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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2014 3:16:59 GMT -5
"Yet the largest study of the current outbreak found that in nearly 13% of "confirmed and probable" cases in Liberia, Sierra Leone, Guinea and elsewhere, those infected did not have fevers.
The study, sponsored by the World Health Organization and published online late last month by the New England Journal of Medicine, analyzed data on 3,343 confirmed and 667 probable cases of Ebola.
The finding that 87.1% of those infected exhibited fever — but 12.9% did not — illustrates the challenges confronting health authorities as they struggle to contain the epidemic."
www.dailykos.com/story/2014/10/12/1336050/-WHO-Study-Questions-Reliability-Of-Fever-As-Sole-Screening-Criteria-For-Ebola
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2014 9:03:47 GMT -5
Holy paranoia! Some of the folks in here are getting way ahead of themselves. Its been two people, who were closest to Duncan when he was his most contagious. Yes this was a screw up on the hospitals part, but this is not going to become the real life version of the movie Outbreak. The first nurse is already improving. We have the ability to contain this. Every single American that has been diagnosed has survived. I think the only reason we couldn't save Duncan was because his immune system is weaker than that of the average American, and the infection took over too quickly.
I don't understand why everyone is working themselves into such a panic already. Why don't you all at least wait to see if anyone from the flight becomes sick, then you can say the sky is falling. totally OT but I love that movie!
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Post by Value Buy on Oct 16, 2014 9:12:05 GMT -5
I've been front-line in a few battles over this kind of thing. The hospital wants to save money so the big brass come up with a brilliant idea. The nurses take one look at it and blow 100 New Jersey sized holes in it because it doesn't meet protocols and leaves them without what they need to deliver adequate care and keep themselves safe (note, I said adequate care - not spectacular). The big brass scream and holler and dig in their collective heels. It ain't easy to get some of this stuff done. You have to be determined, tireless, fearless, and mean as a snake. It can be done, but it really does take a lot out of you. The nurses may have been asking for things like this, or ... they may have asked and been refused so many times they just gave up. Who knows? From last night's news- reports coming in across the nation from nurse's describing insufficiencies in the system.
One of the most glaring to me- Reports from at last one hospital that they had no goggles, and that they weren't going to get them either. "We can't afford them" the hospital administration has explained. Really?
I can, and damn well better, afford eye protection for my people, but a hospital can't?
My gosh, wouldn't a hospital be covered by OSHA?? Where is their insurance company on these issues? I know my company would not only be visited by our insurance company, but our chemical/supply company semi annually to check to make sure we are in compliance. Especially the insurance company because they did not want the fat lawsuit bill to hit them because we did not follow OSHA regulations and hurt employees or our customers. And the chemical company was always around because if they suggested new additional chemicals it was always a sale for them, because of the suggestion of OSHA or potential lawsuits.......
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Post by zibazinski on Oct 16, 2014 9:17:06 GMT -5
DF is in an excellent hospital and one of his nurses says they are not prepared, either. I mentioned nicely getting prepared would be a really good plan. It's not like this isn't going to spread. Not even a sign in the ER stating if you have a fever, sit in an area where you can't infect others. The people who do intake at ER? No precautions taken to protect them. The security that opens the door? Nothing. Sigh. I hope to hell we are out of here today!!
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Post by Angel! on Oct 16, 2014 9:35:29 GMT -5
The sky is falling, the sky is falling!!!
www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/cleveland-area-schools-cancel-classes-over-ebola-concerns/ar-BB9nPeS
So if I am understanding this correctly, a staff member rode on the same plane as the ebola nurse. Not at the same time though, she flew on the plane the next day. Now because this staff member has been at school, the school has decided that not only should she be kept home for the 21 days (ok, I could see that), but that also need to close the schools today in order to disinfect them.
