Woman Harrassed Simply By Walking in New York

[Deleted]

Nov 2, 2014 19:07:06 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

Tenn's point of view seems to be more reasonable that the others that say she was "asking for it." Don't lump him with the others. 

Ya he gets it I think.

[Shooby]

Nov 2, 2014 19:25:51 GMT -5 Sum Dum Gai said:

This video doesn't reflect the attitudes and behavior of the overall general male population - in North America, or Europe and other western cultures. Not even close - and not even 1/100 of a percent.

Source?

I didn't realize you were so versed on street harassment statistics.  Please tell the rest of us where we can go read these statistics and studies.

Yes site your source or link for that please. I would be interested to read more.

[Virgil Showlion]

What's this video about? Do I want to watch it?

It's either very entertaining or very disturbing if you guys have been going on about it for 15 pages.

[ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ]

What's this video about? Do I want to watch it?

It's either very entertaining or very disturbing if you guys have been going on about it for 15 pages.

It was only 10 pgs yesterday.

I think you should view it and give us your perspective. It's only a short 2 minutes of your time.

I'd be interested in what you think about it - from a male perspective - was it verbal assault or threats of physical harm as some claim?

Your opinion is usually from a more logical and analytical approach. I'd like to know what YOU think of the video - and which side of the fence you sit on.

[Deleted]

Nov 2, 2014 19:38:52 GMT -5 ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ said:

What's this video about? Do I want to watch it?

It's either very entertaining or very disturbing if you guys have been going on about it for 15 pages.

It was only 10 pgs yesterday.

I think you should view it and give us your perspective. It's only a short 2 minutes of your time.

I'd be interested in what you think about it - from a male perspective - was it verbal assault or threats of physical harm as some claim?

Your opinion is usually from a more logical and analytical approach. I'd like to know what YOU think of the video - and which side of the fence you sit on.

My husband looked at it with me and he thought mostly they are like young boys that didn't grow up.

[billisonboard]

Nov 2, 2014 19:41:30 GMT -5 @tiki said:

... My husband looked at it with me and he thought mostly they are like young boys that didn't grow up.

So much as I view it.

[Deleted]

Nov 2, 2014 19:48:54 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Nov 2, 2014 19:41:30 GMT -5 @tiki said:

... My husband looked at it with me and he thought mostly they are like young boys that didn't grow up.

So much as I view it.

But HE did not excuse them and blame her. He said if she will like to meet pigs probably she will go to a farm.

[billisonboard]

Nov 2, 2014 19:57:22 GMT -5 @tiki said:

Nov 2, 2014 19:48:54 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

So much as I view it.

But HE did not excuse them and blame her. He said if she will like to meet pigs probably she will go to a farm.

I have not done so either.

[Deleted]

I finally watched the darn video, mostly because of SL's comments about the neighborhood being predominately black and wondering what would've happened if it was filmed in a predominantly white or Asian area. Anyway..... it wasn't quite what I expected from skipping around in this thread. The guy walking next to her silently would have been a problem for me. The guy walking with her and asking if he was too ugly for her to talk to him, probably would've gone away if she'd said she wasn't interested, which is what I would've done. "How you doing", "have a good day", seems harmless to me as long I can say "I'm good", "thanks, you too" and keep moving. I'm pretty good at ignoring lame comments and that's what most of the other comments were.

I dunno, I understand that if you want to be able to walk around with no one ever saying a word to you, that's just what you want. But I don't really agree that just because people speak to you or say "hi beautiful" that it's harrassment. You may get tired of hearing it from different people, but I don't think those things are harrassment unless it's the same person or group of people trying to force you to respond. 

Except for the silent stalker, I didn't see anything in the video that would have made me fearful or more than mildly irritated.

[8 Bit WWBG]

...:::"Those women aren't really real. The photos have been the equivalent of photo shopped.":::...

Bonny I wasn't thinking of the VS models -- yeah, I've watched the "reveal" videos showing the amount of digital magic that goes into them.  And as a reasonably competent PS user myself, I appreciate the complexity of the work.  But my mall hottie, and the woman in the 2 minute video was real enough for me and many other guys who wish we could get remotely close to that.

