NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jul 15, 2014 10:33:30 GMT -5
I find it helpful to read out loud what I just wrote, complete with pausing for punctuation. If it sounds awkward I re-write it. I find that really helps when I get "comma happy". That drove my senior English teacher up a wall, she'd really get on your case if she found excess commas in your papers.
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Cookies Galore
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Post by Cookies Galore on Jul 15, 2014 10:34:51 GMT -5
There is a program in Jackson, Florida, that, right now, has a partnership with blah blah blah.". I didn't know to use a comma before the word "that
You don't. Someone got a little comma happy. My senior English teacher would have stabbed her with a pen after reading the above.
Same with the dashes, it reads really awkwardly. It makes me want to punch the writer.
I really liked the dashes she used in the second example. It seemed to put extra emphasis on an important point I was trying to make ."MSN would not be required to do anything different -or extra- for members enrolled in the bonus program.". These weren't the exact words from the email. I tried to recreate something similar (for privacy reasons). My co-worker has a degree in English and she was an editor for a few years. I was really happy with the edited email before I started this thread. Now that it has been pointed out how awkward the first example was, I feel embarrassed that I wasn't able to come up with better wording, like what Sroo suggested - "The Jackson, Florida project currently has a partnership with blah blah blah". I will look into learning more about "active versus passive" and work on getting rid of bad habits (I use "that" exactly how mmhmm said it shouldn't be used). Thank you, everyone, for the help and feedback. That dash sentence was a good example of em dash use. So you have that!
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Cookies Galore
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Post by Cookies Galore on Jul 15, 2014 10:39:48 GMT -5
You actually would use a comma after city and state in a sentence, but it's just a poorly worded sentence. It's not a comma before "that" as much as a comma after "Florida." "I am from the Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, area." "Sue traveled to Akron, Ohio, and then Indiana." What about in Sroo's suggestion? "The Jackson, Florida project currently has a partnership with blah blah blah." Comma after Florida. :-) The dash and use of that in your original example of the Jackson sentence was awkward, so a rewrite is fine. The first sentence that used the em dash was fine.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2014 10:43:42 GMT -5
Technical writing requires some different guidelines than 'normal' grammar because it's more visual, incorporates drawing attention and moving eyes down a page, etc. That's where the dash thing comes in I think. Again fewer words help, and purpose is important.
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Cookies Galore
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Post by Cookies Galore on Jul 15, 2014 10:44:10 GMT -5
There a lot of good grammar and style guide web sites. Just like I google "how do you blank in excel?", I would recommend googling sentence structure questions to get a feel for things, as well as reading some books. Many of the suggested books were written by linguists who do a great job of explaining things. Much better to learn from someone who loves words than some boring textbook!
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Bonny
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Post by Bonny on Jul 15, 2014 11:31:39 GMT -5
Wrongside . . . #1 rule for commas is "When in doubt, leave it out." I wish I had thought that up, but I didn't. People tend to overuse commas in general.
What you are talking about when you say, "I want you to read it and hear it like I am saying it" is that you want your writing to have voice. That is the most difficult concept to teach in writing.
The best way to learn to write better is simply to write a lot. Do you keep a blog or online journal? It really will help. And you can practice on us!
Write a brief memo and ask for corrections. Practice (really does) make perfect.
ETA: I like the suggestion to read good literature. I was primarily self-taught until I took my Honors English Class. Learning another language is another great way to understand your own.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jul 15, 2014 11:44:08 GMT -5
... Practice (really does) make perfect. ... Practice makes permanent. If you practice poor techniques, you will perform poor techniques.
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ArchietheDragon
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Post by ArchietheDragon on Jul 15, 2014 11:50:27 GMT -5
Wrongside . . . #1 rule for commas is "When in doubt, leave it out." I wish I had thought that up, but I didn't. People tend to overuse commas in general.
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The rule should be "When in doubt leave it out."
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jul 15, 2014 14:19:49 GMT -5
I wish to add a general comment on something that I figured out a while back. I was lamenting about my lousy writing and then I realized something. Almost every thing that I read (except for stuff on this board of course) is written by professional writers. Most, if not all, of it goes through a professional editor. Books that I read go through multiple rewrites I am sure. The things that I write do not compare favorably to those writings. I thought, "Like, duh."