I think the hysteria has started.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2014 9:50:42 GMT -5
ok, I am officially paranoid. My grand daughter and great grandson was to fly home from Kansas City for Christmas holidays. My wife and I called her today, and said it might not be a good idea to do. She agreed. She said if a nurse will not stay home and potentially infect others, how do we stop anyone from doing it. We were surprised she agreed with us. She said she did not want to chance a one year old in the lobby of two different airports in two trips, back and forth. I am driving out there, and drive back with them the next day. Yes, we know we are probably over reacting, and we could come in contact at any restaurant or rest stop along the way, but still...............Who knows, if the Ebola is stopped here, we might change our minds...........
I guess we are paranoid too. DH was supposed to fly home for 4 days and then fly back to work on something for 3 days before returning home again (so 3 flights over 7 days). We decided to skip the return flight, even though I miss him. He will work through the weekend and take the final flight 4 days earlier, avoiding 2 flights.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2014 9:55:21 GMT -5
The sky is falling, the sky is falling!!!
www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/cleveland-area-schools-cancel-classes-over-ebola-concerns/ar-BB9nPeS
So if I am understanding this correctly, a staff member rode on the same plane as the ebola nurse. Not at the same time though, she flew on the plane the next day. Now because this staff member has been at school, the school has decided that not only should she be kept home for the 21 days (ok, I could see that), but that also need to close the schools today in order to disinfect them.
I think the hysteria has started. I read that story this morning too and was shocked at how many people thought it was reasonable. It makes no sense. I can see keeping the staff member home, but everything we know about this disease makes closing the school a crazy precaution.
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Post by Angel! on Oct 16, 2014 9:55:29 GMT -5
Or everything has been botched from the get-go so people are overcompensating... Potato-Potahto This level of overcompensating is panic mode & hysteria IMO. Odds are something ridiculous like 1 in a million that the staff member might have gotten infected. The odds that she got infected, somehow spread the virus around school a single day after exposure when she couldn't have even started showing symptoms - and that the virus is still lingering 12 hours later for some student to get - impossible. Closing school & spending money to disinfect to protect against something that couldn't possibly happen is insanity.
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Post by Rocky Mtn Saver on Oct 16, 2014 10:03:51 GMT -5
This level of overcompensating is panic mode & hysteria IMO. Odds are something ridiculous like 1 in a million that the staff member might have gotten infected. The odds that she got infected, somehow spread the virus around school a single day after exposure when she couldn't have even started showing symptoms - and that the virus is still lingering 12 hours later for some student to get - impossible. Closing school & spending money to disinfect to protect against something that couldn't possibly happen is insanity. So scrubbing down a school is a bad thing? Won't this also help fight the flu virus and the other respiratory virus (whatever it is) that is 'more dangerous' than ebola. Can't see scrubbing down a school which is generally a cesspool of germs as a bad thing. So why wasn't it scrubbed down last week?
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Post by zibazinski on Oct 16, 2014 10:04:36 GMT -5
This level of overcompensating is panic mode & hysteria IMO. Odds are something ridiculous like 1 in a million that the staff member might have gotten infected. The odds that she got infected, somehow spread the virus around school a single day after exposure when she couldn't have even started showing symptoms - and that the virus is still lingering 12 hours later for some student to get - impossible. Closing school & spending money to disinfect to protect against something that couldn't possibly happen is insanity. So scrubbing down a school is a bad thing? Won't this also help fight the flu virus and the other respiratory virus (whatever it is) that is 'more dangerous' than ebola. Can't see scrubbing down a school which is generally a cesspool of germs as a bad thing. But then you also have to scrub down the walking Petri dishes-the students. Better for the teachers to have hand sanitizer on desk and make kids use it often and in between classes, Clorox wipe down desks and other surfaces. I'm doing that here at the hospital. Handles, the bathroom, his bedside table, his guard rails on his bed.
