Woman Harrassed Simply By Walking in New York

[Opti]

One thing we can be assured of is that the men had an expectation of success. That is, they reasonably believed that the solicitation/flattery had a better-than-marginal chance of proving fruitful. Whether this is a function of where she was walking, how she was walking, what she was wearing, or some other circumstance, I don't know. What we can deduce is that women walking the streets of New York under similar circumstances must respond to such solicitation favourably often enough not to frustrate its use. This could mean that women respond favourably 2% of the time (1 in 50) or 50% of the time (1 in 2). Regardless, if this documentarian wants a faint hope of ending cat calls in New York, she'll have to address her message to the x% of women who respond favourably to cat calls.

Virgil, as posted earlier a page or two back, the documentarian is male and was the

film-maker along with the actress who volunteered to work on logistics of filming it.

I started another thread because I think men do this in spite of the fact they do not

get success. My guess is success rates are way below 1%. He volunteered to do it

because of the street harassment his GF deals with as a NYCer.

Men at construction sites probably have done it as a power play as a game with

their co-workers simply if they can make the woman look at them. That's it.

I don't think we should complain to anyone who succumbs even momentarily, because

if they are attention seekers, any attention is a win. I hope you would not make the

similarly mis-guided statement that the best way to combat email spam and those scamming

people out of money using the internet and email is to find their victims and say they are

the reason it is the way it is.

The creators of spam and the catcallers do it for their own reasons. In the case of what

Richard wants to kindly call commenters, unless it is Hello or Good Morning not Heellooooo,

they aren't content with a quick look or smile. It is not a dating ritual of any major city Virgil.

Otherwise the internet would have flooded with examples of happy meetings from catcalls

that resulted in dating bliss, instead they received lots of supportive emails and some

very negative emails which included sexual assault, rape threats.

I was surprised to learn that there are multiple organizations working on this, including

if I remember correctly one targeted towards the abuse of black women based in Atlanta.

[Opti]

The instances where the men followed her (the documentarian) for several minutes were creepy, although we have to acknowledge that she was behaving in an unorthodox manner, walking straight ahead and feigning disinterest rather than rebuffing her pursuers.

While her posture may have not be common of women walking alone on the street

it was chosen as a way to look and act so no one could say she was asking for it.

Likewise it was a deliberate choice to not respond. It was a film-making choice designed

most likely to say, here is how it happens even if you do nothing. No eye contact no response.

So for the people who have a deep need to have people agree the clip and video are not

normal conditions, I'll say correct. Filming someone who responds would put the focus

more on the actress and not the catcallers plus commenters. This is an issue that is repeatedly

seen as not that bad so many people have vested interest in not changing the status quo EVEN
WHEN THEY DISAGREE WITH THE MEN"S BEHAVIOR. Emphasis mine.

Some are afraid people won't be able to have flexible interactions and I think the fear is

basically ungrounded because most older adults know nicer ways to approach people they

are interested in. But for those who do not, and some may be wide swaths of sub-culture,

education can include right ways along with the wrong ways. Making society more civil and

pleasant to me seems like an admirable goal even when it was on the behalf of ethnic groups

and LBGT which I am not part of. The attitudes and expectations of the creators of street

harassment go farther than the street. Since it most definitely has a gender and sexual component

one can rest easier knowing these groups combating it have given it a different category than

sexual harassment so just hearing the term as two words in either case tells you which kind

you are dealing with.

[zibazinski]

Nov 2, 2014 20:23:22 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

Nov 2, 2014 11:18:25 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

Funny but not really how three guys and one woman think this is okay. No wonder this shit still happens.

Funny (but not really) how people are having trouble grasping that no one thinks harassment is o.k.... just some of us know that this (in the video) ISN'T harassment.