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2014 14:59:48 GMT -5
I'm looking over revisions to the email I mentioned earlier. Here are the things that I didn't know:
Include a dash when using "however" and then a comma. Example: "I'm not interested in signing up right now -however, blah blah blah." Another instance using dashes - "MSN would not be required to do anything different -or extra- for members enrolled in the bonus program.".
Also, more comma's needed to be added. Example: "There is a program in Jackson, Florida, that, right now, has a partnership with blah blah blah.". I didn't know to use a comma before the word "that".
These are the types of issues that I would like to work on.
I haven't read the other responses, but the first one needs a semi-colon before the however. It does not need a dash unless you are Jane Austen.
The second example is "ok," but a couple of things. Those are hypens, not dashes. A dash is typed as two hypens, which converts to a dash automatically. Hypens look wrong. The second comment is that I would rather use parentheses.
Third example, you do need a comma after Florida. You separate city from state and state from the rest of the sentence. I'd consider the commas around "right now" optional.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2014 15:02:45 GMT -5
Wrongside . . . #1 rule for commas is "When in doubt, leave it out." I wish I had thought that up, but I didn't. People tend to overuse commas in general.
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The rule should be "When in doubt leave it out." The rule is that you set off introductory phrases of four words or more. But you can also set them off to avoid confusion or for emphasis.
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ArchietheDragon
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Post by ArchietheDragon on Jul 15, 2014 15:04:49 GMT -5
The rule should be "When in doubt leave it out." The rule is that you set off introductory phrases of four words or more. But you can also set them off to avoid confusion or for emphasis. Maybe the rule should be "When, in, doubt, leave, it, out." For emphasis, of course.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2014 15:06:00 GMT -5
The rule is that you set off introductory phrases of four words or more. But you can also set them off to avoid confusion or for emphasis. Maybe the rule should be "When, in, doubt, leave, it, out." For emphasis, of course. Please don't make me get my purple pen out, Archie!
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Cookies Galore
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Post by Cookies Galore on Jul 15, 2014 15:13:59 GMT -5
I'm looking over revisions to the email I mentioned earlier. Here are the things that I didn't know:
Include a dash when using "however" and then a comma. Example: "I'm not interested in signing up right now -however, blah blah blah." Another instance using dashes - "MSN would not be required to do anything different -or extra- for members enrolled in the bonus program.".
Also, more comma's needed to be added. Example: "There is a program in Jackson, Florida, that, right now, has a partnership with blah blah blah.". I didn't know to use a comma before the word "that".
These are the types of issues that I would like to work on.
I haven't read the other responses, but the first one needs a semi-colon before the however. It does not need a dash unless you are Jane Austen.
The second example is "ok," but a couple of things. Those are hypens, not dashes. A dash is typed as two hypens, which converts to a dash automatically. Hypens look wrong. The second comment is that I would rather use parentheses.
Third example, you do need a comma after Florida. You separate city from state and state from the rest of the sentence. I'd consider the commas around "right now" optional.
Not important, but I did not point out the hyphen vs. dash because if she posted OP on her phone the phone does not have a dash key. I'm on my phone so I couldn't even make an en or em dash to make a prior point!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2014 15:20:47 GMT -5
I haven't read the other responses, but the first one needs a semi-colon before the however. It does not need a dash unless you are Jane Austen.
The second example is "ok," but a couple of things. Those are hypens, not dashes. A dash is typed as two hypens, which converts to a dash automatically. Hypens look wrong. The second comment is that I would rather use parentheses.
Third example, you do need a comma after Florida. You separate city from state and state from the rest of the sentence. I'd consider the commas around "right now" optional.
Not important, but I did not point out the hyphen vs. dash because if she posted OP on her phone the phone does not have a dash key. I'm on my phone so I couldn't even make an en or em dash to make a prior point! You are right that it isn't important. But I tell my kids to put double hypens in that case. I try to make certain that they know that the dash and hyphen aren't interchangeable.
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