happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Oct 2, 2014 11:28:22 GMT -5
Mutt I can give you some perspective on this I think. My oldest sister died in April. She was not the best sister. She cut herself off from her family, never acknowledged her nephews and nieces, didn't visit our parents, even when dad was dying, and didn't go to his funeral. She was lazy and kept getting fired from jobs, until she simply decided she didn't want to work anymore, and she let the government support her since she was 50. When she died, we discovered she hoarded cats and never cleaned her house, and we were stuck having to shovel out her home with respirators and tyvek coveralls.
So on paper she does not appear to be a good person. But since she's my sister, I knew her well growing up. She was a sensitive, artist kid and our mother absolutely hated her. Verbally and physically abused her. Refused to buy her clothes or pay for school supplies. Constantly told her what a failure she was. This permanently scewed her up, mentally. She was deeply insecure and covered this up by presenting a fierce, aggressive face to her family and the outside world. She retreated to her little house, comforted by her cats and all the crap she collected throughout her lifetime, and tried to ignore the rest of the world.
I can recall how creative she was, as a child. She introduced me to rock music. She taught me how to sketch, and let me borrow her books. She made up elaborate games, and was an expert at telling spooky stories. When our mom beat us, we would hide somewhere and cry together. When I think about her now, that's the sister I remember, not the 60 year old recluse she became. And that kid was a good kid, a creative kid, who, given a better environment, might have been a fine artist or writer, and would have been a good sister or daughter.
I suspect your SIL feels the same way about her brother - she is not morning the drunk he became, but the boy she remembers.
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Chocolate Lover
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Post by Chocolate Lover on Oct 2, 2014 11:30:54 GMT -5
Post #30 is how I will feel about my FIL when he finally drinks himself to death and post #32 is what I will try to keep in mind when everyone is saying nice things about him.
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drivingaround
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Post by drivingaround on Oct 2, 2014 11:32:38 GMT -5
I want to add I understand & sympathize your anger and frustration. It really is healthy to talk on here about it. My uncle also drank himself to death and for years I was bitter over the loss of life and what I considered a waste of life. Like here are all these people fighting cancer and HIV and other incurable diseases and this person just threw his life away at 45. But I realized he had such deep demons and drinking was his only way out. It sucks and I would never call him a good person in that drunken mess of a state but prior to that he was funny and a good guy and it is okay to remember that part of him versus what he was at the end.
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giramomma
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Post by giramomma on Oct 2, 2014 11:34:07 GMT -5
So, yeah I'm mad at her and I'm mad at my BIL for drinking himself to death. I'm mad for being left out of the whole process. I'm mad that I have spent pretty much zero time with my husband since September 1st because he is always going over to his mom's house and brother's house to be with them. I'm mad because I have no outlet with anyone in real life. I'm sorry mutt.
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muttleynfelix
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Post by muttleynfelix on Oct 2, 2014 11:34:17 GMT -5
I'm sure she is. I think that is part of my problem. BIL #2 was always a handful. DH often mentions how he feels like his parents never had time for him because they were too busy trying to keep BIL #2 on the straight and narrow. They were so busying dealing with BIL #2 problems that they didn't have time for DH (who was 2 years younger). SIL was 2 years older than BIL #2 and was up on a pedestal (being the only girl, according DH). So her memories of him are different than my DH's. She also didn't spend a lot of time around him in adulthood while DH did.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Oct 2, 2014 11:36:01 GMT -5
Can you block/unfriend your SIL on facebook? It doesn't sound like she comes to visit very often, and even though your dh doesn't facebook, that doesn't mean that keeping in touch with his sister becomes your responsibility. I'm fairly certain you can block someone from seeing your page and still leave open the option of private messages, although I really think you need to step away from that too. Stay in touch with his niece, be cordial to SIL when you see her, but don't go out of your way to contact/make plans with her.
Also--I know your family isn't close by, but is there someone who could babysit the kids so that you could recharge a bit? It's tough being the one who has to hold everything together, and you don't want to unload on your dh right now. Does your church do date night, and you could drop off the kids there even though your date is just yourself?
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Oct 2, 2014 11:37:34 GMT -5
Well, Mutt, I think you've been patient enough. Tell your husband to get his ass home where it belongs and the BS grief is over now. He's got a wife and kids. Put on big boy pants and man up.
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cktc
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Post by cktc on Oct 2, 2014 11:40:17 GMT -5
I like to believe in an inherent goodness in humanity. Not that everyone follows it, or follows it to a T, but that the majority of people want to be good, even if they aren't quite sure how. I sleep better at night believing those who intentionally and remorselessly set out to harm others are in the minority.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Oct 2, 2014 11:48:14 GMT -5
I think most people try to be good, but there is a lot of mental health issues and drug/alcohol issues that get in the way from them being the kind of person they want to be.
