Just an interesting topic to discuss

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

Mrs. Jones may have an issue with her employer or her father or her children seeing her naked, bent over, making the kissy lip face over her shoulder!

It worked for Paris Hilton and Kim Kardashian.

[zibazinski]

I'm a nobody and I wouldn't like myself splashed all over. At least I can say it isn't me. I'd be mortified if it was. 

[imawino]

Sept 2, 2014 15:04:09 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

I think people need to remember technology isn't all it's cracked up to be. Someone with enough time and enough talent can retrieve just about anything so you can never assume that what you sent via email, your phone, facebook, twitter is truly gone.

It's not like a film version that you can sneak out of your boyfriend's house and burn/shred. Unless someone had the negatives a film image of you is gone once you destroy it. Doing it and saving it on the computer is not the same thing.

But we don't blame everyone who has ever had their credit card number stolen in a data breach for being such a stupid slut and having a credit card in the first place so they got what's coming to them

No but I think most people nowadays understand the risks they are taking by putting your credit card information online and credit cards do offer protection for that kind of thing.   It's a PITA to clean up no denying it but I can get a new card and VISA will delete the transaction.

Your personal picture uploads don't have any kind of protection, once they are taken they are gone and free for everyone to use.  I can't get them back.   I don't think people realize that "private" accounts online aren't really private.  You're just as much at risk as you are using your credit card on a public site.

So you can't assume it's gone forever, but my point still remains - you should be able to assume that people stealing private images is a crime and will be treated as such - and that victims of crimes are not that ones that should have the blame pointed at them. 

I just don't get the insistence of people to over and over and over try to find a way to continue to interject a bunch of "yeah it's a crime, but....." in the conversation. What's the reasoning behind making sure everyone knows you think the victim was kind of to blame?

[muttleynfelix]

Sept 2, 2014 14:54:07 GMT -5 movingforward said:

The celebrities did nothing wrong here by sharing images of their own bodies with selected individuals.

No, they did nothing wrong; however, I do think it is stupid because the person you share it with might end up showing it to the world.  Especially young teens who are sending out nude photos of themselves to "the love of their life."  Meanwhile the love of their life is showing it in the locker room or forwarding it to his buddies.  Unfortunately, teenage girls can be both naive and stupid.  They think they are in love with "the one" and the "the one" would never hurt them but things often don't turn out that way. 

Under 18 it is wrong because it is child pornography. So if a young teen takes a nude picture of themselves and sends it to someone, that other person is now in the possession of child porn.  That can get you in big trouble. 

[zibazinski]

Considering that this has happened before, a lot, I have to wonder why anyone would do it?

[movingforward]

Sept 2, 2014 15:19:08 GMT -5 muttleynfelix said:

Sept 2, 2014 14:54:07 GMT -5 movingforward said:

No, they did nothing wrong; however, I do think it is stupid because the person you share it with might end up showing it to the world.  Especially young teens who are sending out nude photos of themselves to "the love of their life."  Meanwhile the love of their life is showing it in the locker room or forwarding it to his buddies.  Unfortunately, teenage girls can be both naive and stupid.  They think they are in love with "the one" and the "the one" would never hurt them but things often don't turn out that way. 

Under 18 it is wrong because it is child pornography. So if a young teen takes a nude picture of themselves and sends it to someone, that other person is now in the possession of child porn.  That can get you in big trouble. 

I don't think teens are getting the message though.  Teens are sending other teens nude pics.  It's not like they are sending it to a 30 yr old.  I don't know if a fifteen year old sending a nude photo to a sixteen year old is thinking of it as child pornography. 

[Firebird]

I just don't get the insistence of people to over and over and over try to find a way to continue to interject a bunch of "yeah it's a crime, but....." in the conversation. What's the reasoning behind making sure everyone knows you think the victim was kind of to blame?



I wish I had more time and emotional energy to devote to this debate today but I don't.  I'm glad imawino is acting as the voice of reason here.

It is wrong to blame the victim, and stating that their actions were "stupid" or just "not smart" (or anything else) IS BLAMING THE VICTIM. 

It doesn't MATTER if you morally agree with the action of taking nude pics or not.  What they did wasn't illegal.  What the hackers/peeping Toms did WAS illegal.  They didn't ask for it to happen, they didn't invite it. 

It doesn't MATTER how those photos came to be.  The point is that THEY WERE NEVER MEANT TO BE SEEN BY ANYONE OTHER THAN THE ORIGINAL RECIPIENTS. 

That's all there is to it. 

