marvholly
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Post by marvholly on Sept 30, 2014 6:41:11 GMT -5
new people bought the house next to me. They paid 280k+ then did a LOT of work professional refinishing and/or replacing floors, painting and other stuff. They also just replaced their SUV.
They also did a DIY patio. Trouble is we have a law that maximum impermiable surface on a property CANNOT exceed 50%. They are now at 60%. Prior to this additional paving our street was flooding 2 out of 3 rain storms as does my rear yard off the alley 1 out of 3 storms.
They have applied for a zoning variance so as NOT to be requried to remove the new patio. I would like to oppose granting it since I would be most likely to be HIGHLY impacted. However, I do NOT need them or anyone else trying to find unknown to me violations on MY land.
Hearing is in 2 weeks. Do I show to oppose the variance or not?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2014 6:55:52 GMT -5
Why do you assume you have violations on YOUR land?
If the result of granting the variance really would HIGHLY impact your land, then I would oppose it. But I would think you would need some sort of evidence to back you up. Have you had a rain storm since they did the additional paving? You talk about what it was like before. What about since?
In any case, I would attend the hearing. I always attend hearings that affect me. One of the neighbors had his 30 acres rezoned from residential to agricultural. We went. We actually had no problem with the rezoning, but we wanted to know what the zoning commission would say as opposed to just the results.
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milee
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Post by milee on Sept 30, 2014 7:36:11 GMT -5
Might be worth trying to talk to the neighbors first and see if you can work out a solution between you before going to the zoning board.
If you decide to oppose the variance and need to submit a written document, don't do the random CAPITALS in your writing. The zoning board members are acutely aware that sometimes neighbors oppose things for personal reasons that have nothing to do with the overall public good, so the board members look for signs of craziness or excess emotion. You'll be most effective with a simple statement of fact without bringing emotion into it.
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olderburgher
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Post by olderburgher on Sept 30, 2014 8:19:27 GMT -5
You either show up and speak up or learn to live with it and the potential for additional flooding while living there and in trying to sell the place in the future. Will a prospective future owner of your land be thrilled to learn you could have raised the issue at the proper time but decided not to do so?
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Lizard Queen
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Post by Lizard Queen on Sept 30, 2014 8:43:52 GMT -5
Seems to me that unknown violations to you on your land would be grandfathered in. Since these people are new, they probably don't realize the impact that their patio could have. Just be nice about it and explain your concerns. Maybe they can just remove a portion of the patio.
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Peace77
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Post by Peace77 on Sept 30, 2014 9:14:26 GMT -5
Or, maybe the new neighbors have no clue there is a flooding problem. Perhaps instead of asking them to remove the patio, they could do something about the flooding problem. If they dug a large deep hole and filled it with rocks so that water could drain into the hole instead of flooding the area, wouldn't that be better?
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Bonny
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Post by Bonny on Sept 30, 2014 9:25:40 GMT -5
Or, maybe the new neighbors have no clue there is a flooding problem. Perhaps instead of asking them to remove the patio, they could do something about the flooding problem. If they dug a large deep hole and filled it with rocks so that water could drain into the hole instead of flooding the area, wouldn't that be better? I agree that you need to speak up. It's possible that a series of catch basins may work and that your neighbors can work with a hydrologist for a solution. Those requirements are minimums to keep water from sheeting off the hardscape and overwhelming whatever storm drain system is in your area.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2014 9:33:17 GMT -5
new people bought the house next to me. They paid 280k+ then did a LOT of work professional refinishing and/or replacing floors, painting and other stuff. They also just replaced their SUV.
They also did a DIY patio. Trouble is we have a law that maximum impermiable surface on a property CANNOT exceed 50%. They are now at 60%. Prior to this additional paving our street was flooding 2 out of 3 rain storms as does my rear yard off the alley 1 out of 3 storms.
They have applied for a zoning variance so as NOT to be requried to remove the new patio. I would like to oppose granting it since I would be most likely to be HIGHLY impacted. However, I do NOT need them or anyone else trying to find unknown to me violations on MY land.
Hearing is in 2 weeks. Do I show to oppose the variance or not? I'm not sure what the bolded part has to do with anything, but I agree with others here. have you had a rainstorm and did it flood since they put it in? have you mentioned to them about the problem and make any suggestions on how they can fix it?
