Woman Harrassed Simply By Walking in New York

[Virgil Showlion]

Nov 3, 2014 8:32:07 GMT -5 Opti said:

One thing we can be assured of is that the men had an expectation of success. That is, they reasonably believed that the solicitation/flattery had a better-than-marginal chance of proving fruitful. Whether this is a function of where she was walking, how she was walking, what she was wearing, or some other circumstance, I don't know. What we can deduce is that women walking the streets of New York under similar circumstances must respond to such solicitation favourably often enough not to frustrate its use. This could mean that women respond favourably 2% of the time (1 in 50) or 50% of the time (1 in 2). Regardless, if this documentarian wants a faint hope of ending cat calls in New York, she'll have to address her message to the x% of women who respond favourably to cat calls.

Virgil, as posted earlier a page or two back, the documentarian is male and was the

film-maker along with the actress who volunteered to work on logistics of filming it.

I started another thread because I think men do this in spite of the fact they do not

get success. My guess is success rates are way below 1%. He volunteered to do it

because of the street harassment his GF deals with as a NYCer.

Men at construction sites probably have done it as a power play as a game with
their co-workers simply if they can make the woman look at them. That's it.

...

Nnnh. Seems like a pretty thin argument to me.

If the men have no hope of success, that leaves "posturing for friends" (as you've suggested) and "trying to annoy a random woman" as explanations for the behaviour. You might get a handful of guys cat calling at a woman simply to annoy her, but assuming it's a common motivation just isn't logical. For one thing, there are far easier ways to troll a woman than hooting about her attractiveness.

As for "posturing for friends", it doesn't explain the behaviour when the cat caller isn't accompanied by anybody, which is the case for the majority of the clips in the video.

I don't know on what basis you assert your "way below 1%" figure. You'd have to survey literally hundreds of NYC women to justify such a claim. Not only that, but for all we know the actress is walking round and round New York's swinger district where pick-up attempts succeed just as often as they fail. There's a reason this is being shot in New York rather than Sheepy Grove, Oregon, pop. 750.

[Opti]

Nov 3, 2014 11:25:04 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Nov 3, 2014 11:17:11 GMT -5 Bonny said:

... Even the guy who said "Smile" comes across as ordering her around. He wouldn't say that to a guy.

What is it in the male socialization process that makes males think it is their responsibility to make females happy? You'd think that there was a constant bombardment of that message they way act.

Bills, I've probably missed part of the male social model because I'm female and only

read some of the books like Why Men are the are by Warren Farrell. Are men really

socialized to make random women happy, because generally I think more random women try

to do that for me than men?

I know there is a component like that very strong in male/female relationships.

It is a double edged sword though as detailed in the Mars/Venus books. You have

to know the guy wants credit and appreciation for say serving up a good experience

and be careful to not criticize any of it as sometimes as he will take it personally.

 when it is intended as a remark on a piece that one wishes was better.

But yes generally, please smile comes across as an order to me, i.e. make me happy

cuz I hate looking at you when you aren't smiling versus I want you to be happy.

Women and some men ask why you aren't smiling or are unhappy. I find that easier

and friendlier as an approach. YMMV. Other people's experiences obviously do as well.

[Virgil Showlion]

Nov 3, 2014 9:46:15 GMT -5 Opti said:

Nov 3, 2014 9:41:01 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

I am not sure whose quote this is but who ever it wrote it has never worked or lived in NYC. Nothing at all unorthodox about walking straight ahead and feigning disinterest. Failure to do so will result in every Tom, Dick, Harry or Mary bothering you for one thing or another. Been there and done that.

Personal space in NYC is a precious commodity.

Our friend Virgil in Toronto. Perhaps he needs a field trip to parts of Manhattan, Queens

and the Bronx.

I meant for a protracted time. The actress in the video appears to say absolutely nothing to the men who follow her along for minutes at a time. Maybe it's different in New York, but in Toronto, if somebody follows you for a block or more and you don't want them following you, you say something. Even if it's just "Buzz off.", "I'm not giving you anything.", or "I'm going to mace you if you don't get lost."

