djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 7, 2014 10:06:54 GMT -5
Ok, so whose ever side killed the three Israelis, bring them to justice. But that will never happen. I'm sorry the Israelis felt the need to do so. They worry too much about what the world thinks while the terrorists don't give a shit. Terrorists very much care what the world thinks of them. They wish the world to be in terror of them hoping to create a disproportionate reaction. Reasoned response keeps the focus where it should be, on criminals who commit crimes. not according to Pape. according to Pape, the proximate target for terrorism are democratic states who support "invading forces". in this case the target is Israel and their allies. (these particular) terrorists don't care about world opinion beyond that scope.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 7, 2014 10:08:27 GMT -5
Keep bombing the shit out of them until they produce the murderers or turn the whole area into a parking lot. even if you exterminated all of Hamas, it would not stop terrorism against Israel, any more than any other attempted genocide has worked in the past.
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Post by billisonboard on Jul 7, 2014 10:16:30 GMT -5
Terrorists very much care what the world thinks of them. They wish the world to be in terror of them hoping to create a disproportionate reaction. Reasoned response keeps the focus where it should be, on criminals who commit crimes. not according to Pape. according to Pape, the proximate target for terrorism are democratic states who support "invading forces". in this case the target is Israel and their allies. (these particular) terrorists don't care about world opinion beyond that scope. Thank you for that correction. You are spot on that terrorists are totally unconcerned with what indigenous tribal children in the Amazon rain forest think of them.
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Lizard King
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Post by Lizard King on Jul 7, 2014 12:58:04 GMT -5
dj, we've established your bias zur Judenfrage.
It's really not necessary to keep illustrating it. no, we have established that you don't know shit about me. but please, keep illustrating it. PS- the resort to calling everyone an anti-Semite who criticizes Israel is loathsome. for the record, i am married to a Jew, and my son is Jewish, not that it is any of your g-ddamned business. they are both highly critical of Israel, as well. edit: it is true that the vast majority of Jews support Israel, but it is far from monolithic- and there are very few that would spare them criticism. if you are one, shalom aleichem. may all your dreams be wonderful. The phrasing was inflammatory, I apologize.
Nevertheless, this isn't an open question for you - you have a fully-formed opinion on the matter. Bias doesn't have to be illegitimate bias. Neither did I suggest you were anti-Semitic: I suggested that "the Jewish question" - historically, what was to be done with the Jewish population, one answer to which was provided in 1947 by the United Nations - has an answer, as far as you're concerned, which is not the one preferred by Israeli authorities.
You are neither legitimized nor delegitimized in your view by any association with Jews or even with Israel. It's not at all necessary to be Jewish to be Zionist; it's not at all necessary to be Zionist to be an Israeli (and, as you point out, plenty of Zionists aren't Jews and plenty of Israelis, even Jewish Israelis aren't Zionists).
But to suggest that you haven't made your view of Israel and the legitimacy of its government's claims and actions crystal clear by this point is not accurate.