I bring up the store experience because while I think its easy to agree that the overt catcalling is wrong, I don't think there is only one line in the sand.  Maybe mall hottie just wanted to shop without guys fawning over her.  Even if the guys are totally polite and non-threatening -- even if they don't "harass" her -- the attention is probably still unwelcome.  There is no red/green light which indicates who wants the attention, and who doesn't.

[Malarky]

Nov 2, 2014 20:04:16 GMT -5 @pinkcshmere said:

I finally watched the darn video, mostly because of SL's comments about the neighborhood being predominately black and wondering what would've happened if it was filmed in a predominantly white or Asian area. Anyway..... it wasn't quite what I expected from skipping around in this thread. The guy walking next to her silently would have been a problem for me. The guy walking with her and asking if he was too ugly for her to talk to him, probably would've gone away if she'd said she wasn't interested, which is what I would've done. "How you doing", "have a good day", seems harmless to me as long I can say "I'm good", "thanks, you too" and keep moving. I'm pretty good at ignoring lame comments and that's what most of the other comments were.

I dunno, I understand that if you want to be able to walk around with no one ever saying a word to you, that's just what you want. But I don't really agree that just because people speak to you or say "hi beautiful" that it's harrassment. You may get tired of hearing it from different people, but I don't think those things are harrassment unless it's the same person or group of people trying to force you to respond. 

Except for the silent stalker, I didn't see anything in the video that would have made me fearful or more than mildly irritated.

This.

You choose how to react to it.

[Bonny]

Nov 2, 2014 20:04:16 GMT -5 @pinkcshmere said:

I finally watched the darn video, mostly because of SL's comments about the neighborhood being predominately black and wondering what would've happened if it was filmed in a predominantly white or Asian area. Anyway..... it wasn't quite what I expected from skipping around in this thread. The guy walking next to her silently would have been a problem for me. The guy walking with her and asking if he was too ugly for her to talk to him, probably would've gone away if she'd said she wasn't interested, which is what I would've done. "How you doing", "have a good day", seems harmless to me as long I can say "I'm good", "thanks, you too" and keep moving. I'm pretty good at ignoring lame comments and that's what most of the other comments were.

I dunno, I understand that if you want to be able to walk around with no one ever saying a word to you, that's just what you want. But I don't really agree that just because people speak to you or say "hi beautiful" that it's harrassment. You may get tired of hearing it from different people, but I don't think those things are harrassment unless it's the same person or group of people trying to force you to respond. 

Except for the silent stalker, I didn't see anything in the video that would have made me fearful or more than mildly irritated.

One of the points we were trying to make is that most of the comments that were made would not have been made had the actor been male or an older woman.

[Deleted]

Nov 2, 2014 10:37:55 GMT -5 Bonny said:

Nov 1, 2014 21:54:58 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

Boy, you really DON'T know how to read without biased misinterpretation... do you?

I didn't say "compliment" I said "comment".

My wife would react however she would react. She's a grown adult woman. I don't assume that she can;t respond for herself (however, I can tell you how SHE would act: She'd say "yes, they are!" to "nice boobs", and she'd say "Yes, it is!" or "Thanks!" to "nice ass").

I don't have a daughter, but if I did, and she was under-age, I'd probably be none-too-pleased with the comment. But I'd still understand that it's JUST a comment.

Biased? How about experienced! I've lived through it. Nearly every day until I was about 45 some a-hole needed make a comment about my body. How would YOU feel if you had to run the verbal gauntlet every day?

And I call Bullshit on the bolded part. If you had a daughter you'd want to punch him in the nose. And depending on the jerk's size and whether he was alone or with a group you would.

But here's the point. Guys don't make comments like that when a girl or woman is with a man. They only do it when she's alone. They make the calculated decision that she won't fight back. It's a sleazy power play. They win she loses. And they're right. She's not going punch every a-hole who whistles or makes some kind of comment. She'd never get to where she's going!

Biased because I very clearly wrote "comment" yet you interpreted "compliment".

"Want to punch him in the nose" / "be none-too-pleased"... basically the same thing in my book. Since there would actually be no physical action (in case that wasn't clear enough, I may WANT to... but I wouldn't... because words are just words).

