Ray Rice NFL Suspension Over Domestic Violence.

[djAdvocate]

Sept 15, 2014 8:49:45 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Sept 13, 2014 21:27:17 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP, that is utter hogwash. You have to know that. You're not an imbecile. Please, just quit with the nonsensical arguments. They don't stand you in good stead. Honestly. They don't.

I have no illusions about the stead I stand in here.  You may not understand my argument- it is definitely a message "for those who have ears to hear", but it's spot on. Maybe you'll see it one day, maybe you won't.  If you don't like it- please, instead of the long fancy shame me into shutting up approach- and the "no its not" argument-- try making a counter intellectual point. 

Fundamentally, if you understand that liberalism is an ideology at war with nature- you can decode the whole thing.   has to be considered in the brave new world we now occupy.

evolution is part of nature.
conservatives are at war with evolution.
conservatives are at war with nature.

[djAdvocate]

Sept 15, 2014 10:11:27 GMT -5 Shooby said:

And, I think we should let the legal and criminal justice system sort these things through. An "accusation" should not be enough to get someone fired from their job. I would think there should be some evidence and due process. Everyone is going ape because they didn't suspend him 2 games ago. Well, what difference does that make? Doesn't it make more sense to follow through the process and gather facts FIRST? If someone is guilty, the facts will come out, which they did. So, what is the problem?

cops are suspended on the basis of accusation all of the time.  i see no problem with it whatsoever.

[billisonboard]

Sept 15, 2014 10:58:17 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Sept 15, 2014 0:11:32 GMT -5 Sum Dum Gai said:

And if she just slaps him? He's bigger so he just has to take it?

can't speak for him, or you.  but if a woman slaps me, i am man enough to take it.

I am man enough to put up with being abused also. I am human enough to not accept being abused by another human being.

[djAdvocate]

Sept 15, 2014 11:19:19 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Sept 15, 2014 10:58:17 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

can't speak for him, or you.  but if a woman slaps me, i am man enough to take it.

I am man enough to put up with being abused also. I am human enough to not accept being abused by another human being.

real men don't settle arguments with their fists, or their guns, or their knives.  they settle them with their minds. 

[Deleted]

Just tossing my two cents in:

I was always large for my age growing up, and got guy level strong in high school at a heavy boned 5'9".  

Only assholes beat up weaker people.  I did take a lot of punches from my younger sister, and was the buffer between older and younger sis in the car, because I was taught to be very placid due how big I was early.  The size can be very useful, but you don't abuse it and I was taught not to hit people because I could do a lot of damage especially if they were smaller.  

I love my sisters, so I didn't hit little sis when she'd whip me with her binkie in the face over and over again.  Older sis and I used to wrestle each other for kicks until middle school, but I scared her once at how strong I'd gotten, and we didn't do it again after that.  


I did cross country in high school, and took a season of wrestling to learn self defense concepts for my travels.  Never underestimate smaller people, but all things being equal, size can be an insane advantage, the possible extra damage can be immense.  We wrestled up and down in practice, and I gathered to never engage in a real fight with people trained similarly who are larger; the odds of success are too low.  I and people in my category (189 lbs) could pretty much pick up the lighter weight wrestlers by the scruff and toss them, the heavies could flip us all around like rag dolls.

We had a heavy weight who once picked up another heavy who was close to 300 pounds, clean lifted the guy above his waist in a match.  Everybody went still, because if he'd thrown the other guy and smashed down on top, bones would've been broken, 99% likelihood, so much weight and force crashing down.  Instead our guy thought about it, set the guy down, and they kept going on foot.  Because our heavyweight was a good guy, not an asshole.  He knew how strong he was, and what happens when you sling that strength around too aggressively.

I have a very low opinion of people who smash around weaker people.  