There are other views out there, which don't become less part of the universe of discourse because you don't share them. On the particular question of Israeli 'apartheid,' for example:
static.bicom.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/BICOM_Apartheid-Smear_FINAL.pdf
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Post by zibazinski on Jul 7, 2014 17:39:18 GMT -5
Sorry, I find that when called out for anti-semitism, someone comes up with a Jewish family member to be a unreal as someone who now volunteers for a food bank so knows everything.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 7, 2014 19:21:35 GMT -5
not according to Pape. according to Pape, the proximate target for terrorism are democratic states who support "invading forces". in this case the target is Israel and their allies. (these particular) terrorists don't care about world opinion beyond that scope. Thank you for that correction. You are spot on that terrorists are totally unconcerned with what indigenous tribal children in the Amazon rain forest think of them. they are also unconcerned with China, India, Africa and Western Nations that have no affiliation with Israel. that was my point. the world is a big place. terrorists are only concerned with opinion in the part of the world that impacts THEIR situation. you think that ISIS gives two shits about Norway? Spain? Poland? i doubt it. but thanks for trivializing it. i am so feeling the love.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 7, 2014 19:24:49 GMT -5
Sorry, I find that when called out for anti-semitism, someone comes up with a Jewish family member to be a unreal as someone who now volunteers for a food bank so knows everything. but that was not my point, at all. my point was this: there is a HUGE difference between being anti-Semitic and anti-Israel. unfortunately, very few Americans make that distinction. it is actually quite upsetting, as well as being simpleminded and inaccurate. please stop it. edit: "anti-Israel" is not actually a good description of my position. i am generally against the two state solution. i am against Israel lying about nuclear weapons. i am against the policy of settlements. i am against their civil war. i am against our tacit and military support for all of the above. but i have no problem whatsoever with the concept of a state called Israel where Jews live in peace with Muslims. they should work on that.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 7, 2014 19:30:01 GMT -5
i wasn't attempting to smear Israel. i was suggesting that their association with SA might have "shaped their thinking" on their wall project. you might take note of the fact that desi tacitly agreed with that assertion. i never said that Israel was an "apartheid state". what i rather asserted is that there are certain similarities between apartheid and the two state solution. is that obvious enough, or would you like me to enumerate them? edit: to be fair, we have our own apartheid look-alike here in the US: the reservation system. when Mandela toured the US, he mentioned it at every speaking engagement. i am betting some form or another exists MANY places.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 7, 2014 20:13:07 GMT -5
But to suggest that you haven't made your view of Israel and the legitimacy of its government's claims and actions crystal clear by this point is not accurate. yes it is. allow me to show you WHY it is not accurate using several examples. i spend a lot of time here criticizing the GOP. many here WRONGLY think that it is because i am a Democrat and i hate Republicans. that is not the case. i am a Republican that is DEEPLY TROUBLED by party politics. i want the party to become the place that i am PROUD to be. my feelings for Israel are quite similar. just because i am highly critical of MANY aspects of the government doesn't mean i side with the Palestinians or the terrorists: particularly when it comes to the right to exist. i don't. my feelings for the US are also quite similar. it doesn't make me anti-American. i am also highly critical of my friends who i see as ruining their lives through bad relationships with other people or substances. i find it quite disturbing that people think it is impossible to love and criticize something. hardly. imo, a love relationship requires a critical faculty and continual improvement through conflict and dialog. i can't remember the right term now. is it "dialectic"?
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jul 7, 2014 20:51:43 GMT -5
... but thanks for trivializing it. i am so feeling the love. Mutual
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 7, 2014 21:28:03 GMT -5
... but thanks for trivializing it. i am so feeling the love. Mutual why? you posited that the audience for terrorism was global. i posited that it was highly focused. how is that trivial? scaring Norway does ISIS no good. scaring the US might.
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Lizard King
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Post by Lizard King on Jul 8, 2014 10:50:29 GMT -5
But to suggest that you haven't made your view of Israel and the legitimacy of its government's claims and actions crystal clear by this point is not accurate. yes it is. allow me to show you WHY it is not accurate using several examples. i spend a lot of time here criticizing the GOP. many here WRONGLY think that it is because i am a Democrat and i hate Republicans. that is not the case. i am a Republican that is DEEPLY TROUBLED by party politics. i want the party to become the place that i am PROUD to be. my feelings for Israel are quite similar. just because i am highly critical of MANY aspects of the government doesn't mean i side with the Palestinians or the terrorists: particularly when it comes to the right to exist. i don't. my feelings for the US are also quite similar. it doesn't make me anti-American. i am also highly critical of my friends who i see as ruining their lives through bad relationships with other people or substances. i find it quite disturbing that people think it is impossible to love and criticize something. hardly. imo, a love relationship requires a critical faculty and continual improvement through conflict and dialog. i can't remember the right term now. is it "dialectic"? Ironically, that's the position I thought you'd staked out so clearly already.