[Opti]

Nov 3, 2014 11:54:53 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Nov 3, 2014 8:32:07 GMT -5 Opti said:

Virgil, as posted earlier a page or two back, the documentarian is male and was the

film-maker along with the actress who volunteered to work on logistics of filming it.

I started another thread because I think men do this in spite of the fact they do not

get success. My guess is success rates are way below 1%. He volunteered to do it

because of the street harassment his GF deals with as a NYCer.

Men at construction sites probably have done it as a power play as a game with
their co-workers simply if they can make the woman look at them. That's it.

...

Nnnh. Seems like a pretty thin argument to me.

If the men have no hope of success, that leaves "posturing for friends" (as you've suggested) and "trying to annoy a random woman" as explanations for the behaviour. You might get a handful of guys cat calling at a woman simply to annoy her, but assuming it's a common motivation just isn't logical. For one thing, there are far easier ways to troll a woman than hooting about her attractiveness.

As for "posturing for friends", it doesn't explain the behaviour when the cat caller isn't accompanied by anybody, which is the case for the majority of the clips in the video.

I don't know on what basis you assert your "way below 1%" figure. You'd have to survey literally hundreds of NYC women to justify such a claim. Not only that, but for all we know the actress is walking round and round New York's swinger district where pick-up attempts succeed just as often as they fail. There's a reason this is being shot in New York rather than Sheepy Grove, Oregon, pop. 750.

Well Virgil I think Bills is closer than both of us to understanding the whys even though

you are male.

I assert my basis on RL experience, talking to other women, and the huge lack of stories

on the thread I created and in response to the video as supporting my point. Sorry, Virgil

what you are thinking, swinger district, really?

[Opti]

Nov 3, 2014 12:00:01 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Nov 3, 2014 9:46:15 GMT -5 Opti said:

Our friend Virgil in Toronto. Perhaps he needs a field trip to parts of Manhattan, Queens

and the Bronx.

I meant for a protracted time. The actress in the video appears to say absolutely nothing to the men who follow her along for minutes at a time. Maybe it's different in New York, but in Toronto, if somebody follows you for a block or more and you don't want them following you, you say something. Even if it's just "Buzz off.", "I'm not giving you anything.", or "I'm going to mace you if you don't get lost."

Again, it was an artistic and creative decision to do so.

How hard is it to remember that? Anyone can choose any response. Just because

you apparently always say something, I do not. I've glared, I've gone into shops,

but I'm not sure I have ever said anything. In Manhattan and other places similar to it.

Also realize because this filming was done on the cheap, turning and interacting would

make the microphones more obvious than they were. The interactions would likely

be less real.

Perhaps those who want another video to be filmed along with street and time information

in a word doc can start sending in their donations to the organization or film-maker now.

[ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ]

if somebody follows you for a block or more and you don't want them following you, you say something. Even if it's just "Buzz off.", "I'm not giving you anything.", or "I'm going to mace you if you don't get lost."

That's pretty close to what I said in the last paragraph of my post #452. I'm beginning to feel like the odd woman out here.

Most of the ladies are giving the impression that they think the male population (for the most part) are asses and jerks and it's up to THEM to change and be our protectors.

Then those same women complain about not being treated as an equal because of their gender.

Maybe some don't/didn't have male role-models, or perhaps they don't work with many men, but the men in my life (past & present) - either family, friends, co-workers, behave like real men.

I encounter very few men in my day-to-day life who behave improperly or say things to women (or anyone for that matter) that they shouldn't.

This video is a very bad example of how the majority of men behave or interact with people - of either sex. It was purposely filmed on this particular street. Most of society don't behave like the men in this experiment - and in such large numbers. This is an isolated instance - one street where it seems a large number of males just hang around on the street all day. They've learned their behavior from their surroundings - those other men are probably the only people they ever interact with. And since it appears that most of them are acting like jerks, then that's what the younger ones are learning from them. Probably most of them have never even ventured much farther out of that particular neighborhood.