I call BS on your BS that it's a sleazy power play. Just because that's how YOU and other feminists incorrectly see it as such, doesn't make it so.

[Deleted]

Nov 2, 2014 11:18:25 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

Funny but not really how three guys and one woman think this is okay. No wonder this shit still happens.

Funny (but not really) how people are having trouble grasping that no one thinks harassment is o.k.... just some of us know that this (in the video) ISN'T harassment.

[Deleted]

Nov 2, 2014 12:20:44 GMT -5 Bonny said:

Nov 2, 2014 12:02:21 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

I am questioning the strategy being used to battle the issue.

Making a video demonstrating the behavior isn't helpful?

Me confronting my father's behavior after he was banned from my mother's and brother's office and demanding that he look at it from a potential victim's point of view isn't helpful?

Egypt covers up its women and has a separate women's only  subway car on the Cairo metro. I don't think that's an acceptable solution as it perpetuates that women bring it on themselves.

I'm truly at a loss. What would you do to stop it?

Making a video that demonstrated the behavior would be VERY helpful... Maybe they should have done that instead of the one that they made...

[ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ]

Nov 2, 2014 19:48:54 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Nov 2, 2014 19:41:30 GMT -5 @tiki said:

... My husband looked at it with me and he thought mostly they are like young boys that didn't grow up.

So much as I view it.

Or weren't taught manners & respect of anyone else- regardless of gender. The fact they think it's okay to call out like this to a stranger or treat them like a piece of meat - and one of the opposite sex in particular, shows they didn't get taught - or didn't care to learn.

"Street Mentality" is one name given to their behavior or lack of respect - also described as "gangsta" or punk attitudes.

The video doesn't depict the general attitudes and respect shown by the vast majority of males in our society - and how they interact/treat females, other males, or co-workers, subordinate, superiors.

This is a handful of a$$holes behaving like a$$holes - on one one street in one VERY large city (NYC) on a very well-chosen street (sort of run-down with closed up shops, graffiti, etc.)

I've worked in male-dominated careers most of my life, had more male friends than female - and worked in areas of my city that would be considered unsafe in earlier careers when I was still "young and hot".

Did I pay attention to my surroundings? Yes. Were there men hanging around on street corners? Yes. Did they bother me? No.

A few would be panhandling, or say "good morning" or "good afternoon". Most were harmless and just wanted some loose change to buy their next six-pack - as they were down on their luck alcoholics.

The men in the video could have just watched her walk by and said nothing - or left her alone.

It was wrong to approach her, and even more wrong to follow after her. But some of you are acting like this is the overall behavior of our male population.

No wonder women are still having to fight for equality or still hold on to the feeling of being oppressed or victimized. I treat humans as humans - their gender or status makes little difference to me when interacting verbally or working side-by-side, or passing on the street.

If someone says something inappropriate to me I'll let them know bluntly it's unacceptable and I won't put up with it. Doesn't matter if they're male or female. Doesn't matter the setting. Women can be equally as verbally nasty - especially if they're in a position of power in the workforce. They usually hold their superiority over other women in a lower chain of command in their office and treat them less respectfully than their male colleagues. It's a double-standard.

[billisonboard]

Nov 2, 2014 20:23:22 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

Nov 2, 2014 11:18:25 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

Funny but not really how three guys and one woman think this is okay. No wonder this shit still happens.

Funny (but not really) how people are having trouble grasping that no one thinks harassment is o.k.... just some of us know that this (in the video) ISN'T harassment.

I agree that most is not harassment but also, speaking only for myself, don't think a number of comments heard in the video are "okay" although they don't qualify as harassment. My concern is in devaluing actual harassment.

[Deleted]

Nov 2, 2014 16:41:40 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

Nov 1, 2014 20:56:02 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

It's not "my" book... it's the Oxford English Dictionary.