I say that as a girl who was legitimately proven stronger by lifting power than most of the male population in high school.  I never looked strong since subcutaneous fat still softened me, but in a strange irony, I both looked very feminine from nicely shaped limbs and butt and totally flat stomach, but also apparently scared the jeebies out of some guys when they saw me moving things in the weight room.  It was developed for defense, but some guys definitely seemed nervous that I might be an asshole with the strength like some the other people in school.  The super strong weight room guys seemed to get a kick out of it though, they kept teasing the scared ones and chattering with me.

But no.  If someone weaker slapped me when I was that strong, I wouldn't have cracked their joints or smashed their head on the ground.  From someone who's been there, a slap is pretty much nothing when you're used to being body slammed to the ground.  That response is only for real danger, not pinches or a smack from someone teetering in god awful footwear not able to get a bit of waist and leg power into a whap.  The force differential is insane.

Just my stance on the matter.

[mmhmm]

Sept 15, 2014 11:24:48 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Sept 15, 2014 11:19:19 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

I am man enough to put up with being abused also. I am human enough to not accept being abused by another human being.

real men don't settle arguments with their fists, or their guns, or their knives.  they settle them with their minds. 

Real women do the same thing. 

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Liberalism is an ideology at war with nature, and the NFL front in this war has been opened.  Like most of the war on nature, the targets are caught completely off guard, they don't know what is happening, many are in denial it's happening because the very ideas being put forth are often dismissed as totally absurd (because they are) and they only realize the stakes after it's too late.  I hope the NFL, and the country can rally around football and save it-- but it's probably already too late.  Another institution is going to be utterly and completely destroyed by liberalism.  Oh, there'll still be football, but by the time the left is done with it, it'll be coed flag football and the league will be forced to pay for contraception and sex change operations.

moonbattery.com/?p=50268

Progressives were able to impose their sick ideology on a previously healthy society by making a long march through the institutions so as to capture the cultural high ground. They infiltrated the influential pillars of the establishment and eventually took them over, driving out most everyone who would resist their agenda. It happened to the news media, to Hollywood, to education, to the federal bureaucracy. Given that so many focus their attention obsessively on sports, it is unsurprising that progressives have strategically taken over the sports media too.

Typically, NBC is the most over the top, featuring the obnoxious left-wing twerps Keith Olbermann and Bob Costas. But ESPN is catching up fast with mouthpieces like Kate Fagan. Here is how she exploited the story of Ray Rice punching his girlfriend to call for “reprogramming” men not to be so masculine:

“This is behavior that is happening at the grassroots level that is born through years of our culture like raising men to want to not be like women and using language like ‘sissy’ and ‘you throw like a girl’ that demean women. These are all contributing factors and I think if we want to hold the NFL’s feet to the fire over this issue, we shouldn’t be looking at the number of game suspensions because I don’t really think that’s going to change the problem. I think holding NFL’s feet to the fire should mean getting them to throw the kitchen sink at domestic violence, to invest millions of dollars in grassroots organizations in going into middle schools and high schools and colleges, and talking to young men about dealing with anger, about how they treat women. I think that’s where you’re going to see change. I think that right now all of this reactive behavior is not going to change it, as much as going in and going into the school systems and the younger spaces and really reprogramming how we raise men.”

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Sept 15, 2014 11:05:30 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Sept 15, 2014 8:49:45 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

I have no illusions about the stead I stand in here.  You may not understand my argument- it is definitely a message "for those who have ears to hear", but it's spot on. Maybe you'll see it one day, maybe you won't.  If you don't like it- please, instead of the long fancy shame me into shutting up approach- and the "no its not" argument-- try making a counter intellectual point. 

Fundamentally, if you understand that liberalism is an ideology at war with nature- you can decode the whole thing.   has to be considered in the brave new world we now occupy.

evolution is part of nature.
conservatives are at war with evolution.
conservatives are at war with nature.

