Self defense and pregnant burglar killed- two victims?

[EVT1]

I am real curious how people are going to react to this one:

         Greer told KNBC-TV he shot Miller twice in the back as she ran away.

      "She says, 'Don't shoot me, I'm pregnant — I'm going to have a baby,' and I shot her anyway," Greer said in the interview Wednesday.

      The surviving suspect, Gus Adams, 26, was arrested Wednesday on suspicion of residential burglary and murder, McDonnell said. The murder charge is possible because he is accused of being involved in a felony that led to a death, the chief said. Police did not know if he has hired an attorney.

      Both Miller and Adams were unarmed, McDonnell said.

www.cbsnews.com/news/cops-calif-man-80-fatally-shot-pregnant-home-intruder/

I am pretty sure shooting someone in the back while they are fleeing wipes out a self-defense claim- so would it be one murder or two if it turns out that she was in fact pregnant?

 

[EVT1]

www.wptv.com/news/national/tom-greer-california-homeowner-has-no-regrets-after-shooting-and-killing-pregnant-intruder

     But Greer says he managed to get his .22 caliber Smith and Wesson revolver. He says when that unarmed couple saw his gun they took off out the back door and he followed. "The lady didn't run as fast as the man so I shot her in the back twice. She's dead... but he got away"

Well here we go, looks like hero or murderer split down the usual lines.  He's screwed by his own admissions.

[ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ]

Your links aren't working - maybe mine will.

It's one more reason (IMO) for more gun control - this was a senior citizen - probably fired his weapon recklessly - instead of calling 9-1-1 or letting them take whatever they were after and then contacting authorities. Now there's one life (maybe 2) dead.

More reason for gun-control. (I'm pro-gun just not pro-trigger-happy).

www.nbclosangeles.com/news/local/Press-Conference-Scheduled-About-Man-Who-Shot-Intruder-Who-Said-She-Was-Pregnant-268507272.html

[Jaguar]

His links are fine SL, it's your browser.

[Opti]

I'll read the link later, but my first instinct is - if you go rob a house and think you should

be safe to do so because you are pregnant, perhaps you deserve to be wrong.

They all could have acted better, the robbers by not coming to the house at all and

likely the home-owner acting in anger. Perhaps this will convince some would be pregnant

robbers to do something else instead and care more about the life to be than stealing from others.

[justme]

It probably depends on how far along she was and what state she was in. I think some states count it as two no matter what, others only after the fetus has reached viability (so around 25 weeks), and others don't count it as murder unless the child has taken a breath.

[djAdvocate]

if it goes like the case in California, he should be eligible for the Death Penalty.  maybe we can hire Richard to shoot him in the back.

[chiver78]

I saw a clip of an interview with him, and he said she was unarmed and running away, but he shot her anyway. I don't see how that's self defense, even in FL (which it's not)

[jkapp]

Jul 25, 2014 1:57:48 GMT -5 ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ said:

Your links aren't working - maybe mine will.

It's one more reason (IMO) for more gun control - this was a senior citizen - probably fired his weapon recklessly - instead of calling 9-1-1 or letting them take whatever they were after and then contacting authorities. Now there's one life (maybe 2) dead.

More reason for gun-control. (I'm pro-gun just not pro-trigger-happy).

www.nbclosangeles.com/news/local/Press-Conference-Scheduled-About-Man-Who-Shot-Intruder-Who-Said-She-Was-Pregnant-268507272.html

If people were already in his house, its pretty much too late for the police to be any help, wouldn't you agree?  Not that they would really be any help in either case, IMHO.  Police are relaly great cleaning up AFTER a crime/murder - not so much good at actually preventing anything from happening.

But the shooting in the back as she is running away, for me I would want to know how far she had run (had she just turned around or had she already fled several yards by that point?).

Either way, it is still only one murder in my opinion - it is the mother's fault for putting her baby in danger (after all, its just a FETUS, not a PERSON, right?)  The left can't just keep changing whether its a baby (life) or non-living fetus to fit their ideological circumstances - its one or the other and keep it consistent...

[The Captain]

Jul 25, 2014 0:37:45 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

I am real curious how people are going to react to this one:

         Greer told KNBC-TV he shot Miller twice in the back as she ran away.

      "She says, 'Don't shoot me, I'm pregnant — I'm going to have a baby,' and I shot her anyway," Greer said in the interview Wednesday.