Its not HARASSMENT to YOU. It is to many women, not ALL women, obviously. But to most, it is. It's a shame that in this day and age, a woman is still judged for not walking where she should be walking to avoid being harassed and people actually think its okay to say these things. It's also funny that if she retaliated for the rude comments or if all women started to, they would stop, for the most part. Pigs pretending to be men, say this shit cause they can do it with no retaliation. Retaliation would stop it. It offends me that someone would say that women have to learn not to be victims. Would you also say this for someone being bullied or someone gay? Just "get over it? Or fight back? Serious crap being said here and it's pretty awful to think people actually think this way.

[billisonboard]

Nov 3, 2014 8:32:07 GMT -5 Opti said:

... Men at construction sites probably have done it as a power play as a game with their co-workers simply if they can make the woman look at them. That's it. I don't think we should complain to anyone who succumbs even momentarily, because if they are attention seekers, any attention is a win. ...

So the male gains power if the female looks since he wins the game. He loses the game and thus power of she doesn't look. If the woman is an attention seeker and looks, they both gain power since both gain what they want. If the woman doesn't look, she gains power since she makes the guy lose. So the only way a woman loses power is if she doesn't want to look but does in fact look. Correct? 

[billisonboard]

Nov 3, 2014 9:04:19 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

... It's also funny that if she retaliated for the rude comments or if all women started to, they would stop, for the most part. ... Retaliation would stop it. It offends me that someone would say that women have to learn not to be victims. ...

[Deleted]

Nov 3, 2014 9:04:19 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

Nov 2, 2014 20:23:22 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

Funny (but not really) how people are having trouble grasping that no one thinks harassment is o.k.... just some of us know that this (in the video) ISN'T harassment.

Its not HARASSMENT to YOU. It is to many women, not ALL women, obviously. But to most, it is. It's a shame that in this day and age, a woman is still judged for not walking where she should be walking to avoid being harassed and people actually think its okay to say these things. It's also funny that if she retaliated for the rude comments or if all women started to, they would stop, for the most part. Pigs pretending to be men, say this shit cause they can do it with no retaliation. Retaliation would stop it. It offends me that someone would say that women have to learn not to be victims. Would you also say this for someone being bullied or someone gay? Just "get over it? Or fight back? Serious crap being said here and it's pretty awful to think people actually think this way.

Ifa she will respond to "commenters" they will take it to the next level.

If she will be angry to "commenters" that follow her possibly she will get beat. But probably she better just get over it if she got beat?

[Deleted]

Nov 2, 2014 20:37:44 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Nov 2, 2014 20:23:22 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

Funny (but not really) how people are having trouble grasping that no one thinks harassment is o.k.... just some of us know that this (in the video) ISN'T harassment.

I agree that most is not harassment but also, speaking only for myself, don't think a number of comments heard in the video are "okay" although they don't qualify as harassment. My concern is in devaluing actual harassment.

I've been in clubs where men think it's ok to touch women's butts when they walk by. I've had men I don't know try to insist I give them a hug. I've had men I don't know try to get practically nose to nose or shoulder to shoulder to talk to me. A couple weeks ago, I had a man follow me to my car trying to make me give him a quarter. All of that is alarming behavior, and better examples of men exibititng predatory behavior toward and harassing women, than  random men saying "how you doing" or "have a good evening". Just my opinion.

Last night, my brother and I got in an elevator at the same time as 2 men. My brother said "how y'all doing" to the other men. My brother isn't gay, that's just what we do here. I've been out with guys that speak to other men. In certain areas, it's "what's up", or some other phrase I can't think of right now. So, for the people that think men only speak to women they think are vulnerable and/or attractive, that's not true. That's why I don't think men saying something to me is necessarily harassment or that they're singling me out as potential prey, or even that they must find me attractive. Again, this is the south. People speak to strangers here.

[Opti]

I used to be the "shrinking violet" when I was younger but I learned quickly how to deter unwanted advances or quell a situation quickly without any harm or misunderstanding. A friend of my DH was a Police Sergeant and he was also an instructor in personal protection and awareness - especially for women.

You are a victim if you choose to be one - or you can learn techniques to not be one.