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GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl
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Post by GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl on Sept 30, 2014 9:44:12 GMT -5
You can speak up without being a cement wall about the issue.
In other words, speak up about your concerns -- i.e., that the impact on a neighborhood that already experiences frequent flooding is not yet known. Ask to have the zoning board decision delayed for a couple of months or even through the spring melting season to see IF and how the patio impacts you and the rest of the neighborhood.
You don't have to go to the meeting dead set against the patio to be heard. Go, be reasonable and rational (I can't emphasize the latter on that), and let the board know that no one, not even the homeowner, has enough information yet to fully understand the impact of the patio on the existing flooding issue. Then, be open to hearing ideas, suggestions, counter-proposals, etc.
If you present yourself as reasonably open to allowing the neighbors to keep the patio IF it doesn't exacerbate the existing flooding problem, then you'll likely avoid having the zoning microscope turned on you.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Sept 30, 2014 10:00:29 GMT -5
I would just go with the intention of listening, at first.
If the neighborhood is known to have flooding problems already, and there is a rule about what percentage of the lot can be impermiable, there will probably already be a representative from the local stormwater management agency there at the hearing. They may suggest things the homeowner can do, such as creating a rainwater swale on the remainer of their property, that would mitigate the problem, or they maybe hard assed about it. We have a rule in our area that you can't build a structure within a certain number of feet from a streambed - someone did it, and actually had to pick up and move the house to fix the problem.
If the stormwater agency person is there, the problem may be resolved without you having to say anything at all - but if there are no agency people there to speak against this violation, then I would certainly stand up and point out the issues you are already having on your property and your concerns that this new patio will make those issues worse, decreasing your property value.
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Sept 30, 2014 10:20:08 GMT -5
Or, maybe the new neighbors have no clue there is a flooding problem. Perhaps instead of asking them to remove the patio, they could do something about the flooding problem. If they dug a large deep hole and filled it with rocks so that water could drain into the hole instead of flooding the area, wouldn't that be better? I agree that you need to speak up. It's possible that a series of catch basins may work and that your neighbors can work with a hydrologist for a solution. Those requirements are minimums to keep water from sheeting off the hardscape and overwhelming whatever storm drain system is in your area. I think you should speak - I don't think your focus should be to directly 'attack' their patio but rather the flooding issue and how the new patio will effect that. I'm guessing there's different ways to build patios (that aren't giant concrete slabs) that makes them more water permiable OR so that they channel water to an appropriate spot.
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kittensaver
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Post by kittensaver on Sept 30, 2014 12:25:01 GMT -5
Well I can't speak to the specifics of your individual situation - BUT - I did go through the variance process on a home a decade or so ago. In general, building commissions/building departments/redevelopment commissions are very reluctant to grant variances because of the precedence they set or have the potential to set. You need to have a good, solid reason (or reasons, plural) why there are no other viable options. [In my case, I was requesting a variance on a historic property, and I had the zoning folks AND the local historic society on my side - AND no neighbor opposition - otherwise, it probably would have failed]. Just off the top, a patio is an amenity - an extra - and NOT something critical to the safety or infrastructure of the home. There are other viable options for amenities, just sayin' . . . it doesn't sound like there is any solid reason why they should be allowed to exceed the surface requirements. But if you or someone else doesn't say so, they might get it.
Commissions/boards take all protests or oppositions (of substance) VERY seriously - as in, if there is a potential geological or flood or right of way issue, that's really important. Merely opposing something based on "looks" or personal preference grounds is not.
You can't stop your neighbors if they try to "get nosy" and find something wrong with your property. But if they do that, it will NOT affect the outcome of their variance request. The two are NOT related. You have the right to speak up. I would do it.
Good luck whatever you decide.
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marvholly
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Post by marvholly on Oct 1, 2014 5:40:51 GMT -5
Southern We have not had a ‘real’ storm since the new paving went in. This may change today or Thur & WILL impact my decision.
Milee Hearings are all verbal responses, nothing written required.
Milizard NOTHING is ever grandfathered here in as far as variance are concerned.
Peace There is NO space to dig a pit between my property & their new patio. The new patio comes right up to the fence (property line) between us. I would be happy with a drainage pit.