      The surviving suspect, Gus Adams, 26, was arrested Wednesday on suspicion of residential burglary and murder, McDonnell said. The murder charge is possible because he is accused of being involved in a felony that led to a death, the chief said. Police did not know if he has hired an attorney.

      Both Miller and Adams were unarmed, McDonnell said.

www.cbsnews.com/news/cops-calif-man-80-fatally-shot-pregnant-home-intruder/

I am pretty sure shooting someone in the back while they are fleeing wipes out a self-defense claim- so would it be one murder or two if it turns out that she was in fact pregnant?

 

The article you linked to did not provide some information I read in another article.

abc7.com/news/long-beach-man-shoots-burglar-who-said-she-was-pregnant/218017/

They beat him, broke his collarbone, and this was the fourth documented (with a fifth unreported) break in to his home. 

Let's see - he had reason to believe these were the same people who broke in previously.
They Both (the man and woman) beat him until they though he could not get up.

I have ever reason to believe he was in ongoing fear of his life/safety (his neighbors even commented on his growing frustration with the situation).

"He is a nice old man. I remember the first break-in, they literally tore down the front door," neighbor George Romero said.

You know what, if someone broke into my home, threw me to the ground and beat me until they thought I wasn't a threat, you better believe I would be in fear of my safety.  The fact their back is to me as they are running from me at this moment does not mean they can't come back (as they apparently did).

Self defense.  Especially when it's one 80yo vs two 20 somethings.

[Tennesseer]

Jul 25, 2014 9:11:50 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

if it goes like the case in California, he should be eligible for the Death Penalty.  maybe we can hire Richard to shoot him in the back.

I can only imagine how much joy RichardinTN would receive if he was the executioner of Richard Crafts for the death of his wife, Helle Crafts.  Unfortunately, Richard Crafts was sentenced to fifty years in prison.

[The Captain]

Jul 25, 2014 9:14:08 GMT -5 chiver78 said:

I saw a clip of an interview with him, and he said she was unarmed and running away, but he shot her anyway. I don't see how that's self defense, even in FL (which it's not)

It was the fourth break in at his home and they beat him to the ground and broke his collarbone. 

If you were in his shoes would you give them a chance to come back and "finish" the job?

I wouldn't.

[chiver78]

Jul 25, 2014 9:22:42 GMT -5 The Captain said:

Jul 25, 2014 9:14:08 GMT -5 chiver78 said:

I saw a clip of an interview with him, and he said she was unarmed and running away, but he shot her anyway. I don't see how that's self defense, even in FL (which it's not)

It was the fourth break in at his home and they beat him to the ground and broke his collarbone. 

If you were in his shoes would you give them a chance to come back and "finish" the job?

I wouldn't.

what I would likely do in his shoes, and what is allowed by law aren't necessarily the same thing.

I didn't say earlier, but I haven't read the links. was just commenting on the interview clip I saw this morning. didn't realize this wasn't the first break-in

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

It depends on state law if he'd be tried for two murders or not.

I have a hard time drumming up sympathy for the pregnant criminal. Pregnancy doesn't give you a free pass to rob someone. You choose to break into someone's home then you take on the same risks as every other stupid criminal out there.

I feel bad for the unborn child, it didn't get to pick it's mother. SHE is the one who put the baby at risk with her actions. She could have just as easily NOT broken into someone else's home.

Whether this counts as self defense, IDK. That's up for a jury to decide, there isn't enough info in the article for me to play armchair jury.

[jkapp]

Jul 25, 2014 9:21:02 GMT -5 The Captain said:

Jul 25, 2014 0:37:45 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

I am real curious how people are going to react to this one:

         Greer told KNBC-TV he shot Miller twice in the back as she ran away.

      "She says, 'Don't shoot me, I'm pregnant — I'm going to have a baby,' and I shot her anyway," Greer said in the interview Wednesday.

      The surviving suspect, Gus Adams, 26, was arrested Wednesday on suspicion of residential burglary and murder, McDonnell said. The murder charge is possible because he is accused of being involved in a felony that led to a death, the chief said. Police did not know if he has hired an attorney.

      Both Miller and Adams were unarmed, McDonnell said.

www.cbsnews.com/news/cops-calif-man-80-fatally-shot-pregnant-home-intruder/

I am pretty sure shooting someone in the back while they are fleeing wipes out a self-defense claim- so would it be one murder or two if it turns out that she was in fact pregnant?