That's great you had that experience and had a police sergeant who had personal

protection experience. I think you are also not a petite small woman if memory serves.

Yes, we can all learn techniques, but unlike you I think it would be great if I would

have to use them less. Its pushing responsibility onto the receiver of bad behavior instead

of the creator and that to me seems another sign of letting some people, bad acting men,

have no responsibility for their behavior and the thoughts that cause them to do it in the first

place.

I can say the same stuff about domestic violence, and like street harassment much of it

becomes a problem based on continual exposure and the personal dynamics of the situation.

We need to keep pushing back the responsibility of bad behavior on the people who do it,

not those who receive it. To not do so, means stay at a certain level of bad behavior.

Thank God at least some people thought we should move on from Mad Men type workplaces.

Hopefully in 2030, we can look back at our more pleasant streets even scarier areas with

thankfulness things have improved.

The problem will not improve if we as a society say it is simply a rite of passage and

something some females will have to deal with more than others. Come to the light.

Be willing to create a better world. I know we will not achieve a society where everyone

is kind and polite to each other, but if we strive to it other interactions will improve.

[Deleted]

Nov 3, 2014 9:23:16 GMT -5 @pinkcshmere said:

Nov 2, 2014 20:37:44 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

I agree that most is not harassment but also, speaking only for myself, don't think a number of comments heard in the video are "okay" although they don't qualify as harassment. My concern is in devaluing actual harassment.

I've been in clubs where men think it's ok to touch women's butts when they walk by. I've had men I don't know try to insist I give them a hug. I've had men I don't know try to get practically nose to nose or shoulder to shoulder to talk to me. A couple weeks ago, I had a man follow me to my car trying to make me give him a quarter. All of that is alarming behavior, and better examples of men exibititng predatory behavior toward and harassing women, than  random men saying "how you doing" or "have a good evening". Just my opinion.

Last night, my brother and I got in an elevator at the same time as 2 men. My brother said "how y'all doing" to the other men. My brother isn't gay, that's just what we do here. I've been out with guys that speak to other men. In certain areas, it's "what's up", or some other phrase I can't think of right now. So, for the people that think men only speak to women they think are vulnerable and/or attractive, that's not true. That's why I don't think men saying something to me is necessarily harassment or that they're singling me out as potential prey, or even that they must find me attractive. Again, this is the south. People speak to strangers here.

Probably mostly people don't have a problem with hello how are you and such.

[Bonny]

Nov 3, 2014 0:43:58 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

Nov 2, 2014 23:03:12 GMT -5 Bonny said:

I did not mis-read your post. I don't why you think I did.

It is absolutely a power play to make someone feel uncomfortable.

Here's what started this chain (see the quote that follows)... notice in MY portion the word "compliment" doesn't exist, yet in YOUR portion (your rebuttal) you suggest I should take it as a "compliment" (I'll bold it for you, so you can see it easier) if the same comment were to be directed at my wife or daughter.

Do you seriously NOT see how that's your flawed interpretation rising up?

Nov 1, 2014 21:48:12 GMT -5 Bonny said:

So you wouldn't have any response to a perfect stranger saying to your wife or/and daughter "Nice boobs or nice ass" while you were walking next to her because that's a compliment.

Apparently you missed the sarcasm in my statement.

Wow.

[Opti]

Nov 3, 2014 9:10:41 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Nov 3, 2014 8:32:07 GMT -5 Opti said:

... Men at construction sites probably have done it as a power play as a game with their co-workers simply if they can make the woman look at them. That's it. I don't think we should complain to anyone who succumbs even momentarily, because if they are attention seekers, any attention is a win. ...

So the male gains power if the female looks since he wins the game. He loses the game and thus power of she doesn't look. If the woman is an attention seeker and looks, they both gain power since both gain what they want. If the woman doesn't look, she gains power since she makes the guy lose. So the only way a woman loses power is if she doesn't want to look but does in fact look. Correct? 