Evolution is a theory.  Entropy is a fact.  Conservatives are at war with Entropy.  We're at war with degradation and decay.  We're salt and light.  We are called conservatives because we wish to conserve the best of everything.  We don't progress for the sake of progression.  We regard progress as a more perfect application of conservative principles-- like the extension of natural rights to slaves and the unborn.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Sept 15, 2014 10:16:43 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

Sept 15, 2014 9:16:37 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

If I am not mistaken, this involves an automatic adjudication of "guilty" if not successfully completed, as well.  So, the legal system did deal with this.  The NFL is between a rock and a hard place on this-- you have a team owner and a league who have a significant investment in Rice.  Should THEY be punished because of what happens off the field?

Perhaps the team owner and the league should entertain the idea of taking back what they can get of their investment from Ray Rice. Just a thought ...

A player isn't a piece of equipment.  He's a member of a team.  A human being with unique traits, and a personality the rest of the human beings involved with have gotten to know on the field.  It's more complicated than just the money- the whole team is going to have to basically hit the reset button-- not because he's hurt and can't play.  But because of something that happened off the field.

Look, I agree the official punishment was too light- he was, IMHO, undercharged.  I understand this is often the case with DV, unfortunately.  And I get that if he was in lockup, they'd be out of luck.  

EDIT: Maybe this is a good lesson for libertarians and liberals who tend to believe that freedom is a kind of empty licentiousness- maybe we see in this microcosm of sports what happens in real life when someone's behavior has a ripple effect throughout a community.  We see the direct economic and productivity costs of moral decay.

[mmhmm]

Blah, blah, blah. This has absolutely nothing whatever to do with liberals and/or conservatives. We're talking about domestic violence and football here. This is Current Events, not Politics, AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP. This habit of trying to twist everything into a political argument so the stump can be pulled out, stood upon, and ranted/proselytized from is getting older than dirt!

[chiver78]

Sept 15, 2014 12:33:03 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

Blah, blah, blah. This has absolutely nothing whatever to do with liberals and/or conservatives. We're talking about domestic violence and football here. This is Current Events, not Politics, AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP. This habit of trying to twist everything into a political argument so the stump can be pulled out, stood upon, and ranted/proselytized from is getting older than dirt!

and this Current Events moderator is sick of wading through baloney political lectures that have nothing to do with the thread topic.

knock it off, Paul. discuss the thread topic of DV and the NFL. I'm going to start deleting the long lectures to outer space.

-chiver mod

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Sept 15, 2014 12:33:03 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

Blah, blah, blah. This has absolutely nothing whatever to do with liberals and/or conservatives. We're talking about domestic violence and football here. This is Current Events, not Politics, AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP. This habit of trying to twist everything into a political argument so the stump can be pulled out, stood upon, and ranted/proselytized from is getting older than dirt!

Everything is politics.  It is not my opinion, or my decision, but my observation.  It wasn't me that brought up how men need to be reprogrammed to not be men- that was the solution proposed by some broad who clearly needs to be slapped on ESPN.  Now that you have Rice beating his wife, and Peterson beating his child-- just wait, we're going to be into a full-fledged white liberal elite assault on the "culture of violence" in sports, and how it causes war, and perpetuates poverty, and that's when the liberal shakedown of the NFL will begin in earnest.  You see, we need "funding", so we can reprogram men.  The obvious racial overtones of the whole mess will be ignored because rich, white, liberal elites can say anything they want.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Sept 15, 2014 11:24:48 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Sept 15, 2014 11:19:19 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

I am man enough to put up with being abused also. I am human enough to not accept being abused by another human being.

real men don't settle arguments with their fists, or their guns, or their knives.  they settle them with their minds. 

Yeah- unless their minds have been severed from the rest of their bodies by radical islamists.  Kinda tough to participate in transcendental meditation for world peace until we all finally levitate and love vibrates through all the planes of our existence when our heads have been lopped off.  At some point, real men have to stand up and kill someone.  The trouble is that Rice failed to discern that this was not one of those points.