[billisonboard]

Nov 3, 2014 10:57:49 GMT -5 Bonny said:

...
In an earlier post Bill you stated that men shouldn't have to fight women's battles. What good men CAN do is to tell their adolescent friends to "Knock it off" or "That's not cool" vs laughing or remaining silent which can give the impression to both the aggressor and the victim that you approve.

Yes i agree and thank you. I had seen it only as "third party intervention" which I do think is problematical. Friends shouldn't let friends be jerks.

[Malarky]

You aren't alone in your views, SL.

I'm actually surprised that so many of the women in this forum allow catcalling to affect them so profoundly.  While I find it annoying and unnecessary, it is only harmful if you allow it to be.  

I have a teenaged daughter.  And I've taught her not to let this sort of thing bother her.  It doesn't do anything to her or take anything away from her if some random guy whistles at her.  Unless she chooses to let it bother her.  She can not be responsible for others actions, only her response.

The creepy guy following beside the actress in the video, should have been asked to step away.  She chose to let that continue.

While I don't have an issue with highlighting that this happens and it bothers people and they would like it to stop, I do have a problem with the exaggeration of harassment and abuse. Also with vilifying the male popuation when most of them are not engaging in the behavior.   Anecdotal evidence only, but I'd say it happens far less frequently than 20 years ago.  So while we aren't there yet in completely eliminating the offensive behavior, we are well on our way.  

 

[Opti]

Most of the ladies are giving the impression that they think the male population (for the most part) are asses and jerks and it's up to THEM to change and be our protectors.

You be seeing something that isn't there SL.

My impression is you are a staunch defender of men behaving well and

the status quo in regards to this issue.

I think I'm supposed to smile, nod and walk away quickly now.

[Malarky]

Nov 3, 2014 13:40:13 GMT -5 Opti said:

Most of the ladies are giving the impression that they think the male population (for the most part) are asses and jerks and it's up to THEM to change and be our protectors.

You be seeing something that isn't there SL.

My impression is you are a staunch defender of men behaving well and

the status quo in regards to this issue.

I think I'm supposed to smile, nod and walk away quickly now.

SL is not the only one who thinks that you are holding all males responsible for the transgressions of the few.  

As for the bolded part-you can react however you choose.  But you are only a victim if you choose to be.  Some of us just refuse to let it have an impact.  

[Opti]

Depending on what it is, it bothers me. If its too frequent it bothers me more.

I don't think whistling was even mentioned in this thread really. Not everyone

can make it not bother them any more than apparently the men who do it can

do a personality change and suddenly feel happy enough with themselves to not catcall.

Its ludicrious to want all people sensitive or not, shitty lives or not, walking

through more catcalls than you do - be you. Act as you.

I have a lizard right now it turns out by nature is going to be fearful all his

life, apparently forever even leaving the cage for minutes. His nature and a third of his life has

more influence on his actions than my attempts to slowly influence his feeling of

safety.

We weren't all born to be SL or malarkey or even me. Why do you want to

now put blame on both sides? Men behaving badly and the much larger segment

of women who even for a moment forget they aren't supposed to have any

negative feeling(let it bother them) because some women have decreed it must be so.

[billisonboard]

Nov 3, 2014 11:56:21 GMT -5 Opti said:

... Are men really socialized to make random women happy, because generally I think more random women try to do that for me than men? ...

Men are socialized to make women happy and some men generalize it to random women while others have what I, at least, consider more appropriate boundaries. But there is an interesting gray area. Why is there the concept of males holding doors open for women? If it isn't because the thing is just too heavy or complicated for women to deal with, isn't it to please them and bring a smile to their face?

[Opti]

Nov 3, 2014 13:45:07 GMT -5 Malarky said:

Nov 3, 2014 13:40:13 GMT -5 Opti said:

You be seeing something that isn't there SL.

My impression is you are a staunch defender of men behaving well and

the status quo in regards to this issue.

I think I'm supposed to smile, nod and walk away quickly now.

SL is not the only one who thinks that you are holding all males responsible for the transgressions of the few.  

As for the bolded part-you can react however you choose.  But you are only a victim if you choose to be.  Some of us just refuse to let it have an impact.  