Your view of Israel appears to be that, as constituted as a Jewish state in contradistinction to an Arab Palestinian state in a two-state scenario, it is illegitimate; that its government is, at best, misguided particularly in its conduct on the West Bank; and that it behaves oppressively toward Palestinians. Lots of people feel similarly, but not all people. It's possible to disagree with those positions without thereby caricaturing them, or becoming a caricature in turn.
It is indeed a dialectic.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 8, 2014 14:07:42 GMT -5
yes it is. allow me to show you WHY it is not accurate using several examples. i spend a lot of time here criticizing the GOP. many here WRONGLY think that it is because i am a Democrat and i hate Republicans. that is not the case. i am a Republican that is DEEPLY TROUBLED by party politics. i want the party to become the place that i am PROUD to be. my feelings for Israel are quite similar. just because i am highly critical of MANY aspects of the government doesn't mean i side with the Palestinians or the terrorists: particularly when it comes to the right to exist. i don't. my feelings for the US are also quite similar. it doesn't make me anti-American. i am also highly critical of my friends who i see as ruining their lives through bad relationships with other people or substances. i find it quite disturbing that people think it is impossible to love and criticize something. hardly. imo, a love relationship requires a critical faculty and continual improvement through conflict and dialog. i can't remember the right term now. is it "dialectic"? Ironically, that's the position I thought you'd staked out so clearly already.
Your view of Israel appears to be that, as constituted as a Jewish state in contradistinction to an Arab Palestinian state in a two-state scenario, it is illegitimate;
illigitimate is an interesting word. hadn't really considered it before. i don't think so, actually, because i think that the (many? most?) Arab Palestinians are fine with the two state solution. i just don't think it will go well for them. NOTE: i said that i was generally against it. i was trying to point out that this has happened many times in history, and it has generally worked out very poorly for those that were NOT in the position to dictate what territory is "given".
that its government is, at best, misguided particularly in its conduct on the West Bank; and that it behaves oppressively toward Palestinians.
again, i don't think i would use the word oppressively. unfairly would be the word i would choose. they demand things from their neighbors that they don't demand of themselves.
Lots of people feel similarly, but not all people. It's possible to disagree with those positions without thereby caricaturing them, or becoming a caricature in turn.
It is indeed a dialectic.
no attempt was made at caricature. if it APPEARED that i was, then it is EITHER because i lack the grace and skill required to make a more PC comparison, OR because i tend to describe things as they appear to me without respect to what others may or may not think of that description, OR both.
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Lizard King
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Post by Lizard King on Jul 8, 2014 14:18:11 GMT -5
To clarify, I wasn't suggesting that you had. I was suggesting that simply labeling the positions I was ascribing to you as "anti-Semitic" would be a caricature, and conversely that labeling opposition to those positions as accusing you of anti-Semitism would be in the same ballpark.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 8, 2014 16:53:32 GMT -5
To clarify, I wasn't suggesting that you had. I was suggesting that simply labeling the positions I was ascribing to you as "anti-Semitic" would be a caricature, and conversely that labeling opposition to those positions as accusing you of anti-Semitism would be in the same ballpark. sorry- when someone says to me that my thinking is in line with those that once espoused the idea of "the Jewish Problem", i automatically think of "the Final Solution". if that was a mistake on my part, it is certainly one i should be forgiven for. it is repeated often, both in the mainstream of public life, and in the synagogue, where "never forget" is also a frequent mantra. am i "over-sensitized" on this subject? you bet. our synagogue is guarded by police several days a year when some nutcase goes on a white supremacy shooting spree somewhere in the state or nation. people in our community are hyper-vigilant. and PC? Christians have no idea what PC is. even the subtlest of anti-Jewish overtones is admonished with anything ranging from a scolding to genuine rage and tears. so, no, dude. i was not "caricaturing" your post. i was merely expressing a well learned outrage. i will cut you as much slack for it as you cut me.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jul 8, 2014 17:05:29 GMT -5
No arrests made yet on Palestinian murderers, huh?
