mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Oct 12, 2014 17:04:49 GMT -5
mmhmm, can you tell me if US Ebola treatment protocols include dousing the exterior of PPE with bleach solution prior to removing it? I'm seeing that step described in stories from West Africa but not in stories from the US and I'm straining to imagine US hospitals having the physical setup to include that step. I'd also like to know how to flag or reference someone in a post, but that's a pretty minor concern. I don't know if that's protocol for Ebola treatment, or not, haapai. Most hospitals do use a bleach solution for cleaning where applicable, but I don't know what the protocols are in someplace like the Atlanta facility or the Nebraska facility. I've been out of the hospital environment for over a year. In our little ICU, I think we could have set up something that would have allowed such a dousing without too much difficulty in the anteroom to our isolation room. If you want to tag someone in a post, just type an @ followed by that person's username. You can get the username by hovering over the person's display name on their mini-profile with your mouse.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Oct 12, 2014 17:10:12 GMT -5
I don't see any problem with having questions and concerns, either. I do see a problem with fear mongering; especially, by those who have never worked with infectious disease and actually know very little about it - almost as little as they know about protocols and procedures for working in an environment where infectious disease is present. Believe me, I'm so worried about this that if I weren't 72 years old and didn't have my mother to care for here, I'd be in West Africa right now, not sitting here wringing my hands and crying about what might be. That's just not my style, and it doesn't go along with what I've experienced. I don't have AIDS. I don't have Hepatitis Type A, B, C or D. I don't have SARS, or MRSA, or MERS, or TB. I've treated every darned one of those at one time or another. No, I'm not going to fret about what might happen if ... And this is where you make the assumption I (or anyone) disagreeing with you don't have knowledge of the protocols. What is the common denominator of all protocols? Humans. So what about TB nurse? How did the protocols work in her case? I think perhaps you may be a little removed from on the front line health care. How concerned where you with protocols and rules whe you had worked your 2nd or 3rd double in a row? How about having your mother treated by the same staff that just treated the ebola patient or by the TB nurse? Are you willing to risk it when it's hits closer to home? I wouldn't work two or three doubles in a row. It's not safe and I'd refuse to do so. I was always highly concerned with protocols and made sure I met every requirement. I had loved ones at home. In the case of highly infectious diseases, it was our protocol to have one nurse assigned to that patient. That nurse did not treat other patients. All supplies were kept in the anteroom to the isolation room. Nothing came out until it was properly handled, including the nurse. What do you mean am I willing to risk it when it "hits closer to home?" I risked it for many years and I was home! You can't get any closer to home than coming from the hospital, which is your workplace, to your home where your loved ones are. You're damned right I followed protocols. Have I seen nurses break them? Yep, and they got more than just a piece of my mind! Now, just what knowledge do you have of such protocols?
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Oct 12, 2014 17:33:10 GMT -5
I wouldn't work two or three doubles in a row. It's not safe and I'd refuse to do so. I was always highly concerned with protocols and made sure I met every requirement. I had loved ones at home. In the case of highly infectious diseases, it was our protocol to have one nurse assigned to that patient. That nurse did not treat other patients. All supplies were kept in the anteroom to the isolation room. Nothing came out until it was properly handled, including the nurse. What do you mean am I willing to risk it when it "hits closer to home?" I risked it for many years and I was home! You can't get any closer to home than coming from the hospital, which is your workplace, to your home where your loved ones are. You're damned right I followed protocols. Have I seen nurses break them? Yep, and they got more than just a piece of my mind! Now, just what knowledge do you have of such protocols? So you were concerned, but fully admit watching others not be, that is a problem. Good for you speaking up, but I'm guessing at the end of the day not exactly effective in changing practice and behavior. Since you asked what my knowledge consists of... MrSroo has been an EMT/Paramedic for 20 years and on and off worked 8+years as a tech in level 1 trauma centers, and 4 years hazmat team. You know what his "Ebola Preparedness" consisted of? A pamphlet left on the station breakfast table. All of our friends are frontline healthcare workers and they laugh at the preparations and plans for major outbreaks.. Their comments. "We're screwed". In that case, you have a problem in your area that needs to be dealt with. Do something about it. Yes, I've seen nurses break protocol. Usually, they were new, and young. They learned pretty darned quick it wasn't acceptable. I didn't say I watched others "not be", did I? I said I saw it and ... wait for it ... I DID SOMETHING ABOUT IT. You'd be surprised how fast you see practice and behavior change if you make it a point to see practice and behavior change. As long as you're willing to just let it pass because you don't want to be bother, or don't have time, or would rather complain than act, it'll probably turn out just the way you're guessing. In my experience, it did not. For the record, I never saw it happen in our ICU with a patient in isolation. Not One Time.