[mmhmm]

Sept 15, 2014 13:25:03 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Sept 15, 2014 12:33:03 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

Blah, blah, blah. This has absolutely nothing whatever to do with liberals and/or conservatives. We're talking about domestic violence and football here. This is Current Events, not Politics, AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP. This habit of trying to twist everything into a political argument so the stump can be pulled out, stood upon, and ranted/proselytized from is getting older than dirt!

Everything is politics.  It is not my opinion, or my decision, but my observation.  It wasn't me that brought up how men need to be reprogrammed to not be men- that was the solution proposed by some broad who clearly needs to be slapped on ESPN.  Now that you have Rice beating his wife, and Peterson beating his child-- just wait, we're going to be into a full-fledged white liberal elite assault on the "culture of violence" in sports, and how it causes war, and perpetuates poverty, and that's when the liberal shakedown of the NFL will begin in earnest.  You see, we need "funding", so we can reprogram men.  The obvious racial overtones of the whole mess will be ignored because rich, white, liberal elites can say anything they want.

Everything may be politics to you, paul, but everything is not politics to everyone. You can observe whatever you like. Your observations don't run my world, and they don't run the worlds of others. Chiver has told you to take your political rants out of Current Events or they'll be removed. I'd suggest you do so. I'm perfectly willing to help Chiver delete them.

mmhmm, Administrator

[djAdvocate]

Sept 15, 2014 13:30:27 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Sept 15, 2014 11:24:48 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

real men don't settle arguments with their fists, or their guns, or their knives.  they settle them with their minds. 

Yeah- unless their minds have been severed from the rest of their bodies by radical islamists. 

actually, i would argue that a rational response to this is far more important than to a fistfight.  they EXPECT us to retaliate.  if we fail to do that, we gain the upper hand.

[djAdvocate]

Sept 15, 2014 11:52:40 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Liberalism is an ideology at war with nature, and the NFL front in this war has been opened. 

you think this just started?  it is to laugh:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scopes_Trial

[djAdvocate]

Sept 15, 2014 11:52:40 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Liberalism is an ideology at war with nature, and the NFL front in this war has been opened.  Like most of the war on nature, the targets are caught completely off guard, they don't know what is happening, many are in denial it's happening because the very ideas being put forth are often dismissed as totally absurd (because they are) and they only realize the stakes after it's too late.  I hope the NFL, and the country can rally around football and save it-- but it's probably already too late.  Another institution is going to be utterly and completely destroyed by liberalism. 

if it will be destroyed, it will be from within, from their own corruption and dross.  don't blame anyone other than the NFL for that, or be caught out in that lie by anyone paying attention.  your choice.

Oh, there'll still be football, but by the time the left is done with it, it'll be coed flag football and the league will be forced to pay for contraception and sex change operations.

moonbattery.com/?p=50268

moonbattery?  LOL!  clever page name.

[mmhmm]

We need to take the political discussion out of Current Events (and this thread), djAdvocate. It's not really germane to the thread, and Chiver has asked PBP to cut it out.

mmhmm, Administrator

[djAdvocate]

Sept 15, 2014 14:17:35 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

We need to take the political discussion out of Current Events (and this thread), djAdvocate. It's not really germane to the thread, and Chiver has asked PBP to cut it out.

mmhmm, Administrator

no problem.  but everything is about liberalism, don't you know?  and Obama. 

[djAdvocate]

Sept 15, 2014 11:55:21 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Sept 15, 2014 11:05:30 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

evolution is part of nature.
conservatives are at war with evolution.
conservatives are at war with nature.

Evolution is a theory.  Entropy is a fact. 

Gravitation is also a theory.  but  i don't see many conservatives disputing it.  that is because, like evolution, it is a very durable theory.  it has been tested for centuries, and it holds up pretty well (with small nods to Einstein).  however, unlike evolution, it doesn't really conflict with the Bible. 

Conservatives are at war with Entropy. 

then you are destined to lose, according to the Second Law of Thermodynamics.  but i am sure you will find some pride in fighting that losing battle, while the rest of us sit back and laugh at y'all.  Don Quixote has nothing on conservatives.