Then there are the psychopaths among us who don't understand the concept of what is good or bad and simply do what pleases them (which is often bad for the rest of us). But true psychopaths are rare.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Oct 2, 2014 11:49:56 GMT -5
Well, Mutt, I think you've been patient enough. Tell your husband to get his ass home where it belongs and the BS grief is over now. He's got a wife and kids. Put on big boy pants and man up. Yes, 1 month is far too long to grieve the loss of a sibling and help your mother after the death of her son. How dare he have feelings for anyone outside of his immediate family. I'd much rather be married to someone who couldn't give a shit about his mother/family.
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muttleynfelix
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Post by muttleynfelix on Oct 2, 2014 11:50:09 GMT -5
Zib - He's been going over to his mom's to make sure she is ok. DH is home all day with the kids. He's good with them. He's just trying to take care of his mom as well. He's had nights where he has stayed home. And like last night he took the kids over to his mom's after supper so I could have a break of an 1.5. But we've just been dividing and conquering with the kids and have had just no time together or the even limited time with the 4 of us. Our friends from church who like to babysit can't do it because he had knee surgery last week. We have our 9th wedding anniversary coming up next week. I just can't bring myself to ask MIL to watch the kids. We had talked about going zip-lining, but now I don't know.
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CarolinaKat
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Post by CarolinaKat on Oct 2, 2014 12:44:36 GMT -5
I have the same problem you're having. I like the truth, good, bad or ugly, I prefer the truth to a bunch of bs. Well I call it bs. Others see it as being nice or loving or something and think I am way too harsh. I've come to peace with it and mostly have no problem just letting it go now. In your SIL's fantasy she was close to her brother. I guess it gets her through the day to see the world that way. Personally I prefer to actually be close to people. Whatever. I don't live in their skin and don't have to. I like my way and my life better and that is really all that matters. I see things a lot the same way. I never have and never will understand the reasoning behind the instant canonizing of the dead. If someone was a total bastard in life, assuming room temperature just makes him a dead bastard to me.
I understand mourning the loss of what might have been, or what once was, if this person had at one time been a better person, played a better role. Mourning a memory, or a loss of a future that will never happen. The thing is, we're then mourning for US, not the dead. A nice person to me? Someone who plays fair, has an open mind, gives back, treats people of ALL walks of life with respect and even handedness, and tries to leave the world a little better than it was when they assume room temperature. Sometimes, there are some people who no one has anything positive to say at their funeral. Not their kids, not their grandkids, not their siblings. Even the preacher tip-toed around the subject and stuck to bible verses and psalms. It's the strangest furneral I've ever been to. Although, knowing the deceased, I wasn't all that surprised.
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CarolinaKat
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Post by CarolinaKat on Oct 2, 2014 12:52:55 GMT -5
Sometimes, there are some people who no one has anything positive to say at their funeral. Not their kids, not their grandkids, not their siblings. Even the preacher tip-toed around the subject and stuck to bible verses and psalms. It's the strangest furneral I've ever been to. Although, knowing the deceased, I wasn't all that surprised. Then you have those who never have a good word to say ABOUT anyone when they are alive. I'm kind of torn who I'd rather hang with. I think the person's lack of ability to say anything good about anyone while she was alive contributed directly to the inability of anyone to say anything good about her life after her death.
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greeniis10
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Post by greeniis10 on Oct 2, 2014 13:59:19 GMT -5
Post #30 is how I will feel about my FIL when he finally drinks himself to death and post #32 is what I will try to keep in mind when everyone is saying nice things about him. Ditto, except it will be my BIL. It's so frustrating to watch him kill himself with alcohol and at the same time I know what a nightmare it's going to be if/when he dies because everyone seems to worship the ground he walks on most of the time. Yes, patience is wearing thin because he doesn't attend ANY family events that are out of town (which is the vast majority of them) because he can't drive (has a car and license, but starts drinking the minute he gets up and is unable to drive himself). He still manages to hold a job because he carpools, but he's in a lot of debt now, too. Anyway, when mutt first posted about her BIL I could really relate because we're watching the same thing unfold. Glad you can vent here. I sincerely hope things improve soon for you and your DH.