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EVT1
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Post by EVT1 on Oct 12, 2014 18:09:22 GMT -5
Well considering he's worked in 3 hospitals in two different states as well as 4 different fire departments, again in a couple of different states, I feel confident that this isn't localized. I am in no way impugning you as a a healthcare worker or your practices, but as you readily admit, stating that people don't always follow plans, procedures and protocols. As I've been reading this to MrSroo his comment was "ICU is not the ER" All in the last month?
I honestly don't believe Ebola preparedness was left to either a pamphlet or bulletin board note. At least not recently.
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EVT1
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Post by EVT1 on Oct 12, 2014 18:13:53 GMT -5
Look at the bright side- if it were to spread we would have a cure for it in short order. No money in curing broke people in third world countries. Not going to get $1000 a pill out of people that make pennies a day.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 13, 2014 10:30:37 GMT -5
Since I spent most of my career with these same protocols, I'm pretty comfortable with them. Yes, there will be errors because people ARE human and accidents happen no matter how many precautions you take. Because this particular virus is so difficult to get, I'm not all that concerned about them. Furthermore, those that happen under these circumstances are the least likely to find themselves fatally ill. It will be caught early enough to mitigate that possibility in the vast majority of cases. If you choose to worry about it, however, that's up to you. Or I could stick my head in the sand and say everything is going to be alright...truthfully it's not even the fact that it's ebola. Insert any potential pandemic disease name in this discussion and my opinion remains the same. When 'people' get cocky on their ability to contain Mother Nature I will bet on mother nature every time. there is a pretty wide margin between sticking one's head in the sand and running around screaming hysterically about the Black Death. the protocol will have to start all over. people that this healthcare worker came into contact with AFTER EXHIBITING SYMPTOMS will have to be isolated, and we will wait another(21) days. hopefully this will be all over by Thanksgiving. if not, we will be on to Round Three. i don't see anyone here as being an ostrich, Sroo. we simply don't view Ebola as an existential threat to the US the way that you and some others do.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 13, 2014 10:31:47 GMT -5
Well considering he's worked in 3 hospitals in two different states as well as 4 different fire departments, again in a couple of different states, I feel confident that this isn't localized. I am in no way impugning you as a a healthcare worker or your practices, but as you readily admit, stating that people don't always follow plans, procedures and protocols. As I've been reading this to MrSroo his comment was "ICU is not the ER" this person is only contagious when showing symptoms. you know that, right?
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Oct 13, 2014 10:44:07 GMT -5
All in the last month?
I honestly don't believe Ebola preparedness was left to either a pamphlet or bulletin board note. At least not recently.
Why would I lie about this? Yes the extra training for his fire department was several pamphlets left on the table. Yes this happened 2 weeks ago, there has been nothing from the state, county, or federal health systems. This is past week the IAFF put out their own information to it's members. In that case, as I said before, DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT!