Its more complex than that. Its like how kids band together to pick on someone weaker.

Do they gain any more power doing so, or was just the fact they got a group to go along

with them letting them know what power they did have?

Construction workers don't get dates from women they verbally abuse. Its sport. Like

heckling a comedian. You do it for your fun at the expense of the someone else. Simple.

Unlike the comedian, there often isn't a power move really. Because if you shut him

down in front of his buddies or even his own sense of entitlement/ego, odds are high

his preferred move is to reoffend but differently.

If the woman doesn't look or the comedian does not respond, they don't necessarily gain

or lose anything. At best, they decline to let their heckler make them respond.

[Bonny]

Nov 3, 2014 0:48:24 GMT -5 ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ said:

I used to be the "shrinking violet" when I was younger but I learned quickly how to deter unwanted advances or quell a situation quickly without any harm or misunderstanding. A friend of my DH was a Police Sergeant and he was also an instructor in personal protection and awareness - especially for women.

You are a victim if you choose to be one - or you can learn techniques to not be one.

I was taught to ignore them. Look straight ahead, no eye contact et cetera. Engaging them by responding just encourages them.

In other words, very similar to what the actress did.

I think it's a sad commentary that women need to go to a police instructor so they can deal with street harassers.

[Tennesseer]

...although we have to acknowledge that she was behaving in an unorthodox manner, walking straight ahead and feigning disinterest...

I am not sure whose quote this is but who ever it wrote it has never worked or lived in NYC. Nothing at all unorthodox about walking straight ahead and feigning disinterest. Failure to do so will result in every Tom, Dick, Harry or Mary bothering you for one thing or another. Been there and done that.

Personal space in NYC is a precious commodity.

[Opti]

FWIW, I think the Hellos in the video were kept in to contrast the seeming

nice hello type two sentences the man who followed her for 5 minutes gave.

Sometimes a rose is just a rose, and other times its a flower sitting on a bunch

of sharp pointy thorns.

Non-verbal and intention are 90% of communication. Most hellos are nice.

Some want you to buy their stuff, some want to have a conversation, and

others might have more sinister reasons. For example, I bet lots of child

predators open with nice statements like Hello instead of Heeellooooooo.

Communication is all about intent. It is conveyed by words, posture, eyes

and countless nonverbal cues.

[Deleted]

Nov 3, 2014 9:27:15 GMT -5 @tiki said:

Nov 3, 2014 9:23:16 GMT -5 @pinkcshmere said:

I've been in clubs where men think it's ok to touch women's butts when they walk by. I've had men I don't know try to insist I give them a hug. I've had men I don't know try to get practically nose to nose or shoulder to shoulder to talk to me. A couple weeks ago, I had a man follow me to my car trying to make me give him a quarter. All of that is alarming behavior, and better examples of men exibititng predatory behavior toward and harassing women, than  random men saying "how you doing" or "have a good evening". Just my opinion.

Last night, my brother and I got in an elevator at the same time as 2 men. My brother said "how y'all doing" to the other men. My brother isn't gay, that's just what we do here. I've been out with guys that speak to other men. In certain areas, it's "what's up", or some other phrase I can't think of right now. So, for the people that think men only speak to women they think are vulnerable and/or attractive, that's not true. That's why I don't think men saying something to me is necessarily harassment or that they're singling me out as potential prey, or even that they must find me attractive. Again, this is the south. People speak to strangers here.

Probably mostly people don't have a problem with hello how are you and such.

I think we can all agree that nobody wants to hear inappropriate or crude comments from strangers. But it seems that some people seem to have a problem with men saying anything at all to women walking alone.

[Opti]

Nov 3, 2014 9:41:01 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

...although we have to acknowledge that she was behaving in an unorthodox manner, walking straight ahead and feigning disinterest...

I am not sure whose quote this is but who ever it wrote it has never worked or lived in NYC. Nothing at all unorthodox about walking straight ahead and feigning disinterest. Failure to do so will result in every Tom, Dick, Harry or Mary bothering you for one thing or another. Been there and done that.

