men) continue to not speak up if someone's saying/doing something in public that makes them uncomfortable, or they see someone else in a situation, how do you expect people to learn that boundaries are boundaries, and some actions (cat-calling, wolf-whistles, or "Hey, Babes") are not acceptable?

More people have to start leading by example - that includes telling someone off if they're being inappropriate asses - yes, even strangers.


.

[Virgil Showlion]

Nov 3, 2014 16:19:39 GMT -5 Opti said:

Nov 3, 2014 15:39:40 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Yes, but that presumes these "suitors" believe she's afraid.

Unlike Optimist, I don't think they're dominators or sadists. Lust explains their actions perfectly well as far as I'm concerned.

Damn, Virgil!

You take exaggeration to a whole nother level.

We are discussing street harassment and SL is bringing in something totally different,

encounters in a grocery store.

I don't think they are sadists, I didn't even say they were dominators.

Why are you trying to put words in my mouth? WTE?

<This is a giant WTF, sarcastic comment>

Yes, of course walking on the streets of Manhattan straight ahead giving no

eye contact is totally the same as grocery shopping. being in a grocery store. 

Yes of course  your interactions should be entirely the same.

< WTF, WTE sarcastic comment end>

ETmodify: In grocery store, not actually grocery shopping correction

The anecdote about the grocery store was SL's.

And my apologies if I'm putting words in your mouth, but when I suggested the men's hooting and mating dances were a form of ghetto courtship, you responded that no woman would respond favourably to such antics. That leaves only mean-spirited competition to claim the woman's attention, i.e. dominism, or trolling the woman, which is a mild form of sadism, as explanations for their behaviour, unless you're claiming they're insane.

Since you now seem to be balking at these explanations as well, perhaps you can clarify for us what exactly you believe is motivating these men.

[billisonboard]

Nov 3, 2014 18:30:23 GMT -5 siralynn said:

Simply saying hello isn't harassment, but if they're saying hello and/or making other comments only to women, then they're contributing to the larger cultural issue.

The "it" the video is demonstrating is the level of bullshit that women, and women-only, have to put up with when they simply leave the house. Most of it isn't serious. Most of it isn't a big deal taken as individual instances. But it's pervasive, and it's time to have conversations about it.

If the video makes even one guy realize and question why he says "hello" and tries to engage only women and not men on the street, then great, it's had at least some impact. ...

(Again) The problem with the video is that it oversells the problem and thus is counterproductive to a positive conversation.

[Deleted]

Nov 3, 2014 9:04:19 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

Nov 2, 2014 20:23:22 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

Funny (but not really) how people are having trouble grasping that no one thinks harassment is o.k.... just some of us know that this (in the video) ISN'T harassment.

Its not HARASSMENT to YOU. It is to many women, not ALL women, obviously. But to most, it is. It's a shame that in this day and age, a woman is still judged for not walking where she should be walking to avoid being harassed and people actually think its okay to say these things. It's also funny that if she retaliated for the rude comments or if all women started to, they would stop, for the most part. Pigs pretending to be men, say this shit cause they can do it with no retaliation. Retaliation would stop it. It offends me that someone would say that women have to learn not to be victims. Would you also say this for someone being bullied or someone gay? Just "get over it? Or fight back? Serious crap being said here and it's pretty awful to think people actually think this way.

It's not about what it is to me or you or women or men. It's about the definition of the word. What happened in the video is not harassment, by definition. ONE guy was kind of creepy... but it wasn't harassment.

[Deleted]

Nov 3, 2014 9:29:31 GMT -5 Bonny said:

Nov 3, 2014 0:43:58 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

Here's what started this chain (see the quote that follows)... notice in MY portion the word "compliment" doesn't exist, yet in YOUR portion (your rebuttal) you suggest I should take it as a "compliment" (I'll bold it for you, so you can see it easier) if the same comment were to be directed at my wife or daughter.