 

The article you linked to did not provide some information I read in another article.

abc7.com/news/long-beach-man-shoots-burglar-who-said-she-was-pregnant/218017/

They beat him, broke his collarbone, and this was the fourth documented (with a fifth unreported) break in to his home. 

Let's see - he had reason to believe these were the same people who broke in previously.
They Both (the man and woman) beat him until they though he could not get up.

I have ever reason to believe he was in ongoing fear of his life/safety (his neighbors even commented on his growing frustration with the situation).

"He is a nice old man. I remember the first break-in, they literally tore down the front door," neighbor George Romero said.

You know what, if someone broke into my home, threw me to the ground and beat me until they thought I wasn't a threat, you better believe I would be in fear of my safety.  The fact their back is to me as they are running from me at this moment does not mean they can't come back (as they apparently did).

Self defense.  Especially when it's one 80yo vs two 20 somethings.

That does definitely put a different take on it, and i could see a jury finding him innocent of any wrongdoing. Multiple break-ins with severe assault involved...he was trying to prevent future assaults.  That is self-defense - and also proves my point of the police not being able to help.

[Deleted]

I don't know about the law, but I know that I wouldn't charge him. "Don't shoot me, I'm pregnant"? How about "Don't beat me, I'm 80"? I had mixed feelings until I read about the previous break ins and beating. Not mixed anymore.

[Opti]

That does definitely put a different take on it, and i could see a jury finding him innocent of any wrongdoing. Multiple break-ins with severe assault involved...he was trying to prevent future assaults. That is self-defense - and also proves my point of the police not being able to help.

And would explain the reason some see it as heroic.

[reader79]

I didn't read that he (the homeowner) was being charged with murder, but that the other burglar was. Because yes, this could have all been prevented had they just stayed away.

[jkapp]

>>"They jump on him, as he describes, and they beat him with fists, and then throw him, body slam him, basically, on to the floor," McDonnell said.

The female continued to strike him, while the male suspect walked over to Greer's safe, attempting to break into it. <<

Yes, what an lovely young woman she was (and she was 28 yrs old for Christ's sake!  That is too old to be pulling shit like this!)


>>Investigators are looking into a statement that Greer told the media, that the woman pleaded not to shoot her because she was pregnant. Miller was not visibly pregnant, the L.A. County Coroner's Office will determine whether or not she was pregnant. <<


She may not even have been pregnant...she might have just said that to the old man so he wouldn't shoot her. 

[djAdvocate]

Jul 25, 2014 9:33:01 GMT -5 jkapp said:

Jul 25, 2014 9:21:02 GMT -5 The Captain said:

The article you linked to did not provide some information I read in another article.

abc7.com/news/long-beach-man-shoots-burglar-who-said-she-was-pregnant/218017/

They beat him, broke his collarbone, and this was the fourth documented (with a fifth unreported) break in to his home. 

Let's see - he had reason to believe these were the same people who broke in previously.
They Both (the man and woman) beat him until they though he could not get up.

I have ever reason to believe he was in ongoing fear of his life/safety (his neighbors even commented on his growing frustration with the situation).

"He is a nice old man. I remember the first break-in, they literally tore down the front door," neighbor George Romero said.

You know what, if someone broke into my home, threw me to the ground and beat me until they thought I wasn't a threat, you better believe I would be in fear of my safety.  The fact their back is to me as they are running from me at this moment does not mean they can't come back (as they apparently did).

Self defense.  Especially when it's one 80yo vs two 20 somethings.

That does definitely put a different take on it, and i could see a jury finding him innocent of any wrongdoing. Multiple break-ins with severe assault involved...he was trying to prevent future assaults.  That is self-defense - and also proves my point of the police not being able to help.

i know you won't buy it, but his trauma actually has nothing to do with the case.

[jkapp]

Jul 25, 2014 9:41:42 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Jul 25, 2014 9:33:01 GMT -5 jkapp said:

That does definitely put a different take on it, and i could see a jury finding him innocent of any wrongdoing. Multiple break-ins with severe assault involved...he was trying to prevent future assaults.  That is self-defense - and also proves my point of the police not being able to help.

i know you won't buy it, but his trauma actually has nothing to do with the case.

Well there's no case against him at all (yet).  But I could see a jury finding him innocent if there ever is.

[The Captain]

Jul 25, 2014 9:25:54 GMT -5 chiver78 said:

Jul 25, 2014 9:22:42 GMT -5 The Captain said:

It was the fourth break in at his home and they beat him to the ground and broke his collarbone. 