Well, then both of you aren't understanding what I write or more likely

assuming things because of what your own beliefs are.

What we feel, how we react are two sometimes very different things.

You are a recipient of the behavior no matter generally how you act although

its easier to invite it. It is hurting others more than you. That doesn't always make them

victims.

But you lessoned me. Perhaps tomorrow I will decide there are no victims of domestic

violence. After all, they can just train themselves to see unicorns and rainbows when it happens.

And if they can't or don't want to I guess I can tell them they are weak assed victims which

is what SL and now you seem to be saying.

[ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ]

As long as you continue being leery of all (or most) men's true intentions, or lump them all as a whole, instead of as individuals like you and I are, you're going to have this attitude about them.

Of the 17 pages (so far), you're giving off the impression that you don't trust men - ANY men - or their intentions. And you think they ALL need to change - and they're the ones keeping us down or victimizing us.

They showed maybe a dozen men (or less) in the video - and they are a far cry from a fair example of how men really behave and interact with people - more specifically, how they behave and act toward women.

Do you think if they'd filmed on a different street, they would have had a different result? I do. If they'd filmed in a mall - or on a street during crowded lunch hour where most of the pedestrians are men in business suits, would the result be the same? Absolutely not !

That's why (to me), the video proves nothing. And I'll continue to defend and side with most of the men posting here. They've been taking quite a licking for their opinions - because "how can they possibly know what a woman goes though"?

They know because they have mothers, wives, daughters, female co-workers, etc. They also strike me as men who would not behave like the handful of men in the video.


ETA: And about the domestic violence you mentioned - I believe I PM'd you last week about how all-too-familiar I am with it. That doesn't change my opinion.

[Opti]

Nov 3, 2014 13:57:33 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Nov 3, 2014 11:56:21 GMT -5 Opti said:

... Are men really socialized to make random women happy, because generally I think more random women try to do that for me than men? ...

Men are socialized to make women happy and some men generalize it to random women while others have what I, at least, consider more appropriate boundaries. But there is an interesting gray area. Why is there the concept of males holding doors open for women? If it isn't because the thing is just too heavy or complicated for women to deal with, isn't it to please them and bring a smile to their face?

I don't know the roots of it, Bills. No idea.

I always saw it as a manners thing that obligated the man to do it and the woman to

wait for him and be grateful. It seemed artificial.

But good answer. I wasn't brought up male nor did I have brothers so I have no idea

what men my age were taught. I am thankful and grateful now when it happens somewhat

organically. Because of my upbringing, that was not always true.

[Opti]

I don't have the problems with men you think I do.

I can stack all my male friendships, co-workers against yours and compare

favorably.

Just like you are being the champion of all(most) men and chose that role,

I had chosen to be the champion of this is a problem, in parts because of

an issue I am personally sick of dealing with as you also know from our PMs.

You are generally wrong about me and what I mean

and I am generally wrong about you and what you mean.

[ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ]

But there is an interesting gray area. Why is there the concept of males holding doors open for women? If it isn't because the thing is just too heavy or complicated for women to deal with, isn't it to please them and bring a smile to their face?

It's called good etiquette. Even as a female, I'll hold a door open for a woman (or man) who has their arms full of packages, or carrying a child or wrestling with a large box. Or a senior citizen. If I and another person approach a door at the same time, I'm bound to hold the door and allow the other person to enter or exit first, if they haven't already put their hand on the handle.

Some customs are old and come natural to most - like holding the door. I also appreciate having my chair pulled out for me when out dining or having the man help me with my coat, or opening the car door for me.

That type of man has been taught manners and etiquette and it's the attitude of most men in my life.

Do you think any of the men in the video have been taught those lessons? I don't - just by their boorish behavior toward a stranger.

[Opti]

Nov 2, 2014 19:25:14 GMT -5 Bonny said:

Nov 2, 2014 19:07:06 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

Tenn's point of view seems to be more reasonable that the others that say she was "asking for it." Don't lump him with the others. 

That wasn't said, Zib.