Do you seriously NOT see how that's your flawed interpretation rising up?

Apparently you missed the sarcasm in my statement.

Wow.

Yup... I missed it... since there wasn't any.

[Virgil Showlion]

Nov 3, 2014 18:57:09 GMT -5 ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ said:

I don't agree with that. It may take forever, but if you only ever except the status quo instead of trying to push for positive change, women wouldn't have the right to vote, and same-sex marriage wouldn't be close to becoming legal across the whole country.

What I witnessed in the video - and Virgil also mentioned, is that the woman continued to walk, ignoring the two in particular who were trailing after her.

She said nothing to let them know their close presence was not wanted or appreciated. She didn't stare either down or give them "the look" or tell either to back off and leave her alone. Is that not also part of the problem? If women (or men) continue to not speak up if someone's saying/doing something in public that makes them uncomfortable, or they see someone else in a situation, how do you expect people to learn that boundaries are boundaries, and some actions (cat-calling, wolf-whistles, or "Hey, Babes") are not acceptable?

More people have to start leading by example - that includes telling someone off if they're being inappropriate asses - yes, even strangers.


.

Her behaviour was unusual. Unnatural. That's my problem with it.

If you an actress into a situation with the instructions "Just keep on walking, no matter what." when nobody would ordinarily act this way, it's like getting her to dance a jig every twenty feet and then hoping to deduce why so many people are following her through the streets. You've contrived the situation. What you're observing is people's reactions to highly unorthodox behaviour.

That's the start and the end of my argument vis a vis the men following her.

[Opti]

Siralynn is saying it better than I have. I will also say it is context.

The more crowded an area, the more people you pass, the more wearing

it can be for requests for attention even if people believe they are being

nice or just fishing for a date.

I get hellos walking trails in the woods and other places. But its not NYC.

For myself personally, I am not concerned about street harassment anywhere

but NYC. Re-watching parts of the video clip I identified three businesses-

Jimmy Jazz(clothing retailer not in Manhattan but 4 stores in Brooklyn),

Starbucks and Soho Café(probably Soho downtown). So not one street, one area.

For those not familiar with NYC street level, she passes an area under construction

(green plywood) and several rounds of the sliding metal storefront doors.

Both of these are found in the nicest areas depending on construction and time of

day. I walked past lots of both myself. Its been awhile but most alleys either fit

just people walking side by side, or one vehicle. They don't have sidewalks.

At least one of the times at night appears to be around Times Square or Broadway.

I'm not sure where the bad areas are, but from a couple re-watches, it looks like

where I have walked, been on a bus or even driven by.

[Deleted]

Nov 3, 2014 18:57:09 GMT -5 ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ said:

I don't agree with that. It may take forever, but if you only ever except the status quo instead of trying to push for positive change, women wouldn't have the right to vote, and same-sex marriage wouldn't be close to becoming legal across the whole country.

What I witnessed in the video - and Virgil also mentioned, is that the woman continued to walk, ignoring the two in particular who were trailing after her.

She said nothing to let them know their close presence was not wanted or appreciated. She didn't stare either down or give them "the look" or tell either to back off and leave her alone. Is that not also part of the problem? If women (or men) continue to not speak up if someone's saying/doing something in public that makes them uncomfortable, or they see someone else in a situation, how do you expect people to learn that boundaries are boundaries, and some actions (cat-calling, wolf-whistles, or "Hey, Babes") are not acceptable?

More people have to start leading by example - that includes telling someone off if they're being inappropriate asses - yes, even strangers.


.

I do not agree with it. Such behavior is to make her feel scared and try to control her. Probably there gonna not stop because she gave a stare to them and possibly they will hurt you. I attended to school at Hyderabad 3 years and it is what school officials told us to do... look forward and keep walking and do not even notice them.

[zibazinski]

It is not unusual to not engage in any manner creepy people harassing you. Making eye contact or speaking to them just encourages more harassment from them.