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Post by Angel! on Oct 16, 2014 10:04:50 GMT -5
This level of overcompensating is panic mode & hysteria IMO. Odds are something ridiculous like 1 in a million that the staff member might have gotten infected. The odds that she got infected, somehow spread the virus around school a single day after exposure when she couldn't have even started showing symptoms - and that the virus is still lingering 12 hours later for some student to get - impossible. Closing school & spending money to disinfect to protect against something that couldn't possibly happen is insanity. So scrubbing down a school is a bad thing? Won't this also help fight the flu virus and the other respiratory virus (whatever it is) that is 'more dangerous' than ebola. Can't see scrubbing down a school which is generally a cesspool of germs as a bad thing. If it is such a good thing, they should do it regularly. And do it on evenings or weekends & not interfere with everyone's schedule. Closing school & doing it in the name of ebola is stupid. Don't try to turn my position into "cleaning is bad" because that isn't my position.
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Post by billisonboard on Oct 16, 2014 10:08:57 GMT -5
... Can't see scrubbing down a school which is generally a cesspool of germs as a bad thing. Do you see it as a wise use of taxpayer dollars?
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Post by Angel! on Oct 16, 2014 10:09:57 GMT -5
So why wasn't it scrubbed down last week? I don't know... perhaps the schools aren't taking the threat of flu and enterovirus D68 very seriously. Perhaps they were waiting for the trifecta? Or, more likely explaination is that whoever made this decision is a freaking moron. I will point back to how most people have no ability to judge risk.
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Post by Rocky Mtn Saver on Oct 16, 2014 10:14:46 GMT -5
So why wasn't it scrubbed down last week? I don't know... perhaps the schools aren't taking the threat of flu and enterovirus D68 very seriously. Perhaps they were waiting for the trifecta? Given the actual rise in Enterovirus D-68 in school-age children, I see that as much more of a reason to scrub down any school over the imagined threat of ebola. But it shows the difference between logic and emotion. And, by the way, how comfortable are parents and kids going to feel after 'authorities' felt the need to shut down the whole school and used the word 'ebola'? This overreaction will not reassure parents as much as it will add fear unnecessarily (or introduce it, depending on what people knew). Kids who did not know what ebola was or have any concern over it will now return to school being afraid.
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Post by Value Buy on Oct 16, 2014 10:15:59 GMT -5
I don't know... perhaps the schools aren't taking the threat of flu and enterovirus D68 very seriously. Perhaps they were waiting for the trifecta? Or, more likely explaination is that whoever made this decision is a freaking moron. I will point back to how most people have no ability to judge risk. Agreed--- especially some in the "don't worry, be happy camp" that are posting here
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Post by Angel! on Oct 16, 2014 10:19:50 GMT -5
If it is such a good thing, they should do it regularly. (1) And do it on evenings or weekends & not interfere with everyone's schedule. (2) Closing school & doing it in the name of ebola is stupid. (3) Don't try to turn my position into "cleaning is bad" because that isn't my position. (4) (1) you're right they should (2)Wouldn't cleaning on nights and weekends interfere with the cleaners schedules? (3) Yes.. how could someone think of cleaning in the name of Ebola (4) Well you seem to be against it for some reason When do you think schools get cleaned? They always get cleaned nights or weekends, like virtually every place of business in this country. Cleaning something infected makes sense. Cleaning something not infected is insanity. With that logic, lets just close every school in the country & scrub them down. The odds of ebola being in any of them is literally the same at this point. There is no logic for doing this school & not every school if we think this is a necessary step. I am against closing school over panic & hysteria. I am against people making stupid, dumbass decisions using emotion rather than actual logic. I can see you prefer the opposite for some reason
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Post by Angel! on Oct 16, 2014 10:26:10 GMT -5
Or, more likely explaination is that whoever made this decision is a freaking moron. I will point back to how most people have no ability to judge risk. Agreed--- especially some in the "don't worry, be happy camp" that are posting here You are taking "let's not panic" as "there are no problems whatsoever". Not the same things. Certain people are at risk for ebola now & they need to be watched & quarantined as necessary. That is a reasonable reaction to the current situation. The panic I am seeing in many is not a reasonable response to the risk at this time. It is an emotion based response. God, if we are going to close down everywhere that someone has been after being somewhere that someone that was diagnosed with ebola has been, how far does that go? How many others were at the airport at the time or in the 24 hours following the nurses flight? Let's shutdown the entire airport & clean it....followup on every person that walked through in that 24 hours period & quarantine them for 21 days & shut down their places of business for a day & pay to have them scrubbed down. Do you not see the insanity in this? I bet some others were teachers as well. Do you not see that every person that was at the airport (really either airport) is at as much risk as this school staff member? If we truly believe these steps are necessary, then we are freaking screwed because there are thousands of others walking around with the same level of risk.