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NastyWoman
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Post by NastyWoman on Oct 2, 2014 14:10:19 GMT -5
Zib - He's been going over to his mom's to make sure she is ok. DH is home all day with the kids. He's good with them. He's just trying to take care of his mom as well. He's had nights where he has stayed home. And like last night he took the kids over to his mom's after supper so I could have a break of an 1.5. But we've just been dividing and conquering with the kids and have had just no time together or the even limited time with the 4 of us. Our friends from church who like to babysit can't do it because he had knee surgery last week. We have our 9th wedding anniversary coming up next week. I just can't bring myself to ask MIL to watch the kids. We had talked about going zip-lining, but now I don't know. Mutt, through the years (I'm 62 for a few more weeks) there were many events that happened at the "wrong" time and I learned to work around them. Why don't you talk to DH about this and propose something like " this is not a good time but lets celebrate 9years, 9weeks, and 9 days instead" or whatever strikes your fancy. It would give DH a little extra time to heal and by then either MIL or your church friends could be available to babysit. And by setting a very specific day for your celebration it is not skipped or forgotten but it will be "your" day as a couple. In the mean time for you
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Oct 2, 2014 14:20:28 GMT -5
Sorry, Mutt, but you have needs, too. It can't be all about one person. It's great he's home with the kids but you need love and attention, too. You need to talk to him. Your life is in an upheaval and needs some tending to as well
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CarolinaKat
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Post by CarolinaKat on Oct 2, 2014 14:24:55 GMT -5
Zib - He's been going over to his mom's to make sure she is ok. DH is home all day with the kids. He's good with them. He's just trying to take care of his mom as well. He's had nights where he has stayed home. And like last night he took the kids over to his mom's after supper so I could have a break of an 1.5. But we've just been dividing and conquering with the kids and have had just no time together or the even limited time with the 4 of us. Our friends from church who like to babysit can't do it because he had knee surgery last week. We have our 9th wedding anniversary coming up next week. I just can't bring myself to ask MIL to watch the kids. We had talked about going zip-lining, but now I don't know. Mutt, through the years (I'm 62 for a few more weeks) there were many events that happened at the "wrong" time and I learned to work around them. Why don't you talk to DH about this and propose something like " this is not a good time but lets celebrate 9years, 9weeks, and 9 days instead" or whatever strikes your fancy. It would give DH a little extra time to heal and by then either MIL or your church friends could be available to babysit. And by setting a very specific day for your celebration it is not skipped or forgotten but it will be "your" day as a couple. In the mean time for you That's a cute idea
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Oct 2, 2014 14:26:49 GMT -5
Oh Mutt I am sure my mom could relate to how you are feeling. She bent over backwards helping my dad/grandmother research hospice care, medicare and bazillions of other things. Then since they got back from vacation on Labor Day my dad spent 99% of his time at the hospital sitting next to my grandfather.
Then when he passed he's been spending 99% of his time out in Treynor helping my grandmother take care of everything and basically enabling her to stay out there rather than contemplate moving where the rest of the family is. When he is home she is calling constantly.
My mom kept her mouth shut during the entire funeral planning fiasco and didn't say anything about my dad having to shuffle dozens of old people who don't know Papillion back and forth for three days.
She's been holding down the house and taking care of their last dog that should have died a long time ago. On top of that she's dealing with my brother and his drama.
She's burnt out. Yes it's my dad's dad who died but she needs space to process everything that happened as well and my parents really need time together as a couple.
So they are escaping to Colorado this weekend. I know that's not feasible with two small kids but would a church member be willing to watch the kids for a couple hours so you two can go to dinner or something?
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muttleynfelix
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Post by muttleynfelix on Oct 2, 2014 14:30:43 GMT -5
zib - While I appreciate your concern, it really is not all about my DH. We're working through a family tragedy and we'll get there. Things won't always be smooth. And he did think of me when he took the kids over to his mom's last night and gave me some time to myself. I'll get my love and attention. Right now we just need to make sure his mom is ok and if he needs to spend time with her and his brother, that is ok too. I'm the in-law. My job is to allow my husband the space and time he needs to get through this and I'm ok with him taking care of his mom. Remember she found BIL #2 unresponsive. She had to call 911, she had to perform CPR until they got there. This is more than just losing a child for her, this is her losing her son in pretty traumatic fashion and she's not exactly a spring chicken.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Oct 2, 2014 14:39:35 GMT -5
Oh, okay. I thought you felt stressed about all that was put on you by someone who wasnt even that great of a person. My mistake. If you're okay with what's happening, I sure am.
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muttleynfelix
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Post by muttleynfelix on Oct 2, 2014 14:53:45 GMT -5
I can feel stressed and still be ok with how things are happening. Yes, eventually, we need some family time and some couple time. I could use it, but if my MIL and BIL #1 need some more of DH's time, that is ok too.
I am going on a trip with just DD in a couple weeks. DH and DS are going to stay home while we go visit my best friend from college and her DD (who is 1). So, I do have something fun planned in the works. My parents will be visiting in November and DH and I will hopefully get away for a date then.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2014 15:38:10 GMT -5
A good person in part, is- One who is able to control their bad behavior in the presence of others. (This includes me.)These same bad behaving people, in our personal lives especially, can also learn to become more considerate of their family and friends over time.