[Virgil Showlion]

And FWIW, I believe there will always be an expectation in western society that if a young(-ish) woman is dressed up in make-up and tight fitting clothes, walking down the street unaccompanied, she'll be amenable to (or at least tolerant of) whistles, compliments, cat calls, etc.

You can try to change this standard and you'll fail. You can make a point of rebuking cat callers, but you'll be rowing against the floodwaters. In that light, my advice would be to dress modestly or professionally, avoid the grittier parts of town when possible, and find whatever solace you can in the fact that some yahoo finds you physically attractive.

And if you want somebody who's been following you for ten minutes to buzz off... tell him to buzz off.

[Opti]

Nov 3, 2014 19:11:44 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Nov 3, 2014 18:30:23 GMT -5 siralynn said:

Simply saying hello isn't harassment, but if they're saying hello and/or making other comments only to women, then they're contributing to the larger cultural issue.The "it" the video is demonstrating is the level of bullshit that women, and women-only, have to put up with when they simply leave the house. Most of it isn't serious. Most of it isn't a big deal taken as individual instances. But it's pervasive, and it's time to have conversations about it.If the video makes even one guy realize and question why he says "hello" and tries to engage only women and not men on the street, then great, it's had at least some impact. ...

(Again) The problem with the video is that it oversells the problem and thus is counterproductive to a positive conversation.

It does appear to. And the problem is if you live and walk in certain cities like NYC

or Atlanta what the video portrays might be all harassment to you at different levels.

She did her best job of hanging out the no soliciting sign. And got solicited anyway.

If you put out a sign on your door you'd probably be pissed if 10 people came by in

one hour no matter how nice they were or how little time they took. Maybe some people

would be annoyed by 10 doorbell rings if they did answer the door. Some people 10 is

just too much.

This movement has more than 6 organizations I found and they aren't all based in

NYC or Atlanta. At least two were for black teens and women.

[billisonboard]

Nov 3, 2014 19:49:24 GMT -5 Opti said:

... She did her best job of hanging out the no soliciting sign. And got solicited anyway. ...

Well I did visit her web site on which she had a couple clips of her acting, and I wasn't all that impressed.

[Deleted]

Nov 3, 2014 16:48:50 GMT -5 siralynn said:

The arguments against the video in this thread serve to illustrate exactly why videos and discussions like this are needed. Guys deny it exists. A video gets made to illustrate it. Guys still deny it exists. Baffling.

Individual instances of cat-calling don't have any power over me. I've gotten so good at ignoring people in public that I usually don't even notice when people are trying to get my attention for a legitimate reason. (There was one time a couple of years ago that I was walking through San Francisco with my husband. Got to the next cross-walk and realized he wasn't with me. He was jogging to catch up from about a half a block back and was genuinely baffled that I hadn't noticed that some other people had tried to stop us to ask for directions.)

But nothing is going to change if ingrained cultural behavior isn't challenged. Cat-calling certainly isn't the most serious problem facing women in this culture, but it's definitely one of the visible examples of the pervasive sexism that's still affecting everything.

I like the rule that someone else listed somewhere upthread - if you wouldn't say it to a man you respected, shut up.

I don't deny the video exists. I don't deny harassing exists.

The problem with THIS VIDEO is that it doesn't show harassment.

[Deleted]

Nov 3, 2014 17:56:50 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

Yes, because these guys always randomly say hello to anyone, male or female, they don't know. If guys were getting harassed like this every time they went out in public, it would stop. Because it's women and we deserve it just for being women, it won't stop. Because they're "just being friendly." WTF, does anyone truly believe this? Just being friendly, my ass. If you wouldn't say it to a guy then don't say it to a gal.

I agree with this.

But then again, I'd say "Good Morning/Afternoon" to anyone... or tell them "nice boots" (if they were)... or ask "is everything o.k.?" if they looked unhappy. As I said (more or less) before, I'm an equal opportunity well-wisher.