Harassment: NOUN - Aggressive pressure or intimidation

"good morning" is not "pressure" or "intimidation" (aggressive or otherwise)
"nice dress" is not "pressure" or "intimidation" (aggressive or otherwise)
"want to get a drink?" is not "pressure" or "intimidation" (aggressive or otherwise)
heck... even "nice b**bs" or "nice a$$" is not "pressure" or "intimidation" (aggressive or otherwise)

They are all comments or opinion.

"Pressure" or "intimidation" are situations of "do {whatever} or else {bad consequence, with some form of 'will happen'}"

So, would these same people say "nice pants!" to a man? How about "Want to get a drink?" or "Nice ass!"
They would not. They're doing it for the secondary gain of sex and that's pressure and intimidation.
Would they say it to a 75 yr old woman? Again....no. It's always in the expectation of "getting some", and it's annoying as hell.

If they were interested in men they just might. It's been a while, but I've had men AND women say "nice ass" to me back when I was in my 20's (and in MUCH better shape). I didn't feel degraded (even the men {whom I guessed were gay} didn't bother me, and I'm a ZERO on the Kinsey Scale). I felt complimented. I usually said "Thanks!" or some variation of "It is, ain't it?"

I can't say I've ever been asked out for a drink... but 20 years ago women didn't generally ask men out. Had I been asked though, I would have been flattered, and accepted or declined politely depending on my status at the time.

[mmhmm]

Nov 2, 2014 20:07:49 GMT -5 8 Bit WWBG said:

...:::"Those women aren't really real. The photos have been the equivalent of photo shopped.":::...

Bonny I wasn't thinking of the VS models -- yeah, I've watched the "reveal" videos showing the amount of digital magic that goes into them.  And as a reasonably competent PS user myself, I appreciate the complexity of the work.  But my mall hottie, and the woman in the 2 minute video was real enough for me and many other guys who wish we could get remotely close to that.

I bring up the store experience because while I think its easy to agree that the overt catcalling is wrong, I don't think there is only one line in the sand.  Maybe mall hottie just wanted to shop without guys fawning over her.  Even if the guys are totally polite and non-threatening -- even if they don't "harass" her -- the attention is probably still unwelcome.  There is no red/green light which indicates who wants the attention, and who doesn't.

Yes, there is a red light/green light. You just have to be willing to recognize it. If you pass a woman and say "hello" and the woman keeps walking with eyes straight ahead and no response - red light. If the woman nods and says hello in return but keeps walking without changing speeds - red light (she's being polite). If the woman smiles broadly and returns your greeting while slowing her steps and making and holding eye contact - green light. Hope that clears up any questions.

[Deleted]

Nov 2, 2014 19:07:06 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

Tenn's point of view seems to be more reasonable that the others that say she was "asking for it." Don't lump him with the others. 

I never said "she was asking for it".

[mmhmm]

Nov 2, 2014 20:23:22 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

Nov 2, 2014 11:18:25 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

Funny but not really how three guys and one woman think this is okay. No wonder this shit still happens.

Funny (but not really) how people are having trouble grasping that no one thinks harassment is o.k.... just some of us know that this (in the video) ISN'T harassment.

Yes, it is harassment. It's not at a level it can't be ignored, but it most definitely is harassment. Pestering people walking down the street is harassment. Doesn't matter the age, gender, physical attributes, etc. of the person being pestered with unwelcome vocalizations. That person is being harassed.

[Deleted]

Nov 2, 2014 20:37:44 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Nov 2, 2014 20:23:22 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

Funny (but not really) how people are having trouble grasping that no one thinks harassment is o.k.... just some of us know that this (in the video) ISN'T harassment.

I agree that most is not harassment but also, speaking only for myself, don't think a number of comments heard in the video are "okay" although they don't qualify as harassment. My concern is in devaluing actual harassment.

That's my concern as well.

[8 Bit WWBG]

...:::"Yes, there is a red light/green light. You just have to be willing to recognize it. If you pass a woman and say "hello" and the woman keeps walking with eyes straight ahead and no response - red light. If the woman nods and says hello in return but keeps walking without changing speeds - red light (she's being polite). If the woman smiles broadly and returns your greeting while slowing her steps and making and holding eye contact - green light. Hope that clears up any questions.":::...