(But first things first which must be recognized by those who offend and the desire to be helped.) Why the consistent bad behavior?
Most of what we consider bad behavior in others can be symptoms of unresolved inner turmoil, dating years and years back before the bad behavior began showing up.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Oct 2, 2014 16:24:31 GMT -5
It's not really possible to give a hard and fast "definition" like there's some hard and fast threshold when you go from "not a good person" to a "good person."
Unfortunately, life is a lot more grey than that. A person can do bad things for good reasons, or good things for bad reasons. A otherwise good person can do bad things, and everyone makes mistakes.
I don't know that life is all that grey. I think there could be some categorically "bad" behaviors. Clearly things like abuse and dysfunction come to mind. There is a difference between unintentionally harming someone and intentionally, repeatedly harming someone and not stopping. I think, we could all agree that repeatedly harming someone and not caring about the effects of that is a "bad" behavior. Everyone makes mistakes. Sure, but not all mistakes are the same. My hurting my husbands feelings on accident is a little different that his withholding his addiction from me so that I could not make an informed decision about who I was going to marry. My definition of being a "good" person includes the desire and actually fixing flaws to make oneself a better person. By that definition, being a good person is the absence of being a bad person. I'm not sure it's the same.
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Peace Of Mind
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[font color="#8f2520"]~ Drinks Well With Others ~[/font]
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Post by Peace Of Mind on Oct 2, 2014 16:26:53 GMT -5
Sorry you are feeling frustrated, Mutt but I totally get it. I've come to the conclusion that even bastards, bitches and assholes have good points but IMO people say nice things for the sake of those that loved these people. It's not really about the person that died but the people they left behind. I know first hand how things change after one dies. Mom and I were very close until about my early 30's. Either I just didn't notice when I was younger or she really became manipulative, petty, jealous, selfish, etc. She started dating this weirdo who was 20 years younger who had substance abuse issues (all her men did) and it really changed her personality and it got so bad that in my mid 40's I had to stop being around her in any way until I just had to stop communicating with her at all. It was just healthier for me and it kept me from being mean back at her. I have a lot of tolerance for mean and unfair behavior from people until I don't. Then shit gets real and I would have laid her out and told her things about herself she would not want to hear. Then she got cancer and died. She told my brothers that she was beating it but she wasn't. Every single bit of anger left me 100%. ALL of it. All I could remember was the good parts of her and the love I had for her when she died. Talking to people at the funeral was easy because it's easy to discuss the good parts of a person. The siblings and spouses knew the truth so we could discuss other things privately but in public it's just rude and tacky to dishonor the deceased like that in a public way. And I thank God that my last words with her were loving and kind and not ugly in any way and that confirmed my decision to walk away before it got nasty. Living with that would have been hard if I allowed things to escalate and get out of control had I allowed it to continue. I'm also sorry for the loss of your BIL. It's even harder when they aren't a nice person.
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kittensaver
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Post by kittensaver on Oct 2, 2014 16:34:51 GMT -5
I agree 100% with Peace Of Mind. Regrets and unresolved issues make grieving more complicated. And sometimes people (like your SIL) go to some pretty convoluted places in an attempt to deflect, ignore or rationalize away their complicated feelings.
OP, I'm sorry your family is going through this right now. FWIW, I get it. Big hugs to you. Hang in there.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Oct 2, 2014 19:16:26 GMT -5
You may have heard the story that is told of the great Hasidic Rav Zusia who was dying and all his students were gathered around him, praying and crying. Then Zusia himself began to cry and one of his students said, "Rav Zusia, why are you crying? You have lived a righteous life, you have raised up students, and you will be received into the world to come." Rav Zusia answered his students, "I am crying because now I understand that, if God will ask me: Zusia, why weren't you like Moses? I'll have a ready answer - Lord, you didn't give me the potential you gave to Moses. If the Almighty will ask me: Zusia, why weren't you like Maimonides? I will also have a ready answer - Lord, you neither gave me the gifts nor did you place me in a position similar to Maimonides. But the Master of the Universe will not ask me these questions. He will ask: Zusia, why weren't you like Zusia? Why didn't you fulfill the task that only Zusia could have fulfilled? It is of this question that I am in dread - and if I will be asked it, I shall have no proper response!" www.schechter.edu/facultyForum.aspx?ID=18 As a "not good person", as a person who has accepted that he is a "not good person", as a person who struggles daily in the attempt to be a "good person" yet falls short repeatedly, I find many of comments here familiar. Fortunately for me, I have immediate family members with an understanding of who I am. Unlike the good and righteous man in the story above, I do believe I have proper response.
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