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Post by deziloooooo on Jul 8, 2014 22:37:52 GMT -5
No arrests made yet on Palestinian murderers, huh? If you mean the murderer of the three Jewish teens your correct...supposedly the authoritys know who are the suspects but so far not apprehended...As far as the murderer of the Palastinian...three people have been charged...not sure if they have confessed or are saying they are not the ones...the perps...
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Post by ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ on Jul 9, 2014 0:15:22 GMT -5
Is it really our problem though? YES, these incidents are tragic - but it's different countries, different cultures.
If they blow each other to smithereens and leave nothing but a wasteland (which many of these countries already are) is it up to us to get upset about it - or get involved?
Most of these acts of terrorism are based on religion - or political beliefs/fascism. I'm glad I live in a democracy.
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Jul 9, 2014 2:27:01 GMT -5
Is it really our problem though? YES, these incidents are tragic - but it's different countries, different cultures.
If they blow each other to smithereens and leave nothing but a wasteland (which many of these countries already are) is it up to us to get upset about it - or get involved?
Most of these acts of terrorism are based on religion - or political beliefs/fascism. I'm glad I live in a democracy. Amen to that...though at times with the rhetoric that comes from different aspects of our society one can get the impression that we are not that far away from similer events happening here...I am thinking too, in our recent events here that I have lived through..civil rights , racial riots..Kent State, anti war marches at times...even a few bombings of buildings in protest by some...
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Lizard King
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Post by Lizard King on Jul 9, 2014 8:16:06 GMT -5
Erm. I said this already. You have the most argumentative way of agreeing of anybody I know.
Nobody said you were an advocate of Endlosung. Nobody implied such a thing. It's hysterically hyperbolic to suggest anything of the sort, and the fact that your #81 does so is exactly the sort of thing I'm talking about.
What I said was that your bias on "the Jewish question" (a phrase that long predates Nazism, as you know) had been made clear. That was it. It has. You're not wishy-washy in your opinions. You can have that admirable trait without being a neo-Nazi, and nobody here believes you are one.
Sheesh.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2014 12:10:51 GMT -5
i don't know much about Bloomberg. my comment was about Soros. Bloomberg was funding MAIG (mayors against illegal guns) which has not been effective, it might not even exist anymore. I'm not sure. He is now funding a "moms against guns" movement which has gotten a moment or two of coverage on the liberal network media concerning the showboating of open carry in Texas. Since he's no longer mayor of New York, gun banning doesn't sell the commercials like his food restriction antics used to.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 9, 2014 14:01:29 GMT -5
Erm. I said this already. You have the most argumentative way of agreeing of anybody I know.
Nobody said you were an advocate of Endlosung. Nobody implied such a thing. It's hysterically hyperbolic to suggest anything of the sort, and the fact that your #81 does so is exactly the sort of thing I'm talking about.
really? let's have you address THIS then:
dj, we've established your bias zur Judenfrage.
this says that i have a "bias" about "the Jewish Problem/Question". this phraseology was used during the runup to the Holocaust. you know that, right? the "problem" had a solution. we all know what that was.
What I said was that your bias on "the Jewish question" (a phrase that long predates Nazism, as you know) had been made clear. That was it. It has. You're not wishy-washy in your opinions. You can have that admirable trait without being a neo-Nazi, and nobody here believes you are one.