It's more along the lines that it's no big deal or that it's not harassment.

Dark gets it. WWGW got it too.

Some are trying to dialogue. I didn't get Bills intentions in posting at first, what he was trying to say.

But I think he has some great insights that no one else has brought forward.

[Deleted]

This thread is confusing to me, and I'm a woman. I kind of see why good men with no harmful intentions whatsoever can get confused about what women consider harmful behavior. @billsonboard has mentioned in other threads the confusing messages society sends men, and I guess this thread is helping me start to understand a bit about what he means.

[Peace Of Mind]

Nov 3, 2014 14:44:02 GMT -5 @pinkcshmere said:

This thread is confusing to me, and I'm a woman. I kind of see why good men with no harmful intentions whatsoever can get confused about what women consider harmful behavior. @billsonboard has mentioned in other threads the confusing messages society sends men, and I guess this thread is helping me start to understand a bit about what he means.

Yes, most/all? of our guys here are normal and don't have nefarious intentions so they are speaking from their point of view. 

As we usually do we express our experiences or knowledge from our point of views.  When men call out to me, even if cat calling, I always saw it as an attempt to get attention towards them in some way or from me personally.  I never felt I was going to be attacked or raped or whatever when in a business or public setting.  I would smile, grin or say thank you and keep moving.  Maybe the areas of where I experienced it made me feel safe but I never felt threatened in most circumstances.

But then I will remember a guy following me into a bathroom at a park (where we launched our boat once) or when a guy followed me from a restaurant (he was with a woman celebrating her birthday but kept staring at me) as I went to the restroom.  The building was separate from the restaurant (on the river) and he followed me out and grabbed me.  He was drunk but luckily a kitchen worker also was out there and heard me telling the guy to get off me and leave me alone.  He had ripped my shirt while he was rubbing up against me.  The dumb ass gave me his business card and told me to call him which just proved how drunk he was.  I mostly felt sorry for the girl he was with. 

If more of those situations happened my opinions would be different, however, those were few and they turned out ok for the most part and were in unusual locations (all boating related off the River).  Had those type things happened on a regular basis in a safer/nicer area I'd be freaked out by now and think most men are perverts.

It's all about one's perspective male or female. 

[Virgil Showlion]

Nov 3, 2014 12:16:41 GMT -5 Opti said:

Nov 3, 2014 11:54:53 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Nnnh. Seems like a pretty thin argument to me.

If the men have no hope of success, that leaves "posturing for friends" (as you've suggested) and "trying to annoy a random woman" as explanations for the behaviour. You might get a handful of guys cat calling at a woman simply to annoy her, but assuming it's a common motivation just isn't logical. For one thing, there are far easier ways to troll a woman than hooting about her attractiveness.

As for "posturing for friends", it doesn't explain the behaviour when the cat caller isn't accompanied by anybody, which is the case for the majority of the clips in the video.

I don't know on what basis you assert your "way below 1%" figure. You'd have to survey literally hundreds of NYC women to justify such a claim. Not only that, but for all we know the actress is walking round and round New York's swinger district where pick-up attempts succeed just as often as they fail. There's a reason this is being shot in New York rather than Sheepy Grove, Oregon, pop. 750.

Well Virgil I think Bills is closer than both of us to understanding the whys even though

you are male.

I assert my basis on RL experience, talking to other women, and the huge lack of stories

on the thread I created and in response to the video as supporting my point. Sorry, Virgil

what you are thinking, swinger district, really?

Well no offense, but the women you talk to and the women on NMSNM may not exactly be representative of women in every neighbourhood in New York. You're trying to extrapolate a few dozen respondents on a message board to 99+% of all women in some unknown neighbourhood in NYC. The argument just doesn't fly, especially since it doesn't match the evidence.

Nov 3, 2014 12:25:08 GMT -5 Opti said:

Nov 3, 2014 12:00:01 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

I meant for a protracted time. The actress in the video appears to say absolutely nothing to the men who follow her along for minutes at a time. Maybe it's different in New York, but in Toronto, if somebody follows you for a block or more and you don't want them following you, you say something. Even if it's just "Buzz off.", "I'm not giving you anything.", or "I'm going to mace you if you don't get lost."