I was referring to the red/green light that indicated whether she even wanted to be greeted BEFORE I say "hello".  And yes, if she is obviously distressed or pissed off or whatever... fine.  Its seldom THAT clear.  She was just shopping.

[Virgil Showlion]

Nov 2, 2014 19:38:52 GMT -5 ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ said:

What's this video about? Do I want to watch it?

It's either very entertaining or very disturbing if you guys have been going on about it for 15 pages.

It was only 10 pgs yesterday.

I think you should view it and give us your perspective. It's only a short 2 minutes of your time.

I'd be interested in what you think about it - from a male perspective - was it verbal assault or threats of physical harm as some claim?

Your opinion is usually from a more logical and analytical approach. I'd like to know what YOU think of the video - and which side of the fence you sit on.

I watched it.

The instances where the men followed her (the documentarian) for several minutes were creepy, although we have to acknowledge that she was behaving in an unorthodox manner, walking straight ahead and feigning disinterest rather than rebuffing her pursuers. I'm not "down" with NYC street courtship rituals, but it might well be that walking straight ahead without any kind of acknowledgement is interpreted to mean "Keep on walking with me. If I like what you have to say, or if I find your persistence in courting me endearing, maybe I'll start talking to you." If a woman genuinely isn't interested, she's expected to tell a pursuer to buzz off.

As for the cat callers, they were obviously calling out either to a) solicit her into an amorous romp, or b) compliment her appearance ...in the hope that such flattery might later bring about an amorous romp. We can probably also add c) compliment her appearance in the hopes of selling her something, since some of the callers appeared to be street merchants.

One thing we can be assured of is that the men had an expectation of success. That is, they reasonably believed that the solicitation/flattery had a better-than-marginal chance of proving fruitful. Whether this is a function of where she was walking, how she was walking, what she was wearing, or some other circumstance, I don't know. What we can deduce is that women walking the streets of New York under similar circumstances must respond to such solicitation favourably often enough not to frustrate its use. This could mean that women respond favourably 2% of the time (1 in 50) or 50% of the time (1 in 2). Regardless, if this documentarian wants a faint hope of ending cat calls in New York, she'll have to address her message to the x% of women who respond favourably to cat calls.

[ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ]

No, you didn't @richardintn. I've read through this thread too many times to count and also watched the video enough that I have it memorized and emblazoned in my brain.

I just read mmhmm 's post about the red light/green light responses. I'd say that the second one, bolded by me would probably be considered by most men or women as an amber light - approach with caution and keep a safe distance until safe to proceed. Both males & females give off signals. If those signals are ignored or rejected, it's time to move on. You see it it all phases of the animal kingdom - lions, tigers, elephants, domesticated cats & dogs, insects - when choosing a mate - yes, even humans. Creatures give off pheromones which signal if it's welcome to proceed in "the hunt" for a mate or sexual encounter or to back off and go your way.

Scroll down to the section on human behavior and pheromones:


en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pheromone

Yes, there is a red light/green light. You just have to be willing to recognize it. If you pass a woman and say "hello" and the woman keeps walking with eyes straight ahead and no response - red light. If the woman nods and says hello in return but keeps walking without changing speeds - red light (she's being polite). If the woman smiles broadly and returns your greeting while slowing her steps and making and holding eye contact - green light. Hope that clears up any questions

[Bonny]

Nov 2, 2014 20:18:33 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

Nov 2, 2014 10:37:55 GMT -5 Bonny said:

Biased? How about experienced! I've lived through it. Nearly every day until I was about 45 some a-hole needed make a comment about my body. How would YOU feel if you had to run the verbal gauntlet every day?

And I call Bullshit on the bolded part. If you had a daughter you'd want to punch him in the nose. And depending on the jerk's size and whether he was alone or with a group you would.

But here's the point. Guys don't make comments like that when a girl or woman is with a man. They only do it when she's alone. They make the calculated decision that she won't fight back. It's a sleazy power play. They win she loses. And they're right. She's not going punch every a-hole who whistles or makes some kind of comment. She'd never get to where she's going!

Biased because I very clearly wrote "comment" yet you interpreted "compliment".