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Oct 13, 2014 10:59:45 GMT -5
In that case, as I said before, DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT! Well, now I'm confused mmhmm. You have repeatedly said we are ready and you have full faith and confidence in our plans and protocols, but now you are saying that it's up to the individual hospitals, entities, and health care workers to figure it out for themselves and ask what those plans and protocols are?? You can't have it both ways, either we are ready or we are not. LOL! I didn't say anything of the sort, Sroo. You're carrying on about what your DH hasn't received in the way of training. That's an anecdotal complaint not a global complaint. My comment addresses your anecdotal complaint. If you don't like what's going on ... do something about it. Our folks feel they're being well prepared to deal with the situation should they face it. If yours don't, they've got work to do. They need to do it. I will say this: If a nurse can't figure out what she's going to need to do to avoid this virus, the best thing to do might be to take a leave of absence and go back to school. Contact isolation protocols aren't all that mysterious and they apply to any infection spread through contact with body fluids. Ebola isn't some unique entity. It's a virus. It's spread through contact with the body fluids of an infected individual. It's freaking people out because it's deadly. So is AIDS, and it freaked people out in the same way when first it reared its ugly head. I'd one heck of a lot rather deal with this than with something that's airborne!
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Oct 13, 2014 11:03:12 GMT -5
*groan* I'm out of this one. Those who wish to walk in fear because of Ebola are welcome to do so. I prefer to continue to live my life and rely on my good, common sense - and my knowledge.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Oct 13, 2014 11:31:48 GMT -5
I will say this: If a nurse can't figure out what she's going to need to do to avoid this virus, the best thing to do might be to take a leave of absence and go back to school. Contact isolation protocols aren't all that mysterious and they apply to any infection spread through contact with body fluids. You mean like the gloves, gown, and face shield that she was wearing? So you are blaming the nurse in this situation? If she truly botched it (which I don't think she did) then who is really at fault. Is it the CDC for improper guidelines, is it her training entity which released such an unprepared healthcare worker out in the wild? Was it the state board who licensed her? Mmhmm, you seem to be missing my point. If one department didn't get extra training or information then others haven't as well since it is a county paramedic program. If one county is not doing it then there are others that aren't. Yes it's anecdotal, but it's also a symptom of a larger problem. But which part aren't you saying... that we aren't prepared or that we are? Because now I'm getting confused as to what you are saying. And once again, I will state for everyone. I'm not running through the streets, I haven't moved out to the middle of nowhere, but I also don't think it's a bad thing to question the preparedness or the reaction to this 'event'. I think it was and is stupid and irresponsible to allow people who are at risk to expose others in the US. I think the old adage of an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure is appropriate here. 6 months ago what was the chance of a nurse in a US hospital contracting Ebola? Now what is it? We have introduced a disease previously unknown in human form to the US. The only good thing I see coming from this is that it's shown what bafoons the CDC and state health departments really are. What I'm saying is very simple, Sroo. If you don't think things are being handled properly, DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. Crying about it on the internet is not accomplishing anything. That's what I'm saying. What did the nurse do wrong? I haven't a clue and neither do you. I have no way of knowing what equipment she was using and neither do you. I don't know if she was using it correctly and neither do you (although, you wish to make an assumption). Something went wrong. That, we do know because she's infected. Did she tear a glove? Did she forget to remove protective materials properly? Was she double-checked by someone else before she entered the patient's room to render care to ensure there were no gaps in protection? Nitrile gloves? Double gloved? Properly fitted shield worn correctly? I have no flipping idea. I just know something went wrong and that's all you know. At this point, that's all anyone knows. I'm not willing to shut people who need care out of this country. Some of those folks are our own. They went to West Africa to aid the sick. Now, we're to lock them out? Not in my world. YWMV.
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Post by billisonboard on Oct 13, 2014 11:59:37 GMT -5
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Oct 13, 2014 12:08:15 GMT -5
No, @sroo4, it doesn't prove that, at all. Accidents happen. Mistakes are made. There is no such thing as absolute, fool-proof. It just isn't going to be, anywhere, ever. If that's what you're looking for, you're heading for a huge disappointment.