As of right now I think I will: 1) speak to the neighbor on the other side 2) go to the hearing & see how the 'wind' is blowing 3) speak up if I need to, calmly citing immediate area flooding issues already existant
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Peace77
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Post by Peace77 on Oct 1, 2014 6:33:14 GMT -5
Holly,
Is there ANYPLACE on their property to make a drainage pit? Perhaps between the patio and the alley?
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Oct 2, 2014 10:22:26 GMT -5
If things don't go your way, you could always build a patio that puts your property also at 60% impermiable surface. If your neighbor got a variance, you should too.
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muttleynfelix
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Post by muttleynfelix on Oct 2, 2014 10:55:27 GMT -5
I'm a civil engineer that does a lot of stormwater design. Just a rough estimate - on a typical 1/4 acre lot, a 10% increase in impervious area results in an insignificant amount of water in the 100 year storm (0.26 cfs, using the 100 year storm here in SW Missouri). Unless you have a lot that is an acre or larger, a 10% increase is not something noticeable. Now if that 10% is draining directly onto your property, then yeah, it might be. While I would go to the zoning board, I think you also need to talk to the neighbors about doing a rain garden, a rain barrel or some other method to retain the water on their site. www.springfieldmo.gov/DocumentCenter/Home/View/3079Can they put a curb on that edge of their patio to direct the water to the back of the patio, then do a rain garden where it discharges off the patio.
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Peace77
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Post by Peace77 on Oct 2, 2014 12:33:35 GMT -5
What the OP didn't mention above is that a normal storm floods the area enough that she is unable to put out the trash or recycling.
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CarolinaKat
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Post by CarolinaKat on Oct 2, 2014 13:06:47 GMT -5
I'm a civil engineer that does a lot of stormwater design. Just a rough estimate - on a typical 1/4 acre lot, a 10% increase in impervious area results in an insignificant amount of water in the 100 year storm (0.26 cfs, using the 100 year storm here in SW Missouri). Unless you have a lot that is an acre or larger, a 10% increase is not something noticeable. Now if that 10% is draining directly onto your property, then yeah, it might be. While I would go to the zoning board, I think you also need to talk to the neighbors about doing a rain garden, a rain barrel or some other method to retain the water on their site. www.springfieldmo.gov/DocumentCenter/Home/View/3079Can they put a curb on that edge of their patio to direct the water to the back of the patio, then do a rain garden where it discharges off the patio. What is this 'rain garden' you mention?
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muttleynfelix
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Post by muttleynfelix on Oct 2, 2014 13:11:35 GMT -5
The link explains it. A rain garden is a depressed area in the yard designed to retain stormwater. Typically, you plant the area with native plants that like water. The roots of the plants facilitate infiltration. The link is for my area, but they are pretty popular in other parts of the country and you should be able to find something for your local area. (If you want me to do some research, you can PM me your location and I can see what kind of local resources you have). www.springfieldmo.gov/DocumentCenter/Home/View/3079
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muttleynfelix
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Post by muttleynfelix on Oct 2, 2014 13:12:34 GMT -5
On a note - DO NOT PUT A RAIN GARDEN NEXT TO YOUR FOUNDATION (or your neighbor's foundation). Bad things happen when water is directed next to your foundation.
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CarolinaKat
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Post by CarolinaKat on Oct 2, 2014 13:15:12 GMT -5
On a note - DO NOT PUT A RAIN GARDEN NEXT TO YOUR FOUNDATION (or your neighbor's foundation). Bad things happen when water is directed next to your foundation. LOL, I have a 12' ditch out in the pasture that has a little pond at one end. I think I"m good on that count. The turtles like it. ETA, the ditch goes 12' down, it's much much longer than that!!!