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 16, 2014 10:28:27 GMT -5
From last night's news- reports coming in across the nation from nurse's describing insufficiencies in the system.
One of the most glaring to me- Reports from at last one hospital that they had no goggles, and that they weren't going to get them either. "We can't afford them" the hospital administration has explained. Really?
I can, and damn well better, afford eye protection for my people, but a hospital can't?
My gosh, wouldn't a hospital be covered by OSHA??
of course. both Federal AND State. however, Fed OSHA is grossly underfunded. they ONLY act these days when there is an accident. so, if you are thinking that OSHA should have prevented this, write your congressman. but they will probably ignore you. after all, they have WalMart to think about, and WalMart spends money.
Where is their insurance company on these issues?
that's a very good question. i don't know how it works in the hospital business, but stuff like pandemics is probably fairly under-reviewed in the insurance business in the same sense that meteor strikes are under-reviewed in the case of property insurance.
I know my company would not only be visited by our insurance company, but our chemical/supply company semi annually to check to make sure we are in compliance. Especially the insurance company because they did not want the fat lawsuit bill to hit them because we did not follow OSHA regulations and hurt employees or our customers.
my insurance company has their own criteria. i doubt it was even derived from OSHA, but it might have been.
And the chemical company was always around because if they suggested new additional chemicals it was always a sale for them, because of the suggestion of OSHA or potential lawsuits.......
judging from how that river spill in (KY?) went, i am guessing that regulatory agencies are either totally underfunded, or looking the other way. that is a whole other level of fixing that needs doing.
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 16, 2014 10:29:48 GMT -5
DF is in an excellent hospital and one of his nurses says they are not prepared, either. I mentioned nicely getting prepared would be a really good plan. It's not like this isn't going to spread. actually, it might be JUST LIKE that, in the case of the Dallas cell. however, it will GENERALLY not be that way, if that is what you meant.
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 16, 2014 10:33:11 GMT -5
ok, I am officially paranoid. My grand daughter and great grandson was to fly home from Kansas City for Christmas holidays. My wife and I called her today, and said it might not be a good idea to do. She agreed. She said if a nurse will not stay home and potentially infect others, how do we stop anyone from doing it. We were surprised she agreed with us. She said she did not want to chance a one year old in the lobby of two different airports in two trips, back and forth. I am driving out there, and drive back with them the next day. Yes, we know we are probably over reacting, and we could come in contact at any restaurant or rest stop along the way, but still...............Who knows, if the Ebola is stopped here, we might change our minds...........
I guess we are paranoid too. DH was supposed to fly home for 4 days and then fly back to work on something for 3 days before returning home again (so 3 flights over 7 days). We decided to skip the return flight, even though I miss him. He will work through the weekend and take the final flight 4 days earlier, avoiding 2 flights. if i had to fly to Dallas right now, i would not hesitate for a second.
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 16, 2014 10:36:18 GMT -5
Or everything has been botched from the get-go so people are overcompensating... Potato-Potahto This level of overcompensating is panic mode & hysteria IMO. Odds are something ridiculous like 1 in a million that the staff member might have gotten infected. The odds that she got infected, somehow spread the virus around school a single day after exposure when she couldn't have even started showing symptoms - and that the virus is still lingering 12 hours later for some student to get - impossible. Closing school & spending money to disinfect to protect against something that couldn't possibly happen is insanity. the odds of her dying on the way to work are about 1 in 10,000 by comparison.
