ChiTownVenture
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Post by ChiTownVenture on Feb 27, 2011 22:17:59 GMT -5
Regarding the likelihood of shooting what you are shooting at. I recently made a post about sitting on an review board. Seven police officers with weapons drawn and at the ready, all of them within 20 feet during a hostage situation, shot and killed both hostage taker and the hostage. I understand the entire time, from start to finish was less than 5 seconds. 53 spent casings were picked up after the shooting. 28 rounds struck the hostage taker and 6 hit the hostage. That is, of the 53 rounds fired 24, (45%), of them missed the hostage taker. The whole idea of taking guns to school , , , I'm sure , , , is not to ever use them, but to discourage any would-be assailant from thinking the school is a pushover. Kind of like during the Cold War, the best defense was to be so well armed that using those arms was never required. And I recall going to school with our 22 caliber rifles and practicing for competition with other schools. Guns were just tools, and any fool who wanted to get himself killed could always threaten somebody with a gun and there would be somebody else to step up and oblige him. It was the liberal attitude that guns kill people that has brought us to this point. Heck, when was the last time you saw a cowboy outfit and cap pistols for sale at Christmas time? More than that, how many people today even know what a cap pistol looks like? As much as some conservatives would like you to believe gun control is not a partisan issue. There are supporters and dissenters on both sides of the isle. The Brady Bill passed with nonpartisan support. This is one issue that people vote with their beliefs not with the party line.
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Post by marjar on Feb 27, 2011 22:34:25 GMT -5
Under stress firing a weapon in a charged situation most times does not come out like people think. Just ask a training officer for a police department what the average is for hitting the intended human target by an officer who has fired thousands of rounds in training. You kill an innocent in a gun battle and that family owns you for life. There is no liability insurance that will cover you. Killing is easy, killing an innocent and having to live with it is quite another thing. Unless you are a sociopath. The mindset I was referring to. One can be excellent on the shooting range, but in a crisis situation one may panic and start shooting anything that moves, or freeze and become more of a target.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Feb 27, 2011 22:45:35 GMT -5
It was the liberal attitude that guns kill people that has brought us to this point. Heck, when was the last time you saw a cowboy outfit and cap pistols for sale at Christmas time? More than that, how many people today even know what a cap pistol looks like? How often are Western movies produced today? One last year- True Grit-when was the last memorable (or even unmemorable) one before True Grit- The Missing (2003)? And before that? Unforgiven (Clint Eastwood) in 1991. I don't recall a lot of Westerns in the 80s or 70s either. They seemed to have died out by the end of the 1960s with the The Wild Bunch. The fact is Western movies fell out of favor with most movie goers. And any Westerns being made today (and even The Missing and Unforgiven) are not suitable for children, those same children you would buy a cowboy outfit and cap pistol for Christmas.
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tyfighter3
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Post by tyfighter3 on Feb 27, 2011 22:52:16 GMT -5
The Wild Bunch, What a Movie.
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Feb 28, 2011 1:32:00 GMT -5
at 20/25 feet/...just aim for the middle, and squeeze, squeeze and pray. the middle won't drop them if they are strung out on drugs If ever faced with that, just make the shot hit, on the strung out..i'll take my chances.
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handyman2
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Post by handyman2 on Feb 28, 2011 12:35:14 GMT -5
Tough Times I totally agree. What we do not need is a large army of civilians walking around a campus armed to the teeth. A recipe for bad outcomes.
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fairlycrazy23
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Post by fairlycrazy23 on Feb 28, 2011 12:40:37 GMT -5
I think it would be ok to allow adults over 21 with the proper permit to carry on school property. It does seem like most mass shootings occur in gun free zones.