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CarolinaKat
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Post by CarolinaKat on Oct 2, 2014 13:28:47 GMT -5
The link explains it. A rain garden is a depressed area in the yard designed to retain stormwater. Typically, you plant the area with native plants that like water. The roots of the plants facilitate infiltration. The link is for my area, but they are pretty popular in other parts of the country and you should be able to find something for your local area. (If you want me to do some research, you can PM me your location and I can see what kind of local resources you have). www.springfieldmo.gov/DocumentCenter/Home/View/3079Rain gardens seem super cool. Thanks for sharing that I totally support the idea of using local plants, but then again I use them because i'm a super lazy landscaper who doesn't want to replant things
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tskeeter
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Post by tskeeter on Oct 2, 2014 18:36:29 GMT -5
I'm a civil engineer that does a lot of stormwater design. Just a rough estimate - on a typical 1/4 acre lot, a 10% increase in impervious area results in an insignificant amount of water in the 100 year storm (0.26 cfs, using the 100 year storm here in SW Missouri). Unless you have a lot that is an acre or larger, a 10% increase is not something noticeable. Now if that 10% is draining directly onto your property, then yeah, it might be. While I would go to the zoning board, I think you also need to talk to the neighbors about doing a rain garden, a rain barrel or some other method to retain the water on their site. www.springfieldmo.gov/DocumentCenter/Home/View/3079Can they put a curb on that edge of their patio to direct the water to the back of the patio, then do a rain garden where it discharges off the patio. So, if I've done my conversions correctly, .26 cfs translates into about 2 gallons a second, or 7,200 gallons an hour. Or about 936 square feet, one foot deep. That seems like quite a bit of water to have running into your yard from your neighbor's yard. Especially considering that marvholly regularly had accumulations of storm water when it rained before the neighbors made the changes. IIRC marvholly lives in/near San Diego. So, very small yards by midwestern standards (the back yard of our house in Anaheim was about the size of a three car garage). If an additional hour of storm water had been trapped in our back yard in Anaheim, it would have been about six inches deep in the kitchen and family room. Now, some of the storm water would have drained away during the hour by running down the hallway, and out the garage door into the steet. So, it probably wouldn't have really gotten six inches deep. But, we still would probably have had an issue. By the way, So Cal streets seem to be designed to flood when it rains. So, the street flooding that marvholly describes is pretty common. In many parts of the country, every intersection has four storm drains. In So Cal, there is often one storm drain every two or three blocks, not four storm drains every block. To me, it looks like So Cal designs their streets to act as storm water holding basins, which regulate the amount of water entering the storm drain system, then discharging down rivers. Kind of shifts the flooding to areas where it does the least damage.
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Peace77
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Post by Peace77 on Oct 2, 2014 21:37:13 GMT -5
You must have MarvHolly confused with someone else. She lives near Chicago.
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marvholly
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Post by marvholly on Oct 3, 2014 5:01:33 GMT -5
Peace There is a small area about 15 inches by 10 feet that could be used for drainage. However, that is NOT enough to hold very much AND it attaches to their patio only at the 15 inch point so the patio would need special grading to ‘tilt’ into this proposed pit. That automativcally means removing, regrading & redoing the new patio.
Muttley Today is the first big storm since the patio went in. As soon as it is light I WILL go out to check if and how much if any I am impacted. I do like your curb idea and will, if needed, push for that on THEIR side at THEIR expense.
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marvholly
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Post by marvholly on Oct 4, 2014 6:11:04 GMT -5
The........junk did hit the fan. I will be opposing the variance because: it sets a precedent that others will request & take to court if not granted which will = even more f;ooding issues my patio flooded (NEVER since 1988 or 80 after we had it graded) which lead to water coming into my family room 3rd reason I cannot recall right now-better write it all down so I remember in 10 days. I am also seeing some weird things w/this couple: level of spending for a couple of teachers paying for private, in home daycare never see the child except on a weekend day CPS REQUIRES all teachers to live in the city how can they live in the burbs?
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swamp
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THEY’RE EATING THE DOGS!!!!!!!
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Post by swamp on Oct 4, 2014 6:19:56 GMT -5
The persoanl stuff has nothing to do with the variance.
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justme
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Post by justme on Oct 4, 2014 9:07:21 GMT -5
I'm guessing it's too late now, but if it does it again I'd make sure to get photos of the flooding on your property.
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Peace77
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Post by Peace77 on Oct 4, 2014 9:07:50 GMT -5
Did they tell you what school they work for?
The amount of money they are spending isn't your business. Maybe they have a trust fund or inheritance.
Can you put a drain pit, water barrel or water garden on your property?
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Oct 4, 2014 9:21:07 GMT -5
You seem more interested in/upset by their personal lives and spending habits then you do the patio itself. I would suggest finding a way to let that go before the board meeting, or it probably won't go in your favor. Otherwise you just come off as the nosy neighbor.
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