[muttleynfelix]

Sept 2, 2014 15:22:40 GMT -5 movingforward said:

Sept 2, 2014 15:19:08 GMT -5 muttleynfelix said:

Under 18 it is wrong because it is child pornography. So if a young teen takes a nude picture of themselves and sends it to someone, that other person is now in the possession of child porn.  That can get you in big trouble. 

I don't think teens are getting the message though.  Teens are sending other teens nude pics.  It's not like they are sending it to a 30 yr old.  I don't know if a fifteen year old sending a nude photo to a sixteen year old is thinking of it as child pornography. 

No they don't get it or see it that way. Regardless of what it is or isn't. 

[zibazinski]

Parents need to be clearer. Parents of both sexes.

[imawino]

Sept 2, 2014 15:23:17 GMT -5 Firebird said:

I just don't get the insistence of people to over and over and over try to find a way to continue to interject a bunch of "yeah it's a crime, but....." in the conversation. What's the reasoning behind making sure everyone knows you think the victim was kind of to blame?



I wish I had more time and emotional energy to devote to this debate today but I don't.  I'm glad imawino is acting as the voice of reason here.

It is wrong to blame the victim, and stating that their actions were "stupid" or just "not smart" (or anything else) IS BLAMING THE VICTIM. 

It doesn't MATTER if you morally agree with the action of taking nude pics or not.  What they did wasn't illegal.  What the hackers/peeping Toms did WAS illegal.  They didn't ask for it to happen, they didn't invite it. 

It doesn't MATTER how those photos came to be.  The point is that THEY WERE NEVER MEANT TO BE SEEN BY ANYONE OTHER THAN THE ORIGINAL RECIPIENTS. 

That's all there is to it. 

I've never been referred to as a voice of reason before!  It's exciting. 

[Miss Tequila]

I think this is a crime. I do think women need to use their heads...I don't go emailing nekkid pictures of myself to ANYONE because you don't know who will get them or if your current loverboy will turn out to be a douche who then publishes them somewhere (that is exactly what I tell my daughter, btw).

But how the hell is this equivalent of rape? Oy, between the "rape culture" and the 'war on women" I am beginning to feel like I might actually have a penis. I would be beyond pissed and mortified if someone stole nekkid pictures from me, but I would certainly not equate it to rape.

[midjd]

"Rape culture" does not equal rape.

[Miss Tequila]

Sept 2, 2014 15:32:11 GMT -5 midjd said:

"Rape culture" does not equal rape.

Stealing naked pictures does not equal rape culture. 

[ken a.k.a OMK]

Taking anything that isn't yours is a crime. In this case hacking into the cloud or what ever is stealing private property, whether it be pictures or bank accounts.

[Firebird]

But how the hell is this equivalent of rape? Oy, between the "rape culture" and the 'war on women" I am beginning to feel like I might actually have a penis. I would be beyond pissed and mortified if someone stole nekkid pictures from me, but I would certainly not equate it to rape.

Nobody equated it to rape.  It IS part and parcel to a rape culture and what I mean by that is this would in no way be tolerated/accepted if we didn't live in a society that blamed the victims of sex crimes for everything they did "wrong." 

I heard a radio host this morning talking about how these women had "no right" to be upset because he had PERSONALLY seen their Vanity Fair (or whatever) spreads where you could see "almost all there was to see."  His cohost, somewhat to his credit, replied with "Well, 'almost all' is not the same as all" and the original host replied "Yeah, it kind of is."

So the reason that's part of rape culture is because TONS of people believe that a) these women were stupid to take the pics in the first place, and therefore somewhat to blame for the fact that they were available to hack, and b) shouldn't be upset about it anyway because they show a lot of skin in the course of their professions. 

This is not materially different from blaming a rape victim because she shouldn't have been in that area of town at night alone and she is always having one night stands anyway, so why is she so upset that a guy got the wrong message about her? 

That is rape culture.  It's not hard to understand, but a lot of people just refuse to accept it. 

[Peace Of Mind]

As I understand it:  Rape culture = a violation sexual in nature.  That would include nude photos that were not meant for entertainment purposes or other people to view such as Playboy, etc.

[Miss Tequila]

Sept 2, 2014 15:38:51 GMT -5 ken a.k.a OMK said:

Taking anything that isn't yours is a crime. In this case hacking into the cloud or what ever is stealing private property, whether it be pictures or bank accounts.

I totally agree with that.  Stealing her pictures IS a crime. But it isn't rape or a rape culture (IMHO)

[Firebird]

As I understand it: Rape culture = a violation sexual in nature. That would include nude photos that were not meant for entertainment purposes or other people to view such as Playboy, etc.