Raising awareness on this message board isn't doing a damned thing for your local problem, Sroo. What have you done about that? To whom have you spoken? To whom has your DH spoken? Are you taking an active part in making sure the needs of your community are being met? The president and the CDC can't camp on your doorstep to make sure things are being done correctly. That's a community matter and must remain so. Then, again, you can choose to do nothing because you "shouldn't have to".
I won't honor that with a comment, except to ask: What if one of those selfless people was your son, or daughter?
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Oct 13, 2014 12:26:27 GMT -5
I have stayed out of this conversation, just been reading the posts here but have a question to ask , especially of any medical personnel who first might be working in institutions dedicated to health care of others..{ Hospitals, labs..etc}
I would expect by now these institutions should have spent much time..even giving a time out till all information on procedures have been given to all their personnel..anyone and everyone ..as to how they are going to handle all conditions dedicated to this possible potential epidemic..and those conditions are now in effect and that is on all type of units..small curbside clinics..the large known institutions..major and minor hospitals..all personnel from the custodial staff to the head surgeon and administer and all in between.., cafeteria worker, ambulance driver and assistant..police personnel who are stationed in these institutions..Hopefully you get what I am asking and can anyone tell me if that has happened or is it still in the talking stage..?
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Oct 13, 2014 12:37:25 GMT -5
Hell, @sroo4, I did it myself! My daughter is a nurse! My granddaughter is a nurse. Why? Because it's fulfilling. It's an opportunity to give something to those in need, Sroo. It matters. If either of them contracted the virus, I'd be at their bedside. Knowing both of them, it would have to be an unusual situation - like an accidental tear in a glove - for that to happen. They're aware of what they need to do and they stay aware. I know them both well enough to know they'd be right there to help those stricken. Again, YMMV - and, you didn't answer my question. What if it was your son, or daughter, Sroo.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Oct 13, 2014 12:52:24 GMT -5
If those people were so selfless I would wonder why they would want to come back and put more people at risk? Everyone wants to live. Even selfless humans, martyrs and saints want/wanted to live.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Oct 13, 2014 13:15:34 GMT -5
Everyone wants to live. Even selfless humans, martyrs and saints want/wanted to live. So it's ok for those people to have self-preservation, but the rest of shouldn't and we're panic mongers if want to protect ourselves. Uhbboy The three who were brought back were brought back by our government I believe. They didn't just hop on a plane and use their AMEX card and charge the airfare. They were transported to one of 4 hospitals specifically geared to treating Ebola and other types of contagious diseases. The guy in Dallas was not at a hospital designed to treat Ebola.
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 13, 2014 13:59:04 GMT -5
there is a pretty wide margin between sticking one's head in the sand and running around screaming hysterically about the Black Death.the protocol will have to start all over. people that this healthcare worker came into contact with AFTER EXHIBITING SYMPTOMS will have to be isolated, and we will wait another(21) days. hopefully this will be all over by Thanksgiving. if not, we will be on to Round Three. i don't see anyone here as being an ostrich, Sroo. we simply don't view Ebola as an existential threat to the US the way that you and some others do. So showing concern is running around screaming hysterically? only if NOT doing so is "sticking ones head in the sand". get it?
