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Post by marjar on Feb 27, 2011 12:32:08 GMT -5
PHOENIX — Along with the meaning of life and the origin of the universe, college students across the country have another existential question to ponder: the wisdom of allowing guns in class. In Arizona, known for its gun-friendly ways, state lawmakers are pushing three bills this year focused on arming professors and others over the age of 21 on Arizona campuses. Sponsors talk of how professors and students are now sitting ducks for the next deranged gunman to charge through the classroom door. Some gun rights advocates go so far as to say that grade school teachers ought to be armed as well, although even this state is not ready for that proposition. About a dozen legislatures nationwide, concerned about the potential for campus shootings, are considering arming their academies. Gun control advocates say Texas is probably the most likely to pass such a measure, with Arizona also in the mix. www.nytimes.com/2011/02/27/us/politics/27guns.html?hp
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Feb 27, 2011 12:57:34 GMT -5
Interesting...........
I'm all for gun rights, but there's much more to college than classes. I remember what college was like, and I really don't see the need for shitfaced people to be waiving guns around at fraternity parties...............
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Feb 27, 2011 13:03:07 GMT -5
LOL. And if you don't like the grade you received from your professor or grade school teacher, then simply take em out.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2011 13:09:50 GMT -5
People that are idiotic enough to get shitfaced and wave guns around at frat parties will do it no matter what the law is. I live in AZ and think this is a good idea. Seems like every few years college kids get killed by driveby shootings from the bad parts of town targeting the rich kids, last year we had a rapist on campus that got lots of girls before they caught him. Sure-- give the kids and teachers a way to fight back against the criminals. The campus in Tucson is SO liberal most of the kids will probably think guns are yucky, like they think of military, so most likely it will be responsible, more conservative kids that were raised around guns and know how to handle them that will possibly have guns. Imagine V Tech if someone had had a gun. I will hope for the best here.
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Post by marjar on Feb 27, 2011 13:13:17 GMT -5
LOL. And if you don't like the grade you received from your professor or grade school teacher, then simply take em out. If your boyfriend dumps you at a frat party.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Feb 27, 2011 13:22:20 GMT -5
Or the school cafeteria server won't give you extra mac & cheese. Take her out-hairnet and all.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2011 13:41:21 GMT -5
I'm more concerned about the POSSIBLE violence in hospitals and public buildings, really, also in the bill. Most GREEK kids just want to party. I've been a night time cab drivers for the last 10 years, working the university. I can't STAND frat boys and sorority girls, but they are pretty harmless.
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handyman2
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Post by handyman2 on Feb 27, 2011 13:57:36 GMT -5
I am a gun owner and a NRA member who supports gun ownership. However students bringing guns on campus or frat houses should be off limits. First on to days campuses being an area of such large groups you may not know who is a student and who is just an interloper that you have no record of or know who they are. Guns as someone else pointed out don't belong where there is large quantities of booze at frat parties or for that matter large crowds. I for one have a problem with the unrestricted policy of concealed carry. A recipe for unintended tragedy. That is one thing I disagree with my fellow NRA members about.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Feb 27, 2011 14:04:08 GMT -5
To me, this is a lousy idea. Kids just don't achieve impulse control until their mid-twenties. They might not like hearing it, but the course of development of the brain doesn't care much what they like. It's going to take its own sweet time. In the meantime, we don't need younguns with raging hormones and little impulse control running around with guns in their possession. Not a good idea, at all.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2011 14:07:52 GMT -5
How about teachers, and other adults on campus?
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Feb 27, 2011 14:37:29 GMT -5
I'd have less of a problem with teachers,etc. being armed; however, I'd feel the necessity to see that each who was armed had completed a gun safety course, a course in firing the weapon and hitting what one's aiming for, and a psychological evaluation. Low impulse control isn't exclusive to young folks, unfortunately. Some never develop it.
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Feb 27, 2011 14:40:28 GMT -5
I think it's a reaction against the events that have happened on campuses over the years, in fact not just campuses but places were people congregate, the Army base, the cafeteria in Texas.
I am not comfortable with any one carrying yet understand the fear and the reasoning. Regarding a college campus, the age has to be 21...if one is allowed to carry legally off the campus I guess there is not much difference on campus.
Would it stop some one from acting out...if the one carrying was there when it started , possible...hopefully actions taken with a handgun ..crowded confusing scene, adrenalin pumping....would not turn out worse then with out some one there..