That's part of it.  What rape culture means to me is a society that tolerates sex crimes and blames victims for them. 

In other words, a society where it's okay to say something like "If she had just used her common sense and not had so much to drink, this wouldn't have happened to her."  Or (in this context), "If she just hadn't taken those photos in the first place, this wouldn't have happened to her." 

Focusing on what the victim did "wrong" instead of the CRIMINAL who committed the actual crime is what it means to live in a rape culture.  And it's f'ing serious because this kind of attitude allows rapists and other sex offenders to go free, quite apart from the way it tears apart victims and makes them second guess their decisions basically forever. 

[Firebird]

I totally agree with that. Stealing her pictures IS a crime. But it isn't rape or a rape culture (IMHO)

No one is calling this rape.  The point is that they were violated in a sexual manner and it's largely acceptable to society BECAUSE of rape culture.  Certain forms of sexual harassment and even assault aren't always physical. 

[Green Eyed Lady]

Sept 2, 2014 15:45:44 GMT -5 Firebird said:

As I understand it: Rape culture = a violation sexual in nature. That would include nude photos that were not meant for entertainment purposes or other people to view such as Playboy, etc.

That's part of it.  What rape culture means to me is a society that tolerates sex crimes and blames victims for them. 

In other words, a society where it's okay to say something like "If she had just used her common sense and not had so much to drink, this wouldn't have happened to her."  Or (in this context), "If she just hadn't taken those photos in the first place, this wouldn't have happened to her." 

Focusing on what the victim did "wrong" instead of the CRIMINAL who committed the actual crime is what it means to live in a rape culture.  And it's f'ing serious because this kind of attitude allows rapists and other sex offenders to go free, quite apart from the way it tears apart victims and makes them second guess their decisions basically forever. 

I understand what you are saying and I absolutely agree.  I disagree, however, that pointing out that someone did something they shouldn't have done is blaming the victim.  You and I have discussed this before and we don't agree. 

"If she just hadn't taken those photos in the first place, this wouldn't have happened to her."

Thing is?  That is absolutely true.  You can't count on others in this world to do the right thing.  Speaking out and warning people of the very real dangers of doing things that aren't smart is as vital to the protection of those people as incarcerating the criminal.  I know that you have an problem with this because you see it as victim blaming and I absolutely see where you are coming from.  I just don't agree.  Your heart is in the right place.  Unfortunately, other hearts are not.  I know who I blame.  I blame the person who committed the offense.  That's it.  That's all there is to it.  Telling people to be careful does not change that.

[Miss Tequila]

Sept 2, 2014 15:49:04 GMT -5 Firebird said:

I totally agree with that. Stealing her pictures IS a crime. But it isn't rape or a rape culture (IMHO)

No one is calling this rape.  The point is that they were violated in a sexual manner and it's largely acceptable to society BECAUSE of rape culture.  Certain forms of sexual harassment and even assault aren't always physical. 

It isn't largely acceptable to society...most of us are saying that it was a crime. I do think all people and especially celebrities, need to think about what they do. I drill that into my daughters head all of the time. If I take my white ass to the middle of a DC ghetto I am putting myself in harm's way.  If I got shot or mugged the perpetrator would still be responsible for his actions...but I also put myself in harm's way for going there in the first place.  Celebrities know that there are people out there who either want the fame of "getting" something on them...or the money for selling whatever they got. So while I don't think the victim is to blame, I do think she used poor judgment.

  Everytime I plug my phone in to charge, everything on my phone backs up to the cloud...I don't know where the cloud is or how it actually works, but I know enough to not keep anything on my phone that I wouldn't want someone else to see. We were actually specifically warned about that at my old company.  Not dirty pictures but client sensitive data that would come through on our phones and to remove everything immediately in case it was stolen and to never back up sensitive data to the cloud because it wasn't secure.  If my firm didn't want client's data on the cloud because it wasn't secure, I sure as shit wouldn't want naked pictures of me on it!

[Green Eyed Lady]

In an ideal world, we should as adults, be able to do what we wish (long as it is legal and consensual) without suffering untoward consequences. Unfortunately, this isn't an ideal world and no amount of wishing it could be is going to help.  What will help is education.  This is an excellent time to warn people of the dangers of doing something like this.  

If I had a daughter, I would absolutely warn her against doing something like this.  That does not mean I'd blame her if she did and her pictures were splashed all over the internet.  What is means is that an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. 

[Firebird]

"If she just hadn't taken those photos in the first place, this wouldn't have happened to her."

Thing is? That is absolutely true.