[djAdvocate]

Sept 15, 2014 11:59:55 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

EDIT: Maybe this is a good lesson for libertarians and liberals who tend to believe that freedom is a kind of empty licentiousness- maybe we see in this microcosm of sports what happens in real life when someone's behavior has a ripple effect throughout a community.  We see the direct economic and productivity costs of moral decay.

yeah, because the NFL has always been about what is right and good in society.  right. 

[djAdvocate]

moderators: you are welcome to move that entire exchange to another thread if you wish.  i just wanted to finish it. 

[mmhmm]

I'll leave it for now. If Chiver wants it moved, I could always create a Paul's Politics thread in Politics. That would give people an obvious choice!

[djAdvocate]

Sept 15, 2014 13:30:27 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Sept 15, 2014 11:24:48 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

real men don't settle arguments with their fists, or their guns, or their knives.  they settle them with their minds. 

Yeah- unless their minds have been severed from the rest of their bodies by radical islamists.  Kinda tough to participate in transcendental meditation for world peace until we all finally levitate and love vibrates through all the planes of our existence when our heads have been lopped off.  At some point, real men have to stand up and kill someone. 

was Gandhi a girly-man?
was Martin Luther King?
was Kennedy?
was Lincoln?

[chiver78]

if Paul sees fit to continue the tangential discussion when he's back online, I'd say that's a good idea.

[Tennesseer]

Sept 15, 2014 13:25:03 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Sept 15, 2014 12:33:03 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

Blah, blah, blah. This has absolutely nothing whatever to do with liberals and/or conservatives. We're talking about domestic violence and football here. This is Current Events, not Politics, AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP. This habit of trying to twist everything into a political argument so the stump can be pulled out, stood upon, and ranted/proselytized from is getting older than dirt!

Everything is politics.  It is not my opinion, or my decision, but my observation.  It wasn't me that brought up how men need to be reprogrammed to not be men- that was the solution proposed by some broad who clearly needs to be slapped on ESPN.  Now that you have Rice beating his wife, and Peterson beating his child-- just wait, we're going to be into a full-fledged white liberal elite assault on the "culture of violence" in sports, and how it causes war, and perpetuates poverty, and that's when the liberal shakedown of the NFL will begin in earnest.  You see, we need "funding", so we can reprogram men.  The obvious racial overtones of the whole mess will be ignored because rich, white, liberal elites can say anything they want.

Interesting comment. A public slapping for expressing an opinion.

[steff]

Ok, gonna ramble for a minute....

I've already said that I'm a Liberal and that I love football.  I watch more football than both of the men in my house put together.  I watch college football on Friday nights, all day Saturday, I watch pro football on Sundays, Mondays, and any Thursday night games.  I plan my weekends around what sports I'm watching, be it football or racing.  Everyone who knows me, knows not to bug me on Talladega weekends.  My mom watched a Cleveland pre-season game just so she could see Johnny Football since she knows I'm an A&M fan & a Johnny fan.  We have 2 male friends that call me when they have football questions (both from another country, so they actually do have real questions).   For the last 2 years, I'm not allowed in our football pool  because I've won too many times. I make our college bowl game pool selections.   Because I LOVE football.  I love the passion that it can be played with and, somewhat sadly, I love the big hits.

I've also said that I was raised in a violent home.  football is a violent game.  I'm the first to yell out "kill the QB" when it's a team I don't like.  I'll groan and yell when I see a great catch or a receiver get taken out brutally.  A part of me enjoys the violence of the game.  But I've always seen it as a game, on the field.  The violence is contained to the game.  but the reality is, it's not as contained as I wish/hoped/pretended it was.  All too often the violence carries over in real life.  Until recently, I felt that I had worked out a balance between my loathing of violence and my love of such a violent game.  as much as I love a good smashing hit, I agree with new rules meant to protect players in light of all the head injury issues.  reading up on Chris Henry & how his off field issues were directly tied to the brain damage he had suffered already had me looking at a players off field behavior differently.  But maybe that was just feeding into my justification of it being "controlled violence/a game".  when I've taken a stand against something to do with football, I've focused on just the player involved and the team he's playing for (Michael Vick & Ben Rothlesburger specifically).  But the NFL has so royally screwed the pooch on this one that I wonder how much I should have been looking at them as well as the players.  the flood gates have opened now and all the ugly that is hidden is now spilling out.  