Sheesh.
whatever, dude. we can leave it at this. when i see "zur Judenfrage", i automatically assume the association i have repeatedly made. i do so for very good reason, which i am neither going to explain or further mention. are we done? everyone has their hot buttons. congratulations for finding mine.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 9, 2014 14:02:14 GMT -5
i don't know much about Bloomberg. my comment was about Soros. Bloomberg was funding MAIG (mayors against illegal guns) which has not been effective, it might not even exist anymore. I'm not sure. He is now funding a "moms against guns" movement which has gotten a moment or two of coverage on the liberal network media concerning the showboating of open carry in Texas. Since he's no longer mayor of New York, gun banning doesn't sell the commercials like his food restriction antics used to. i guess i should have said that i don't know much, nor do i have any desire to know much, i guess.
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Post by Lizard King on Jul 9, 2014 14:05:09 GMT -5
The phrase was used in dispute between Bruno Bauer and Karl Marx, and marked a rift between the New Hegelians. It wasn't a Nazi invention, or even a German one. The "Jewish Question" vexed Ancient Rome.
I apologize that it was interpreted as implying something else. You're clearly very far from a Nationalist Socialist in all respects.
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 9, 2014 14:16:56 GMT -5
The phrase was used in dispute between Bruno Bauer and Karl Marx, and marked a rift between the New Hegelians. It wasn't a Nazi invention, or even a German one. The "Jewish Question" vexed Ancient Rome.
i never claimed that the Nazi's invented it. in fact, i have gone to considerable pains to say WHY i find it troublesome.
I apologize that it was interpreted as implying something else. You're clearly very far from a Nationalist Socialist in all respects.
you are really not getting it. it has nothing to do with me, Jim. nothing. i don't argue ad hominem. HERE is what i thought of when you said what you did: die Endlösung der Judenfragemy bias regarding Jews is way different than you would believe, or have others believe. this discussion is over. mmkay?
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Post by deziloooooo on Jul 10, 2014 2:37:39 GMT -5
The phrase was used in dispute between Bruno Bauer and Karl Marx, and marked a rift between the New Hegelians. It wasn't a Nazi invention, or even a German one. The "Jewish Question" vexed Ancient Rome.
i never claimed that the Nazi's invented it. in fact, i have gone to considerable pains to say WHY i find it troublesome.
I apologize that it was interpreted as implying something else. You're clearly very far from a Nationalist Socialist in all respects.
you are really not getting it. it has nothing to do with me, Jim. nothing. i don't argue ad hominem. HERE is what i thought of when you said what you did: die Endlösung der Judenfragemy bias regarding Jews is way different than you would believe, or have others believe. this discussion is over. mmkay? You have a bias against Jews dj? Mind letting me know what it is..I am most interested in that really...
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Post by mmhmm on Jul 10, 2014 8:19:18 GMT -5
you are really not getting it. it has nothing to do with me, Jim. nothing. i don't argue ad hominem. HERE is what i thought of when you said what you did: die Endlösung der Judenfragemy bias regarding Jews is way different than you would believe, or have others believe. this discussion is over. mmkay? You have a bias against Jews dj? Mind letting me know what it is..I am most interested in that really... Dj didn't say he has a bias against Jews, Dezi. Dj said he has a bias regarding Jews. There's a difference. A bias can be either negative or positive.
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Post by deziloooooo on Jul 10, 2014 9:16:06 GMT -5
You have a bias against Jews dj? Mind letting me know what it is..I am most interested in that really... Dj didn't say he has a bias against Jews, Dezi. Dj said he has a bias regarding Jews. There's a difference. A bias can be either negative or positive. Not wishing to go back and forth with you here mmhmm ...to me it's a play on words but ok , will change my request..
" You have a bias REGARDING Jews DJ? Mind letting me know what it is...I AM most interested in that , really...."
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Post by mmhmm on Jul 10, 2014 9:17:38 GMT -5
No, Dezi, it's not a "play on words". It's you putting words into someone else's posts - words that person didn't use.
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Post by deziloooooo on Jul 10, 2014 9:35:59 GMT -5
No, Dezi, it's not a "play on words". It's you putting words into someone else's posts - words that person didn't use. I feel it is a play on words..you don't...so we move on....I requested a explanation...whether there is one or not up to another....
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