Again, it was an artistic and creative decision to do so.

...

It doesn't matter why she did it, only that she did it.

The simple fact of the matter is that letting a stranger walk beside you for a long period of time without dismissing or rebuking them in any way sends a message.

[Deleted]

Nov 3, 2014 15:17:59 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Nov 3, 2014 12:16:41 GMT -5 Opti said:

Well Virgil I think Bills is closer than both of us to understanding the whys even though

you are male.

I assert my basis on RL experience, talking to other women, and the huge lack of stories

on the thread I created and in response to the video as supporting my point. Sorry, Virgil

what you are thinking, swinger district, really?

Well no offense, but the women you talk to and the women on NMSNM may not exactly be representative of women in every neighbourhood in New York. You're trying to extrapolate a few dozen respondents on a message board to 99+% of all women in some unknown neighbourhood in NYC. The argument just doesn't fly, especially since it doesn't match the evidence.

Nov 3, 2014 12:25:08 GMT -5 Opti said:

Again, it was an artistic and creative decision to do so.

...

It doesn't matter why she did it, only that she did it.

The simple fact of the matter is that letting a stranger walk beside you for a long period of time without dismissing or rebuking them in any way sends a message.

If you are scared to do or probably your gonna not do it.

[ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ]

I just got back from the grocery store, and oddly enough, after just posting here an hour ago, I was walking down one of aisles looking at the different cheeses.

When I found what I wanted and turned around to go the other direction, a younger man was walking toward me - he looked directly at me as he got closer, and said "Hi there - how are you doing today, my dear"?.

I just smiled and said "Fine thanks, and you?"

Should I have quickly kept moving without giving him a glance or word of acknowledgment, or whack him with my block of cheese for daring to be be so forward?

My first thought was how pleasant and polite he was - to me - a female stranger he happened to walk by. It was just a friendly greeting between two strangers in passing one happening to be male, the other female.

That's how most men should and do behave in public (maybe without the "my dear") - and why the video gives a very negative and wrong portrayal of the majority of the male population.

The best way I can think of to describe the behavior in the video is "ghetto trash" behavior. Not because of their race - but their attitude and demeanor. There's plenty of white "ghetto trash" in the world to go around too.

[Virgil Showlion]

Nov 3, 2014 15:28:52 GMT -5 @tiki said:

Nov 3, 2014 15:17:59 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Well no offense, but the women you talk to and the women on NMSNM may not exactly be representative of women in every neighbourhood in New York. You're trying to extrapolate a few dozen respondents on a message board to 99+% of all women in some unknown neighbourhood in NYC. The argument just doesn't fly, especially since it doesn't match the evidence.

It doesn't matter why she did it, only that she did it.

The simple fact of the matter is that letting a stranger walk beside you for a long period of time without dismissing or rebuking them in any way sends a message.

If you are scared to do or probably your gonna not do it.

Yes, but that presumes these "suitors" believe she's afraid.

Unlike Optimist, I don't think they're dominators or sadists. Lust explains their actions perfectly well as far as I'm concerned.

[Deleted]

Nov 3, 2014 15:39:40 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Nov 3, 2014 15:28:52 GMT -5 @tiki said:

If you are scared to do or probably your gonna not do it.

Yes, but that presumes these "suitors" believe she's afraid.

Unlike Optimist, I don't think they're dominators or sadists. Lust explains their actions perfectly well as far as I'm concerned.

No probably I am not clear. If I am scared to tell them maybe I'm gonna walk fast and look forward.

[Opti]

Its tough to discuss complicated subject matter. Especially in a forum like

this as its multiple people talking when they get a chance so misunderstandings

can be more prevalent than RL where people might take turns and make

comments right then.

Add in multiple personalities, multiple points of view, posters often mix

them up and mis-attribute someone's words to the wrong poster.

It can be a mess.

And Virgil, you are falling into the huge trap that has been happening on this

thread. You are trying to tell me what I am thinking based on your own beliefs.