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Post by Rocky Mtn Saver on Oct 16, 2014 10:43:48 GMT -5
I guess we are paranoid too. DH was supposed to fly home for 4 days and then fly back to work on something for 3 days before returning home again (so 3 flights over 7 days). We decided to skip the return flight, even though I miss him. He will work through the weekend and take the final flight 4 days earlier, avoiding 2 flights. if i had to fly to Dallas right now, i would not hesitate for a second. I have relatives living *in* Dallas who are less worried than these random people in other parts of the country. I'm planning two flights as we speak... maybe tickets will be cheaper because of the panicking crowd who won't fly?
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 16, 2014 10:44:15 GMT -5
(1) you're right they should (2)Wouldn't cleaning on nights and weekends interfere with the cleaners schedules? (3) Yes.. how could someone think of cleaning in the name of Ebola (4) Well you seem to be against it for some reason When do you think schools get cleaned? They always get cleaned nights or weekends, like virtually every place of business in this country. Cleaning something infected makes sense. Cleaning something not infected is insanity. With that logic, lets just close every school in the country & scrub them down. The odds of ebola being in any of them is literally the same at this point. There is no logic for doing this school & not every school if we think this is a necessary step. I am against closing school over panic & hysteria. I am against people making stupid, dumbass decisions using emotion rather than actual logic. I can see you prefer the opposite for some reason there is a very important answer to the question: "why not?" in the case of erring on the side of caution: i think it is very easy to see the role of human and fiscal resources in this struggle (if that is a fair term). if we devote a lot of resources and energy to things that don't matter, that leaves less that we can devote to things that DO matter. i would rather see a billion spent on basic hospital training and protocols right now than one red cent washing schools for ebola. if there were two billion available, my priorities would be exactly the same until every hospital was equipped and trained to deal with communicable viruses LIKE ebola. i think it is just basic common sense, and a good use of resources compared to scouring some elementary school in central Idaho or something.
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 16, 2014 10:45:51 GMT -5
if i had to fly to Dallas right now, i would not hesitate for a second. I have relatives living *in* Dallas who are less worried than these random people in other parts of the country. I'm planning two flights as we speak... maybe tickets will be cheaper because of the panicking crowd who won't fly? i did a lot of flying in the months following 911. the airports were nearly empty, tickets were cheap, and air travel has never been safer.
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Post by Rocky Mtn Saver on Oct 16, 2014 10:46:52 GMT -5
I have relatives living *in* Dallas who are less worried than these random people in other parts of the country. I'm planning two flights as we speak... maybe tickets will be cheaper because of the panicking crowd who won't fly? i did a lot of flying in the months following 911. the airports were nearly empty, tickets were cheap, and air travel has never been safer. I know, right now we'll have the cleanest airplanes we'll see in a very long time!
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 16, 2014 10:49:35 GMT -5
If what the nurses are claiming is true, then the hospital was absolutely negligent. I think the nurses should have probably been more pro-active in their own safety, but who knows what conversations took place in those early days. I am kind of expecting there will be lawsuits at some point. I've been front-line in a few battles over this kind of thing. The hospital wants to save money so the big brass come up with a brilliant idea. The nurses take one look at it and blow 100 New Jersey sized holes in it because it doesn't meet protocols and leaves them without what they need to deliver adequate care and keep themselves safe (note, I said adequate care - not spectacular). The big brass scream and holler and dig in their collective heels. It ain't easy to get some of this stuff done. You have to be determined, tireless, fearless, and mean as a snake. It can be done, but it really does take a lot out of you. The nurses may have been asking for things like this, or ... they may have asked and been refused so many times they just gave up. Who knows? one of the things that article mentioned is that the nurses listed "fear of reprisal" as a reason for not speaking up. in Texas, you see, having a voice means losing your job. out here, the nurses are unionized. you can speak out, and management has to go through a PROCEDURE to lay you off. not so @ Texas Presby.