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Post by marjar on Feb 28, 2011 12:49:14 GMT -5
I think it would be ok to allow adults over 21 with the proper permit to carry on school property. It does seem like most mass shootings occur in gun free zones. Chronological age and emotional age don't always go hand in hand. There are plenty of immature 21 year olds, in addition to the mentally unstable ones.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Feb 28, 2011 13:06:14 GMT -5
Not to mention frontal lobe function has not been fully attained by the age of 21.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2011 13:12:17 GMT -5
I agree with crazy. The ones that have illegal guns are the ones with no training and no boundaries. LEGAL gun owners would level the playing field more. Just the thought that someone could shoot them back could stop some of the killing inflicted on innocents that have no way to fight back. The power people with illegal guns have is the knowledge that it is just like a carnival and they can pluck people off like the little duckies. They are wimps and cowards. Let them try their weapons against other people with weapons, not kids hiding under desks.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Feb 28, 2011 13:19:28 GMT -5
I agree with crazy. The ones that have illegal guns are the ones with no training and no boundaries. LEGAL gun owners would level the playing field more. Just the thought that someone could shoot them back could stop some of the killing inflicted on innocents that have no way to fight back. The power people with illegal guns have is the knowledge that it is just like a carnival and they can pluck people off like the little duckies. They are wimps and cowards. Let them try their weapons against other people with weapons, not kids hiding under desks. School shooters kill themselves after their dirty deed is done. I don't think they are going to be afraid of someone killing them.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2011 13:20:47 GMT -5
But someone could kill THEM before they kill a dozen defenseless kids.................
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handyman2
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Post by handyman2 on Feb 28, 2011 13:28:07 GMT -5
Just add security people. A lot cheaper than putting guns in the hands of kids. Do you realize the cost to the university if some student accidently shoots an innocent victum. Not good.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Feb 28, 2011 13:30:32 GMT -5
But someone could kill THEM before they kill a dozen defenseless kids................. That is assuming someone could get into the classroom (from down the hall, from another building) in time before the killer sprayed the students with an uzi. And it would be the shooting of the students already which would have attracted anyone's attention. Seeing we don't have a lot of mass schoolroom killings we really have no idea if someone legally carrying a gun could accomplish such a feat. Other than the two Arkansas boys who shot and killed 4 students and a teacher (injuring 10 others) walking out of the school building during an ambush (Westside Middle School massacre-the two boys were hiding in the woods,) no killer has ever been brought to justice because they immediately killed themselves.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2011 14:27:42 GMT -5
Whatever. Difference of opinion here. No shooter would know which class had an armed person in it. What do wimps do when faced with that?? Go elsewhere, or hopefully die quicker than they would have on their own-- with more students left standing..
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floridayankee
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Post by floridayankee on Feb 28, 2011 14:46:24 GMT -5
Tough Times I totally agree. What we do not need is a large army of civilians walking around a campus armed to the teeth. A recipe for bad outcomes. Let's think about this statement logically for a second, shall we? Carrying is already legal in most places and yet we do not have large armies of civilians walking around armed to the teeth. Why would a campus be any different? That are able to legally own a gun anyway. The "mentally unstable" will always remain an issue unless we require complete psyche exams from anyone purchasing a weapon.
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Feb 28, 2011 14:55:23 GMT -5
Whatever. Difference of opinion here. No shooter would know which class had an armed person in it. What do wimps do when faced with that?? Go elsewhere, or hopefully die quicker than they would have on their own-- with more students left standing.. I don't get the "wimps" suggestion..I do know they are very deranged people who are badly in need of Psychological help, and who's acts cause horrific hurt on individuals and their loved ones. How to stop them from carrying out these acts I haven't a clue. Possible with more armed citizens being around, the damage and loss of life might be cut down, though in some of them, I am thinking of the one in the Texas Tower years ago, no one with a hand gun was going to stop the slaughter, in fact armed civilians with long rifles came forward and entered into the battle with authority's, the shooter finally being shot dead by two police officers. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Whitman"glioblastoma, which is a highly aggressive brain tumor, was discovered during autopsy that experts on the "Connally Commission" concluded may have played a role in his actions. He was also affected by a court martial as a United States Marine, failings as a student at the University of Texas, ambitious personal expectations and psychotic features he expressed in his typewritten note left at 906 Jewell Street, Austin, Texas, dated both July 31, 1966 and later by hand "3 A.M., both dead August 1, 1966". Several months prior to the shootings, he was summoned to Lake Worth, Florida to pick up his mother who was filing for divorce from his father. The stress caused by the break-up of the family became a dominant discussion between Whitman and a psychiatrist at the University of Texas Health Center on March 29, 1966" I found this interesting, possible no one else. Texas is a great State, people are first rate, I lived there 11 years and can onlu say good things about the experience, but there are things about the State i have had , weel wuestions about. I guess one can say that about every locale but still... ---------------------------------------------- The University of Texas and the Commission's recommendations for aid to the injuredUpon completing all the information that the Commission had gathered, recommendations were made to aid the wounded and those affected by the events. Aid to survivors and the wounded were to include loans, University of Texas and the State of Texas agencies to temporarily assist those with medical and lingering mental issues and rehabilatation after the event. In respect to the recommendations made regarding the victims, they were never followed.[31] According to Esquire magazine, "There is no monument, plaque, or notice on the University of Texas campus about that day and the killings. Every few years, the matter comes up, and every few years no one can decide what, if anything, to do."[32] University of Texas "Memorial" GardenIn 2003, the University of Texas committed $200,000 and sought another $800,000 to redesign the "Memorial Garden" that was dedicated in recognition of the events on and around the campus on August 1, 1966. After years of neglecting to recognize the significance of the tragedy that day, by either public or private acknowledgment, the Memorial Garden was dedicated in 2006, forty years after the event, at an unknown cost and for minimal materials.[33] After years of planning and consulting, a bronze plaque, dedicated to all who were affected, was placed near the pond.[34] After the shooting, the Tower observation deck was closed for two years, reopening in 1968. After several suicides, it was closed again in 1974 and remained closed until September 15, 1999. Access to the tower is now tightly controlled through guided tours that are scheduled by appointment only, during which metal detectors and other security measures are in place. Repaired scars from bullets are still visible on the limestone walls. August 1, 2008 "Heroes Tower Building Dedication"On the 42nd anniversary of the tragedy, the following names were added to a Precinct Building in Austin, Texas and dedicated to the principal heroes who helped stop Whitman on August 1, 1966. The below-mentioned names on the plaque represent the individuals who were within the tower and directly affected the outcome, although it was recognized that the list is incomplete.[3]
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2011 15:02:47 GMT -5
You don't get WIMPS, Dez?? One definition of the word--Wimps are people that pick on defenseless people. Big men that beat the crap out of little women, etc. A punk with a gun on a campus that is gun free is a wimp. I am all for running his butt off by meeting fire with fire. Let him take his wimpy punkass behavior elsewhere-- better yet-- just shoot him and get it over with, so some liberal coffeeshop does not have to deal with him tomorrow.
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Feb 28, 2011 15:15:46 GMT -5
You don't get WIMPS, Dez?? One definition of the word--Wimps are people that pick on defenseless people. Big men that beat the crap out of little women, etc. A punk with a gun on a campus that is gun free is a wimp. I am all for running his butt off by meeting fire with fire. Let him take his wimpy punkass behavior elsewhere-- better yet-- just shoot him and get it over with, so some liberal coffeeshop does not have to deal with him tomorrow. ----------------------------------------- Suggest read the above about "Whitman"..that was as horrific a example as one can get...there was nothing wimpish about him...he was a very desturbed individual, had sought out help, after his death there were physical, medical problems that might have contributed to the event..and in many cases othe such might be the reasons these things happen. Your simplistic reactions just don't resonate with me..there is so much more to so many of these events and to paint them all simplistically with the same brush makes little sense to me.
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Post by marjar on Feb 28, 2011 16:13:29 GMT -5
Tough Times I totally agree. What we do not need is a large army of civilians walking around a campus armed to the teeth. A recipe for bad outcomes. Let's think about this statement logically for a second, shall we? Carrying is already legal in most places and yet we do not have large armies of civilians walking around armed to the teeth. Why would a campus be any different? That are able to legally own a gun anyway. The "mentally unstable" will always remain an issue unless we require complete psyche exams from anyone purchasing a weapon. College is a time of transition for kids moving toward adulthood and filled with angst.Homesickness, worrying about grades, dealing with roommates, romances going bad. Also, there is the ever present issue of drugs and alcohol. Quite the cauldron that may bubble over.