I've always been against using athletes as role models for kids anyway.  All of these recent issues have just reinforced that belief. 

I love football.  I'm not ready to throw my football baby out with the bathwater, but something is going to have to change.  Violence against women & children (and yes, I believe beating your kids ass with a switch is violence against a child) are 2 things that I'm very vocal about being against & it's where I donate my time volunteering. 

and to end on a positive note about football (which is hard to do lately), my kiddo found me this video today about a kid from UGA.  when I watched the video, I couldn't help but wonder, which person is really learning the most of the situation?  the young man or the women in the group?  and it reminds me why I'm not ready to just throw away football.

www.cbsnews.com/news/football-star-shows-you-cant-judge-a-book-by-its-cover/

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Sept 15, 2014 14:42:25 GMT -5 Sum Dum Gai said:

Sept 15, 2014 14:35:00 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

was Gandhi a girly-man?
was Martin Luther King?
was Kennedy?
was Lincoln?

Kind of.
No.
Total playa.
Nope, complete badass, especially in Abraham Lincoln Vampire Hunter.

They all used force.  They all advocated for the use of force.  There's a difference between choosing a more effective tactic to compel your opponent to act against their will-- which in every case, this was the objective, btw-- and raw, unadulterated brain dead pacifism.  And Lincoln, really?

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

* You were told to take the political stuff off this forum by one of the forum moderators, AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP. That's what you're expected to do. Further rants about liberals, particularly those that tell other people whether they are, or aren't a liberal, will be deleted without notification. - mmhmm, Administrator

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Sept 15, 2014 14:17:26 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Sept 15, 2014 11:52:40 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Liberalism is an ideology at war with nature, and the NFL front in this war has been opened.  Like most of the war on nature, the targets are caught completely off guard, they don't know what is happening, many are in denial it's happening because the very ideas being put forth are often dismissed as totally absurd (because they are) and they only realize the stakes after it's too late.  I hope the NFL, and the country can rally around football and save it-- but it's probably already too late.  Another institution is going to be utterly and completely destroyed by liberalism. 

if it will be destroyed, it will be from within, from their own corruption and dross.  don't blame anyone other than the NFL for that, or be caught out in that lie by anyone paying attention.  your choice.

Oh, there'll still be football, but by the time the left is done with it, it'll be coed flag football and the league will be forced to pay for contraception and sex change operations.

moonbattery.com/?p=50268

moonbattery?  LOL!  clever page name.

With respect to your comment- "if it will be destroyed, it will be from within, from their own corruption and dross. don't blame anyone other than the NFL for that, or be caught out in that lie by anyone paying attention. your choice." -- There's some truth to it to be sure.  I'm not a fan of throwing the baby out with the bathwater, but I've long thought that it was a mistake, and a sign of societal decay in general when somewhere along the line, we as fans started accepting degenerate lifestyles, drug use, lying about drug use, violent and other criminal behavior by professional athletes.  The NFL's corruption-- and I agree with you that it exists, is a microcosm of our entire society's win-at-all-costs mentality.  And I'm not naive-- I know that in the past it was easier to sweep scandals under the rug.  I know the media ran cover for Pete Rose, Lance Armstrong, Michael Jordan, Tiger Woods, and others and they got away with things for a long time.  

Hopefully, this manner of limelight will result in some positive change.  Hopefully it will not just degenerate into a politicized mess the way so much of life does these days.