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 13, 2014 14:02:59 GMT -5
I don't even know what you are trying to say in your second paragraph... what does that have to do with my comment at all? this thread is not entirely about your comments, Sroo. just fyi.I do see people being ostrich like, i don't. at all. i see two groups of people. one is a group of people who is assessing the threat for what it is: a fairly non-contagious disease is spreading in a developed nation with known protocols for combating it. the other is a group that seems to think this is polio ala 1920.maybe lemming like is more to your liking? Tra la la la we have protocols... they're great... they will stop this... tell that to the nurse in Dallas. I'm sure she's loving all those protocols and plans now she didn't follow them. if she had, she would not be sick. it is sad when some people have to learn the hard way, but that's life.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Oct 13, 2014 16:18:11 GMT -5
I don't even know what you are trying to say in your second paragraph... what does that have to do with my comment at all? this thread is not entirely about your comments, Sroo. just fyi.I do see people being ostrich like, i don't. at all. i see two groups of people. one is a group of people who is assessing the threat for what it is: a fairly non-contagious disease is spreading in a developed nation with known protocols for combating it. the other is a group that seems to think this is polio ala 1920.maybe lemming like is more to your liking? Tra la la la we have protocols... they're great... they will stop this... tell that to the nurse in Dallas. I'm sure she's loving all those protocols and plans now she didn't follow them. if she had, she would not be sick. it is sad when some people have to learn the hard way, but that's life. To be fair, this could have been an accidental contamination - like a torn glove in the presence of an open scratch on the hand. There are accidents that can cause problems. Usually, though, it's some unthinking action that breaks protocol. In most cases, nothing happens. Then, there are cases like this one. As I said in an earlier post, there are no absolute guarantees no matter what we might wish and no matter how careful we try to be.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Oct 13, 2014 16:21:21 GMT -5
If it were my son or daughter. Before they left I would have a real serious talk with them and ask them the following questions: You know there's a high likelihood of contracting the disease, right? What do you think will happen if you do get sick? Would you be okay with bringing it back to the US? Would you be okay exposing those to it that under normal circumstances wouldn't be exposed? Are you ok with the risk to their family who haven't made a choice to work with sick people? Are you prepared to die to help other people? For the record I would ask my child these questions for any risky thing they contemplated doing. Going to a war torn country... Are you sure about this? How would you feel if a soldier was killed trying to rescue you? How about a person that drives out into an obviously flooded road and needs rescued? Hey did you think about that cop or fireman that has to risk themselves to save you? I guess I'm coming at this from a totally different perspective. I feel that the people who go over there to treat people are good people, no doubt. However, they are putting others at risk to do it. That is what I don't agree with. Go ahead and go, do everything you can. Just don't put me or my loved ones at risk by doing it. Yep, I'm selfish. And when it comes to protecting me and my own I will chose them over a random stranger every day of the week and twice on Sunday. But I would also wish my loved ones luck if they felt they needed go and help. What I wouldn't do is agree with them bringing it back here. The biggest difference is that the people who create the risk, the healthcare workers, have made a choice that the risk is acceptable for them. Those they expose don't necessarily get that same choice. Thanks for the answer. While you and I could never be on anywhere close to the same page, I appreciate your candor.
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Rocky Mtn Saver
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Post by Rocky Mtn Saver on Oct 13, 2014 17:16:44 GMT -5
The best way to protect ourselves is to get the outbreak stopped where it's coming from. No matter what the other 'solutions' people want to do to try to protect themselves in a globally-connected world, nothing will ever work 100% until the outbreak is stopped at its root location.