Personal space in NYC is a precious commodity.

Our friend Virgil in Toronto. Perhaps he needs a field trip to parts of Manhattan, Queens

and the Bronx.

[Opti]

Nov 3, 2014 9:43:12 GMT -5 @pinkcshmere said:

Nov 3, 2014 9:27:15 GMT -5 @tiki said:

Probably mostly people don't have a problem with hello how are you and such.

I think we can all agree that nobody wants to hear inappropriate or crude comments from strangers. But it seems that some people seem to have a problem with men saying anything at all to women walking alone.

Name one female poster here that indeed said that.

[Tennesseer]

Nov 3, 2014 9:46:15 GMT -5 Opti said:

Nov 3, 2014 9:41:01 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

I am not sure whose quote this is but who ever it wrote it has never worked or lived in NYC. Nothing at all unorthodox about walking straight ahead and feigning disinterest. Failure to do so will result in every Tom, Dick, Harry or Mary bothering you for one thing or another. Been there and done that.

Personal space in NYC is a precious commodity.

Our friend Virgil in Toronto. Perhaps he needs a field trip to parts of Manhattan, Queens

and the Bronx.

Add even the best streets in Manhattan and subways and buses every where there and we have it covered.

[billisonboard]

Nov 3, 2014 9:36:09 GMT -5 Opti said:

... Unlike the comedian, there often isn't a power move really. Because if you shut him down in front of his buddies or even his own sense of entitlement/ego, odds are high his preferred move is to reoffend but differently.
...

I think this is an area we seriously disagree.  IM(not so)HO, the construction worker is acting out of his powerlessness, not from a position of power. He is the pimply-faced young boy attempting to get the attention of the head cheerleader. I do agree that he will tend to respond in an adolescent way when she (again) ignores him. 

[Opti]

Nov 3, 2014 10:00:01 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Nov 3, 2014 9:36:09 GMT -5 Opti said:

... Unlike the comedian, there often isn't a power move really. Because if you shut him down in front of his buddies or even his own sense of entitlement/ego, odds are high his preferred move is to reoffend but differently.
...

I think this is an area we seriously disagree.  IM(not so)HO, the construction worker is acting out of his powerlessness, not from a position of power. He is the pimply-faced young boy attempting to get the attention of the head cheerleader. I do agree that he will tend to respond in an adolescent way when she (again) ignores him. 

Bills, I am far from the head cheerleader. But I have had the figure. Its big men with

tools, often one story up or more. On the other hand, the guys working on the building

I work at have all been nice to me and vice versa.

If it is old male wounds acting out, how do you suggest we deal with that? Because then

shutting him down reinforces the wound, not looking up reinforces the wound and looking

makes more men willing to do the same.

[Bonny]

Nov 3, 2014 10:00:01 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Nov 3, 2014 9:36:09 GMT -5 Opti said:

... Unlike the comedian, there often isn't a power move really. Because if you shut him down in front of his buddies or even his own sense of entitlement/ego, odds are high his preferred move is to reoffend but differently.
...

I think this is an area we seriously disagree.  IM(not so)HO, the construction worker is acting out of his powerlessness, not from a position of power. He is the pimply-faced young boy attempting to get the attention of the head cheerleader. I do agree that he will tend to respond in an adolescent way when she (again) ignores him. 

This!  (or some form of this) regardless of chronological age of the harasser.

He puts a woman down to make himself feel better. What it really does is reinforce what a loser he really is. If he's bigger or with a crowd he knows she won't fight back.

In an earlier post Bill you stated that men shouldn't have to fight women's battles. What good men CAN do is to tell their adolescent friends to "Knock it off" or "That's not cool" vs laughing or remaining silent which can give the impression to both the aggressor and the victim that you approve.