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Feb 28, 2011 16:18:28 GMT -5
It's my problem with carrying for all, though at one time I did, especially when I was a hiker, long over nights especially, and one time had in car...no longer though.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2011 16:19:11 GMT -5
Whitman, Dez?? I'm from TX and was there when he did this. I could care less what his mental or physical problems were. Would have been very nice if someone had shot his ass dead up in the tower after the first few shots, IMHO. But-- no one had a gun.
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steff
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Post by steff on Feb 28, 2011 16:37:33 GMT -5
Would have been very nice if someone had shot his ass dead up in the tower after the first few shots, IMHO. But-- no one had a gun
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there were plenty of guns.... there wasn't any available that were high powered enough to hit him where he was in the top of the tower.... the tower also gave him 1. amazing cover 2. the best vantage point 3. 360 degrees of firing ability on the campus. it took awhile to establish that there was only 1 shooter because the shots came from different directions..... reading up on Texas history can be your friend.... there were PLENTY of guns there....
Around 20 minutes later, once Whitman began facing return fire from the authorities and armed civilians who had brought out their personal firearms to assist police, he used the waterspouts on each side of the tower as gun ports, allowing him to continue shooting largely protected from the gunfire below but also greatly limiting his range of targets. Ramiro Martinez, an officer who participated in stopping Whitman's rampage, later stated that the civilian shooters should be credited as they made it difficult for him to take careful aim.[22] Police lieutenant Marion Lee reported from a small airplane that there was only a single sniper firing from the observation deck. The airplane circled the tower while Lee tried to shoot Whitman, but turbulence made it difficult for him to get a clear shot. The airplane, piloted by Jim Boutwell, was hit by Whitman's rifle fire but continued to circle the tower from a safe distance until the end of the incident.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2011 16:46:12 GMT -5
Would Whitman have even gone up in the tower not knowing if any of the people around him were armed? We will never know, will we? Last year a gunman and his gang went in to a Tucson auto restoration place to rob them. Turned out the owners were heavily armed. There were bodies all over the place. Dead bad guys.
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steff
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Post by steff on Feb 28, 2011 16:48:12 GMT -5
nice topic change instead admitting your info was wrong.... again, there were MANY guns there. MANY citizens took shots at the tower along with officers......
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steff
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Post by steff on Feb 28, 2011 16:49:00 GMT -5
oh and history will also tell you that Whitman had a massive brain tumor.... there's most likely no logic to what he did and the actions he took that day.....
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2011 16:56:59 GMT -5
I lived in Austin for years. The tower is real close to the main drag. Were the people on campus armed, or were the armed people from off campus? Maybe steff can answer about whether or not he walked through the campus secure in the knowledge that no one except the guards were armed. Crazy or not, brain tumor or not-- if you know your gun is the biggest because it is the only gun around-- that sure makes a nutjob grow several feet in his own opinion.
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steff
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Post by steff on Feb 28, 2011 17:01:06 GMT -5
maybe you can prove that he did it knowing that no one was armed..... or maybe you are just ASSuming it since it fits with your "have big gun I win" argument....
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Feb 28, 2011 17:11:49 GMT -5
Whitman, Dez?? I'm from TX and was there when he did this. I could care less what his mental or physical problems were. Would have been very nice if someone had shot his ass dead up in the tower after the first few shots, IMHO. But-- no one had a gun. If you read the whole Wicki...I doubt anyone would have been aware till to late...he was nuts/disturbed/sick but he had a plan, very well thought out, even to buying some Spam, the barricades, leaving notes, full explanations, not shooting when initially encounters were not threatening but once they were, through the locked gate.... You may not care what his mental state was and it sure would have been nice if some one...but they didn't Krickett.. I wonder what would have happened to him if he had been apprehended, after such a act but if what was found after his death and the potential conclusions..were found prior to his trial..we are talking Texas here...best it ended like this I think..
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2011 17:12:31 GMT -5
Let me use YOUR tactics...
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