If you were in his shoes would you give them a chance to come back and "finish" the job?

I wouldn't.

what I would likely do in his shoes, and what is allowed by law aren't necessarily the same thing.

I didn't say earlier, but I haven't read the links. was just commenting on the interview clip I saw this morning. didn't realize this wasn't the first break-in

I understand what you're saying and it illustrates (once again) one of my problems with "news reporting" in this country.  It's no longer about presenting the facts, it's about trying to sensationalize things and generate ratings.

It's amazing how some editing can change the slant of a story entirely.

[Virgil Showlion]

Jul 25, 2014 9:22:42 GMT -5 The Captain said:

Jul 25, 2014 9:14:08 GMT -5 chiver78 said:

I saw a clip of an interview with him, and he said she was unarmed and running away, but he shot her anyway. I don't see how that's self defense, even in FL (which it's not)

It was the fourth break in at his home and they beat him to the ground and broke his collarbone. 

If you were in his shoes would you give them a chance to come back and "finish" the job?

I wouldn't.

I have to say: if it was the fourth break-in...


At least there won't be a fifth.

[Deleted]

Oopsie, the whole story got out. Heads will roll in the editing department. Maybe not, they're already working on the next half story and commercial time is selling like crazy !

[Sam_2.0]

Jul 25, 2014 11:27:34 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Jul 25, 2014 9:22:42 GMT -5 The Captain said:

It was the fourth break in at his home and they beat him to the ground and broke his collarbone. 

If you were in his shoes would you give them a chance to come back and "finish" the job?

I wouldn't.

I have to say: if it was the fourth break-in...


At least there won't be a fifth.

How do we know? Unless these were the same ones that broke in each time. Sounds like he really needs to move or get a better security system.

[djAdvocate]

Jul 25, 2014 9:44:17 GMT -5 jkapp said:

Jul 25, 2014 9:41:42 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

i know you won't buy it, but his trauma actually has nothing to do with the case.

Well there's no case against him at all (yet).  But I could see a jury finding him innocent if there ever is.

then i would say that would be a very biased jury, unless he enters an insanity plea.

[Virgil Showlion]

Jul 25, 2014 13:14:42 GMT -5 Sam_2.0 said:

Jul 25, 2014 11:27:34 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

I have to say: if it was the fourth break-in...


At least there won't be a fifth.

How do we know? Unless these were the same ones that broke in each time. Sounds like he really needs to move or get a better security system.

Sounds like he needs to blow somebody away so he doesn't have to move.

[Sum Dum Gai]

I don't know how to feel about this case.  Legally, he probably shouldn't have fired his weapon.  Shooting a fleeing person in the back is a pretty gray area.  Some states specifically allow it, or used to anyway, as long as the shooting was still on his property, and only in specific cases.  Assault may be one, but it might only be armed assault.

On a personal level I totally understand why he did it.  He's been robbed multiple times already.  The people who did it are scum that beat an old man.  I can't really say I'm sorry that one of them is dead.

Even if you think the old guy was clearly in the wrong, would you really want your local prosecutor to pursue the case?  Bunch of tax dollars wasted on the case and keeping the old guy in prison, and he's going to die in a few years anyway.  Even if he was in the wrong in this particular instance, he doesn't sound like a danger to society.  He's only trigger happy after somebody breaks into his house and beats the shit out of him.

[Deleted]

If they were out of his home, AND running away... That's no longer covered by either "Self Defense" OR "Castle Doctrine". The old guy is boned. That's manslaughter at the very least.

As to the baby... the pregnant "Mother" KNOWINGLY brought the child to the crime scene, to commit a crime, so even though she can't be punished for it (she's dead), the culpability rests with her.


That's how I see it anyway.


ETA: I see there actually wasn't a pregnancy involved... so ignore my second paragraph, as it relates to THIS incident... but I would feel the same way if pregnant woman got killed while in the commission of a crime... including fleeing from it.

[EVT1]

Well- turns out she was not pregnant- just trying not to get shot- but you have to admit that being on notice that it might be the case and still firing at her as she is running down the alley is not really self-defense at that point- it is a pissed off homeowner- watch the video- he was glad he did it.

Previous burglaries are irrelevant to whether the man was defending himself or not anyway, so is age under these circumstances.

My take is he has to be prosecuted to avoid setting a precedent that it is ok to chase people down and shoot them.  Had he blasted them in his house it would be no issue at all.