[Deleted]

Nov 2, 2014 2:23:46 GMT -5 Opti said:

Nov 2, 2014 1:31:51 GMT -5 ZaireinHD said:

so in your opinion a quality guy, stranger, in public can't say "hello" to you without him being disrespectful?
that's deep

a quality guy, stranger, in public can't say "looking good beautiful" to you without him being disrespectful?
 

A stranger can say hello in public in certain situations. Not when I am walking, not looking

at people with a destination in mind. Strolling or meandering on a street or sidewalk. Perhaps.

Waiting in line, better.

But yes, looking good beautiful, bad choice. Its basically telling me he does not

have an interest in me as a person. He is interested in my looks. My personality

and uniqueness is likely optional. Its not a respectful opening comment. Not sure

if I'd rate it as disrespectful as much as a poor choice of opening line.

You said it, for one, Opti. Did I misunderstand the bolded part of this quote? I believe another poster said they don't understand why people think it's ok to say anything at all to strangers. I don't have time to go back through the thread to find it though.

[billisonboard]

Nov 3, 2014 10:13:54 GMT -5 Opti said:

Nov 3, 2014 10:00:01 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

I think this is an area we seriously disagree.  IM(not so)HO, the construction worker is acting out of his powerlessness, not from a position of power. He is the pimply-faced young boy attempting to get the attention of the head cheerleader. I do agree that he will tend to respond in an adolescent way when she (again) ignores him. 

Bills, I am far from the head cheerleader. But I have had the figure. Its big men with

tools, often one story up or more. On the other hand, the guys working on the building

I work at have all been nice to me and vice versa.

If it is old male wounds acting out, how do you suggest we deal with that? Because then

shutting him down reinforces the wound, not looking up reinforces the wound and looking

makes more men willing to do the same.

First off is awareness of the true nature of what is happening. Remember the "too ugly" guy in the video? Is he a powerful man harassing a poor helpless female? Or is he a victim of a socialization process that has twisted him into believing that he can find fulfillment if only he can be with someone who fits what society has taught him to be desired?

When we look around, we see that it is mainly males who possess economic and structural power in our society (and mainly white males). Females do have little such power. It is an easy jump to therefore assume that if someone is male, particularly a white male, that they have power. And to a certain level it is true that white male privilege does exist. But it is a double edged sword. In situations where it doesn't exist and the male is faced with their powerlessness, it can lead to tragic results. Murder\suicides come to mind.

Males have almost no power when one looks at the emotional side of power. Our society tends to stunt males in this area. I think this is changing but slowly and very unevenly just as females power growth in economic power.

I see the video message of "look at these bad men doing bad things - shame, shame" as counterproductive to progress.

[Bonny]

Pink, I think it was Zib.

I don't have a problem if folks say "Hi" or "How ya doing?". When I'm out hiking I do it all the time. But no one "owes" you a response.

I do have a problem with "Hellooooo" or some of the other "comments" that were said. Even the guy who said "Smile" comes across as ordering her around. He wouldn't say that to a guy.

[billisonboard]

Nov 3, 2014 11:17:11 GMT -5 Bonny said:

... Even the guy who said "Smile" comes across as ordering her around. He wouldn't say that to a guy.

What is it in the male socialization process that makes males think it is their responsibility to make females happy? You'd think that there was a constant bombardment of that message they way act.

[zibazinski]

Nov 3, 2014 11:04:13 GMT -5 @pinkcshmere said:

Nov 2, 2014 2:23:46 GMT -5 Opti said:

A stranger can say hello in public in certain situations. Not when I am walking, not looking

at people with a destination in mind. Strolling or meandering on a street or sidewalk. Perhaps.

Waiting in line, better.

But yes, looking good beautiful, bad choice. Its basically telling me he does not

have an interest in me as a person. He is interested in my looks. My personality

and uniqueness is likely optional. Its not a respectful opening comment. Not sure

if I'd rate it as disrespectful as much as a poor choice of opening line.

You said it, for one, Opti. Did I misunderstand the bolded part of this quote? I believe another poster said they don't understand why people think it's ok to say anything at all to strangers. I don't have time to go back through the thread to find it though.