It's also "absolutely true" that if you hadn't been on your way to work when the drunk driver slammed into you, then you wouldn't have been hit.  Yet somehow when a person gets rammed by a drunk driver no one ever points out the myriad number of things they could have done to avoid the accident.  It's accepted that the drunk driver was at fault for drinking and driving - you were not at fault for being on the road at the time.

With no other type of crime is victim blaming as prevalent as sex crimes.  No other crimes are probed so heavily for things the victim did wrong. 

[Miss Tequila]

Sept 2, 2014 16:12:38 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

In an ideal world, we should as adults, be able to do what we wish (long as it is legal and consensual) without suffering untoward consequences. Unfortunately, this isn't an ideal world and no amount of wishing it could be is going to help.  What will help is education.  This is an excellent time to warn people of the dangers of doing something like this.  

If I had a daughter, I would absolutely warn her against doing something like this.  That does not mean I'd blame her if she did and her pictures were splashed all over the internet.  What is means is that an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. 

I agree. For most people this will never be an issue. While I don't take naked pictures (and if I did I wouldn't be dumb enough to put my face in them!) I do think a lot of people do. And that is fine if that is what you want to do. But the minute that picture is out there (email, text, cloud, etc) just know that anyone can get to it if they really want to. Again, for most of us that probably isn't a huge risk. A bigger risk is the recipient of said pictures getting pissed off and using the nekkid's to hurt them.

[Firebird]

Since I don't have time to further debate this, I'll share my opinion via what I've already written on this subject:

worldbeyondrapeculture.org/2013/12/10/you-have-to-take-responsibility-for-yourself-part-i/

worldbeyondrapeculture.org/2013/12/11/you-must-take-responsibility-for-yourself-part-ii/

The subject of that article was not drinking to excess but the point is largely the same. 

I wrote a number of articles about rape culture on that blog - I'll probably write more in the future - but that one in particular summarizes why focusing on victim behavior doesn't prevent future attacks and does active harm to existing victims.

[Miss Tequila]

Sept 2, 2014 16:15:32 GMT -5 Firebird said:

"If she just hadn't taken those photos in the first place, this wouldn't have happened to her."

Thing is? That is absolutely true.

It's also "absolutely true" that if you hadn't been on your way to work when the drunk driver slammed into you, then you wouldn't have been hit.  Yet somehow when a person gets rammed by a drunk driver no one ever points out the myriad number of things they could have done to avoid the accident.  It's accepted that the drunk driver was at fault for drinking and driving - you were not at fault for being on the road at the time.

With no other type of crime is victim blaming as prevalent as sex crimes.  No other crimes are probed so heavily for things the victim did wrong. 

I disagree. If my white ass is shot in the middle of the ghetto at 3 am don't tell me people aren't going to be all "what the hell was she doing there at that time" because that is exactly what I would be thinking.

[Firebird]

I didn't say people NEVER blamed victims of other crimes, Tina - just that victim blaming is many orders of magnitude MORE prevalent when it comes to sex crimes.

Rarely does a sex crime happen without everyone automatically, completely probing the victim's behavior at the expense of probing the criminal's behavior. 

[Miss Tequila]

Sept 2, 2014 16:20:38 GMT -5 Firebird said:

I didn't say people NEVER blamed victims of other crimes, Tina - just that victim blaming is many orders of magnitude MORE prevalent when it comes to sex crimes.

Rarely does a sex crime happen without everyone automatically, completely probing the victim's behavior at the expense of probing the criminal's behavior. 

This is obviously a personal subject for you.  I will just agree to disagree.

[Green Eyed Lady]

Sept 2, 2014 16:15:32 GMT -5 Firebird said:

"If she just hadn't taken those photos in the first place, this wouldn't have happened to her."

Thing is? That is absolutely true.

It's also "absolutely true" that if you hadn't been on your way to work when the drunk driver slammed into you, then you wouldn't have been hit.  Yet somehow when a person gets rammed by a drunk driver no one ever points out the myriad number of things they could have done to avoid the accident.  It's accepted that the drunk driver was at fault for drinking and driving - you were not at fault for being on the road at the time.

With no other type of crime is victim blaming as prevalent as sex crimes.  No other crimes are probed so heavily for things the victim did wrong. 

Fully agree.  Again...I wasn't saying she/he did anything wrong.  Simply that's it true that if the pictures weren't there, they couldn't have posted them.

It's a risks vs benefits thing again.  The benefits of driving to work outweigh the risks.  If a drunk driver hits me, it's still all his fault.  100% agree.  I don't have to risk having nude photos taken.  The benefits DONT outweigh the risks.  But if I do and they are posted, I'm still not to blame.