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 16, 2014 10:52:55 GMT -5
I've been front-line in a few battles over this kind of thing. The hospital wants to save money so the big brass come up with a brilliant idea. The nurses take one look at it and blow 100 New Jersey sized holes in it because it doesn't meet protocols and leaves them without what they need to deliver adequate care and keep themselves safe (note, I said adequate care - not spectacular). The big brass scream and holler and dig in their collective heels. It ain't easy to get some of this stuff done. You have to be determined, tireless, fearless, and mean as a snake. It can be done, but it really does take a lot out of you. The nurses may have been asking for things like this, or ... they may have asked and been refused so many times they just gave up. Who knows? From last night's news- reports coming in across the nation from nurse's describing insufficiencies in the system.
One of the most glaring to me- Reports from at last one hospital that they had no goggles, and that they weren't going to get them either. "We can't afford them" the hospital administration has explained. Really?
I can, and damn well better, afford eye protection for my people, but a hospital can't?
my response to any hospital that says that: then you can't afford to be in business. someone should shut their asses down. they are more of a public menace than ebola.
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Post by mmhmm on Oct 16, 2014 11:03:35 GMT -5
I've been front-line in a few battles over this kind of thing. The hospital wants to save money so the big brass come up with a brilliant idea. The nurses take one look at it and blow 100 New Jersey sized holes in it because it doesn't meet protocols and leaves them without what they need to deliver adequate care and keep themselves safe (note, I said adequate care - not spectacular). The big brass scream and holler and dig in their collective heels. It ain't easy to get some of this stuff done. You have to be determined, tireless, fearless, and mean as a snake. It can be done, but it really does take a lot out of you. The nurses may have been asking for things like this, or ... they may have asked and been refused so many times they just gave up. Who knows? one of the things that article mentioned is that the nurses listed "fear of reprisal" as a reason for not speaking up. in Texas, you see, having a voice means losing your job. out here, the nurses are unionized. you can speak out, and management has to go through a PROCEDURE to lay you off. not so @ Texas Presby. Yep. Nurses aren't unionized here, either. It's really very difficult, at times, to be heard and to get necessary things done. The average staff nurse really doesn't have a prayer unless she's got a very strong manager and very strong nursing supervision across the board. Even then, it's often an uphill battle. It's all about the bottom line.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2014 11:34:20 GMT -5
if i had to fly to Dallas right now, i would not hesitate for a second. I have relatives living *in* Dallas who are less worried than these random people in other parts of the country. I'm planning two flights as we speak... maybe tickets will be cheaper because of the panicking crowd who won't fly? heck DS16 is going to England on a school trip in a month.
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Post by Rocky Mtn Saver on Oct 16, 2014 14:44:22 GMT -5
It's interesting that they don't even know if the closed schools in OH had any contact with either Ms. Vinson or her actual plane. Both paragraphs highlight the fact that this battle is not just about science or medicine, but about fighting the psychology of panic and fear even if it may have no basis.
www.nbcnews.com/storyline/ebola-virus-outbreak/ebola-fears-grip-cleveland-two-schools-shut-nurses-paid-leave-n227096
Cleveland Clinic and The MetroHealth System said employees — “mostly nurses” — who were aboard Vinson’s Friday flight from Dallas to Ohio were placed on paid leave and were being monitored but stressed there was little to no risk they had been infected. "The decision to put those nurses on paid leave really has to do with decreasing anxiety," said Dr. Jennifer Hanrahan, chair of the infection control committee at MetroHealth. "They are not at any risk, and I certainly wouldn't have sent them home to their children and their families if I thought there was any potential risk they would be infected.
A teacher who may have come into contact with Vinson was ordered to stay home and her elementary school, Cranwood, was “thoroughly cleaned with a bleach-based cleaning solution according to guidelines provided by the Center for Disease Control,” Cleveland Metropolitan School District said. Meanwhile, Solon Middle School and Parkside Elementary School — a few miles southeast of Cleveland — were ordered closed Thursday after a middle school worker “traveled home from Dallas on Frontier Airlines Tuesday on a different flight, but perhaps the same aircraft” as Vinson, officials said.
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