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Rocky Mtn Saver
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Post by Rocky Mtn Saver on Oct 13, 2014 17:18:40 GMT -5
she didn't follow them. if she had, she would not be sick. it is sad when some people have to learn the hard way, but that's life. To be fair, this could have been an accidental contamination - like a torn glove in the presence of an open scratch on the hand. There are accidents that can cause problems. Usually, though, it's some unthinking action that breaks protocol. In most cases, nothing happens. Then, there are cases like this one. As I said in an earlier post, there are no absolute guarantees no matter what we might wish and no matter how careful we try to be. This article was helpful to me in understanding the difficulties faced by healthcare workers in situations like this, which are complex and require a lot of regular training on (and not in the thick of treatment!): www.vox.com/2014/10/13/6968775/ebola-nurse-united-states-texas-directions-protocol-breach
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Post by b2r on Oct 13, 2014 22:30:31 GMT -5
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 13, 2014 23:50:01 GMT -5
not prepared to laugh about this yet. thanks all the same.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 13, 2014 23:53:31 GMT -5
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haapai
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Post by haapai on Oct 15, 2014 5:44:26 GMT -5
There's been a second nosocomial Ebola case in Dallas. The new case is only described as a male health care worker who treated Mr. Duncan after the second admission on the 28th. The admission of Mr. Duncan on the 28th was pretty screwed up according to nurses who were there. No protocols appear to have been in place. He was not immediately isolated. Nurses were working with comically substandard protective gear. It's a lot of damning news. The only remotely encouraging thing that I can come up with is that the nosocomial infections appear to be occurring among health care workers who treated Mr. Duncan after he was admitted and there haven't been any infections reported yet among family members, ambulance personnel, persons who examined Mr. Duncan on the 25th, or persons that initially treated him on the 28th. There may be a huge ramp up in infectiousness that puts people who are treating diagnosed Ebola patients at higher risk than those who are dealing with the patient before diagnosis has been made. It's obscene that we're seeing infections among health care workers who are only treating the patient after diagnosis has been made. Most of them could be prevented by better infection prevention protocols and smarter decisions regarding what care to give and how it should be provided. ETA 11:30 AM EDT. The link embedded in this post has been edited extensively since my original post. The patient has now been identified as a female nurse and all claims of when the patient was treated have disappeared.
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Post by Miss Tequila on Oct 15, 2014 7:37:55 GMT -5
There's been a second nosocomial Ebola case in Dallas. The new case is only described as a male health care worker who treated Mr. Duncan after the second admission on the 28th. The admission of Mr. Duncan on the 28th was pretty screwed up according to nurses who were there. No protocols appear to have been in place. He was not immediately isolated. Nurses were working with comically substandard protective gear. It's a lot of damning news. The only remotely encouraging thing that I can come up with is that the nosocomial infections appear to be occurring among health care workers who treated Mr. Duncan after he was admitted and there haven't been any infections reported yet among family members, ambulance personnel, persons who examined Mr. Duncan on the 25th, or persons that initially treated him on the 28th. There may be a huge ramp up in infectiousness that puts people who are treating diagnosed Ebola patients at higher risk than those who are dealing with the patient before diagnosis has been made. It's obscene that we're seeing infections among health care workers who are only treating the patient after diagnosis has been made. Most of them could be prevented by better infection prevention protocols and smarter decisions regarding what care to give and how it should be provided. Actually, this outbreak could have been prevented if we would have stopped allowing people from the infected countries into our freaking country! We are clearly not equipped to handle it and it scares the living shit out of me.
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Rocky Mtn Saver
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Joined: Dec 23, 2010 9:40:57 GMT -5
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Post by Rocky Mtn Saver on Oct 15, 2014 8:12:59 GMT -5
We're an interconnected world, and there's no way to totally prevent this virus from entering in any other countries until the root outbreak is resolved (and that IS something we can do to protect ourselves). If you close the doors, it will find windows to get in through. Close the windows, and it will find vents. The good news is that it does not appear to have been passed on to anyone in Mr. Duncan's circle, as of today. That's fantastic!
There's clearly a lack of training and protocol at this hospital, as evidenced by the Nurses' Association's statements that protocols were terrible. That needs seriously worked on, not just for this one isolated virus but for all infectious disease issues in the future. I'm guessing that most hospitals today are looking at how they can improve their own preparedness for infectious disease. That's a good thing, as well.
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mmhmm
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It's a great pity the right of free speech isn't based on the obligation to say something sensible.
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Post by mmhmm on Oct 15, 2014 8:18:52 GMT -5
This case could not have been prevented by not allowing infected people into this country because there was no way to know Mr. Duncan was infected when he boarded the plane that brought him here. It was through his infection that this person was infected.
I read this morning that the hospital where Mr. Duncan was treated had very poor protocols in place. That's on the hospital and definitely needs to be addressed. It's not just Ebola that endangers health care workers in a hospital system, and it's not just Ebola that can be passed on. No excuse for not having the best infection prevention and isolation protocols in place in every hospital!
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