You don't know. You asked a question, I answered. You don't like my answer

so you decided you knew better than I, what I actually extrapolated from.

[Opti]

Nov 3, 2014 15:39:40 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Nov 3, 2014 15:28:52 GMT -5 @tiki said:

If you are scared to do or probably your gonna not do it.

Yes, but that presumes these "suitors" believe she's afraid.

Unlike Optimist, I don't think they're dominators or sadists. Lust explains their actions perfectly well as far as I'm concerned.

Damn, Virgil!

You take exaggeration to a whole nother level.

We are discussing street harassment and SL is bringing in something totally different,

encounters in a grocery store.

I don't think they are sadists, I didn't even say they were dominators.

Why are you trying to put words in my mouth? WTE?

<This is a giant WTF, sarcastic comment>

Yes, of course walking on the streets of Manhattan straight ahead giving no

eye contact is totally the same as grocery shopping. being in a grocery store. 

Yes of course  your interactions should be entirely the same.

< WTF, WTE sarcastic comment end>

ETmodify: In grocery store, not actually grocery shopping correction

[ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ]

Add in multiple personalities, multiple points of view, posters often mix
them up and mis-attribute someone's words to the wrong poster.
It can be a mess.

but isn't that the nature and purpose of a forum? To get different opinions from people with varying personalities and views on a subject?

I expect the same when interacting/debating a subject with a person or group of people in R/L too. If we all had the same opinion, or what we feel is right or wrong, or how "we" as a whole should handle certain situations, there would be nothing to discuss - and you wouldn't get a better insight into that other person's personality, beliefs, disbeliefs, or stance on a subject - and we'd never fully understand (or try to understand) why some people feel the way they do, while others don't.

I've learned a lot by reading messages posted by people who have a different outlook on things than I previously did - or different beliefs -- and it's sometimes opened my eyes a bit more or caused me to change my opinion about something or look at it from another angle - or understand where they're coming from better.

And I wasn't talking about my grocery shopping - I was talking about being in the grocery store and having a stranger (male) approach and speak to me in passing.

[siralynn]

The arguments against the video in this thread serve to illustrate exactly why videos and discussions like this are needed. Guys deny it exists. A video gets made to illustrate it. Guys still deny it exists. Baffling.

Individual instances of cat-calling don't have any power over me. I've gotten so good at ignoring people in public that I usually don't even notice when people are trying to get my attention for a legitimate reason. (There was one time a couple of years ago that I was walking through San Francisco with my husband. Got to the next cross-walk and realized he wasn't with me. He was jogging to catch up from about a half a block back and was genuinely baffled that I hadn't noticed that some other people had tried to stop us to ask for directions.)

But nothing is going to change if ingrained cultural behavior isn't challenged. Cat-calling certainly isn't the most serious problem facing women in this culture, but it's definitely one of the visible examples of the pervasive sexism that's still affecting everything.

I like the rule that someone else listed somewhere upthread - if you wouldn't say it to a man you respected, shut up.

[Angel!]

IMO at least half the 'catcalls' and 'harassment' in the video are guys just being friendly. A lot of those people I just would have smiled & nodded at or replied with a 'hi' or 'good' when spoken too.

Yeah, there were a couple of creepy or rude guys in there. But, you walk around NYC for 10 hours, you are going to get some creeps.  They are the ones we should be looking at, not the guys that said 'good morning' in a polite manner.

Part of the reason I feel this way is my ex was overly friendly. He is the kind of guy that would have said 'good morning' or 'how you doing?' to a passing person. It wasn't done to be creepy or weird, but because he was friendly & grew up in the south. So, I've learned that a lot of the people that talk to you as you pass by are just normal people going about their day & being friendly.  Some were also obviously selling stuff, so they probably talk to everyone passing by.

This video & the reaction makes me think that instead of teaching guys to be less friendly, maybe we need to teach women to be less scared. Not everyone that says hi to you is a creep trying to intimidate you or harass you, so maybe stop looking at the world that way.  10 hours of walking & this is the best you got...2 minutes of video & at least half were just being friendly.