"Want to punch him in the nose" / "be none-too-pleased"... basically the same thing in my book. Since there would actually be no physical action (in case that wasn't clear enough, I may WANT to... but I wouldn't... because words are just words).

I call BS on your BS that it's a sleazy power play. Just because that's how YOU and other feminists incorrectly see it as such, doesn't make it so.

I did not mis-read your post. I don't why you think I did.

It is absolutely a power play to make someone feel uncomfortable.

[Deleted]

Nov 2, 2014 23:03:12 GMT -5 Bonny said:

Nov 2, 2014 20:18:33 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

Biased because I very clearly wrote "comment" yet you interpreted "compliment".

"Want to punch him in the nose" / "be none-too-pleased"... basically the same thing in my book. Since there would actually be no physical action (in case that wasn't clear enough, I may WANT to... but I wouldn't... because words are just words).

I call BS on your BS that it's a sleazy power play. Just because that's how YOU and other feminists incorrectly see it as such, doesn't make it so.

I did not mis-read your post. I don't why you think I did.

It is absolutely a power play to make someone feel uncomfortable.

Here's what started this chain (see the quote that follows)... notice in MY portion the word "compliment" doesn't exist, yet in YOUR portion (your rebuttal) you suggest I should take it as a "compliment" (I'll bold it for you, so you can see it easier) if the same comment were to be directed at my wife or daughter.

Do you seriously NOT see how that's your flawed interpretation rising up?

Nov 1, 2014 21:48:12 GMT -5 Bonny said:

Nov 1, 2014 20:56:02 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

It's not "my" book... it's the Oxford English Dictionary.

Harassment: NOUN - Aggressive pressure or intimidation

"good morning" is not "pressure" or "intimidation" (aggressive or otherwise)
"nice dress" is not "pressure" or "intimidation" (aggressive or otherwise)
"want to get a drink?" is not "pressure" or "intimidation" (aggressive or otherwise)
heck... even "nice b**bs" or "nice a$$" is not "pressure" or "intimidation" (aggressive or otherwise)

They are all comments or opinion.

"Pressure" or "intimidation" are situations of "do {whatever} or else {bad consequence, with some form of 'will happen'}"

So you wouldn't have any response to a perfect stranger saying to your wife or/and daughter "Nice boobs or nice ass" while you were walking next to her because that's a compliment.

[Deleted]

Oh, and for the record, while it CAN be a "power play" (anything CAN be), it doesn't follow that it MUST be one. It can also be just a comment for the sake of the comment.

[ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ]

But here's the point. Guys don't make comments like that when a girl or woman is with a man. They only do it when she's alone. They make the calculated decision that she won't fight back. It's a sleazy power play. They win she loses. And they're right. She's not going punch every a-hole who whistles or makes some kind of comment. She'd never get to where she's going!

And men with an ounce of class & tact don't make those comments PERIOD. It makes no difference if the girl or woman is with a man. If the man behaves like and ass and aggressor, or threatens, that's HIS problem - and a big one. He needs to have it made known it's unacceptable. MOST men don't behave like the men in this video.

Yes, a woman is unlikely to punch every a-hole who whistles or makes an unwelcome comment - but she has every right as well, to let them know very verbally or with defined emphasis that it's not acceptable to her - ever.

As long as women cower away and say nothing, or confront the person being a creep to let them know their behavior is unacceptable,, nothing will be done to reduce these incidents.

I've had to tell someone to stay out of my space or to back off - and I did it aggressively and with determination - letting them know I wouldn't put up with it - raising my voice so others around could hear me - making them aware there might be a problem. It also catches the aggressor off-guard, making them pause and giving you more time because they don't expect it.

I used to be the "shrinking violet" when I was younger but I learned quickly how to deter unwanted advances or quell a situation quickly without any harm or misunderstanding. A friend of my DH was a Police Sergeant and he was also an instructor in personal protection and awareness - especially for women.

You are a victim if you choose to be one - or you can learn techniques to not be one.

[Alyssa]

For me, I would have chosen a better neighborhood to go walking in.  And what little she did show in the video was just ghetto, but I'm sure during her 10 hr walk that a lot of men just let her walk on by without saying a word to her.