It was me, btw, and I stand by it. I don't welcome total strangers talking to me if I'm alone, period. Because of "men" and even some "womens" attitudes that I'm either not hardy enough to take their abuse or I'm welcoming it because I dared be out alone in public. If you don't know the person, leave them the hell alone. The idea that someone thinks it's okay to harass a perfect stranger boggles the mind. I have also lived in the south and gentlemen do not harass women when they are alone and could misinterpret their talk. I have talked to people, even strangers in public places where there are other people around me, but now I feel even nervous about that considering some of the remarks made on what I would have thought was a somewhat educated forum.

[Opti]

Males have almost no power when one looks at the emotional side of power. Our society tends to stunt males in this area. I think this is changing but slowly and very unevenly just as females power growth in economic power.

I see the video message of "look at these bad men doing bad things - shame, shame" as counterproductive to progress.

OK. Sounds like very valid points.

I would totally be behind changing the dynamic emotionally for men so there

is more progress on knowing what you feel and learning how to deal with powerful

emotions society tells them to suppress.

Perhaps you could email or tweet at least one of these organizations some suggestions

or ideas?

[Deleted]

Nov 3, 2014 11:17:11 GMT -5 Bonny said:

Pink, I think it was Zib.

I don't have a problem if folks say "Hi" or "How ya doing?". When I'm out hiking I do it all the time. But no one "owes" you a response.

I do have a problem with "Hellooooo" or some of the other "comments" that were said. Even the guy who said "Smile" comes across as ordering her around. He wouldn't say that to a guy.

Yes, I was referring to Zib, but I wasn't going to call her out since I wasn't going to go look for the post. Lol

Apparently I frown a lot, even when I'm not upset. People comment on that too, and tell me to smile. If I really am in a bad mood or upset, I probably look at them crazy or frown more, if I'm in a decent mood and don't realize I'm frowning, it doesn't really bother me. I don't really want to walk around looking all mad and mean all the time, but apparently I do, because I've heard about it from people I know AND people I don't know.

[Opti]

Nov 3, 2014 11:04:13 GMT -5 @pinkcshmere said:

Nov 2, 2014 2:23:46 GMT -5 Opti said:

A stranger can say hello in public in certain situations. Not when I am walking, not looking

at people with a destination in mind. Strolling or meandering on a street or sidewalk. Perhaps.

Waiting in line, better.

But yes, looking good beautiful, bad choice. Its basically telling me he does not

have an interest in me as a person. He is interested in my looks. My personality

and uniqueness is likely optional. Its not a respectful opening comment. Not sure

if I'd rate it as disrespectful as much as a poor choice of opening line.

You said it, for one, Opti. Did I misunderstand the bolded part of this quote? I believe another poster said they don't understand why people think it's ok to say anything at all to strangers. I don't have time to go back through the thread to find it though.

I said it was OK in certain situations certain intentions.

I do not think you will find anyone who posted no hellos ever on the street.

No one has posted that hello and good morning everywhere always should be avoided on the street.

Many people, not me, are assuming that is what the released video says, only because some are

included. Being a studier of films and film-makers I know that may not be the intention.

I did say the equivalent of if you adopt a closed of posture like the actress did, you are

doing everything humanly nonverbally possible saying even Hello is not welcome.

[ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ]

I have talked to people, even strangers in public places where there are other people around me, but now I feel even nervous about that considering some of the remarks made on what I would have thought was a somewhat educated forum.

That's an interesting comment. Are you saying we all have to be in agreement for it to be a somewhat educated forum? I though the purpose of message board forums like this one was to discuss issues - and get opinions from both sides of a topic.

That's what makes it become an educated forum. We probably all have learned something new here, or changed our mind about something after looking at it from another angle or viewpoint.

If we all thought the same way, or were in constant agreement, it would be a pretty boring forum, and there'd be nothing to discuss, debate OR learn.