High schools, there I wouldn't be against some teachers who wanted to carry, volunteer to be available, trained ...possible , though the first obligation would be to get the students to safety.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Feb 27, 2011 14:51:56 GMT -5
I can't STAND frat boys and sorority girls, but they are pretty harmless. I love you too.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2011 15:14:01 GMT -5
I don't really HATE them, it's just that I see them at their worst-- while they are partying. The boys are immature, drink too much and puke a lot, and the girls are slutty, snotty and real backbiting little witches that often pass out and have to be carried in. They don't tip, either, even when they keep you waiting 10 minutes, and make you stop 3 times so they can puke-- if you are LUCKY they make you stop instead of just puking out the window while moving or worse yet all over the cab..... I prefer dealing with the more studious kids, especially foreigners, but they don't really party. Indians (from India), Chinese, Japanese, and total nerds of all types are my fav college age customers.
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Post by marjar on Feb 27, 2011 16:04:42 GMT -5
I'd have less of a problem with teachers,etc. being armed; however, I'd feel the necessity to see that each who was armed had completed a gun safety course, a course in firing the weapon and hitting what one's aiming for, and a psychological evaluation. Low impulse control isn't exclusive to young folks, unfortunately. Some never develop it. I think it takes a certain mindset, beyond maturity, to act with good judgment and decisiveness in a situation such as the implied cases. Some folks will never achieve that mindset.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Feb 27, 2011 17:18:48 GMT -5
How about teachers, and other adults on campus? How many teachers want to carry guns. And how many teachers envision themselves as Rambo? Rambo is a fictional character and there were no real bullets used in his movies. Nor are real bullets used in any of the other super-hero movies. And what good is a teacher (or some other adult) with a gun who is down the hall (or in another building on campus) going to do when a gunman suddenly walks into a classroom and sprays the students with bullets? The gunman can be out the door and building just as quickly as he/she entered. Most if not all of these madmen kill themselves immediately after their spree is over. Improve the security of the buildings. And even then you cannot stop someone who has legal access to the building or classroom.
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handyman2
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Post by handyman2 on Feb 27, 2011 19:29:47 GMT -5
Under stress firing a weapon in a charged situation most times does not come out like people think. Just ask a training officer for a police department what the average is for hitting the intended human target by an officer who has fired thousands of rounds in training. You kill an innocent in a gun battle and that family owns you for life. There is no liability insurance that will cover you. Killing is easy, killing an innocent and having to live with it is quite another thing. Unless you are a sociopath.
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Feb 27, 2011 19:37:48 GMT -5
Under stress firing a weapon in a charged situation most times does not come out like people think. Just ask a training officer for a police department what the average is for hitting the intended human target by an officer who has fired thousands of rounds in training. You kill an innocent in a gun battle and that family owns you for life. There is no liability insurance that will cover you. Killing is easy, killing an innocent and having to live with it is quite another thing. Unless you are a sociopath. Though if you are ever, god forbid in such a situation..then you have second thoughts and can really get P off that you are unarmed.
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vonnie6200
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Post by vonnie6200 on Feb 27, 2011 19:40:03 GMT -5
Just ask a training officer for a police department what the average is for hitting the intended human target by an officer who has fired thousands of rounds in training.
It's actually pretty dismal.
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Feb 27, 2011 19:50:15 GMT -5
Just ask a training officer for a police department what the average is for hitting the intended human target by an officer who has fired thousands of rounds in training. It's actually pretty dismal. Yep....and if you much beyond 25 feet , it really gets dismal. Also, if you are thinking of a hand weapon for self dfense, most Americans purchase smaller weapons for carry, one interesting factor in a choice, "If your personal-defense handgun is going to be a small autoloader, and you are buying it because the chance exists that it may someday have to save your life, the choice between a .380 or a 9mm is still a no-brainer. Get a 9mm." 40% higher effectiveness in stopping your assailent.
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Post by vonnie6200 on Feb 27, 2011 20:13:23 GMT -5
Just ask a training officer for a police department what the average is for hitting the intended human target by an officer who has fired thousands of rounds in training. It's actually pretty dismal. Yep....and if you much beyond 25 feet , it really gets dismal. Also, if you are thinking of a hand weapon for self dfense, most Americans purchase smaller weapons for carry, one interesting factor in a choice, "If your personal-defense handgun is going to be a small autoloader, and you are buying it because the chance exists that it may someday have to save your life, the choice between a .380 or a 9mm is still a no-brainer. Get a 9mm." 40% higher effectiveness in stopping your assailent. and go for the head shot
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Feb 27, 2011 20:22:55 GMT -5
Yep....and if you much beyond 25 feet , it really gets dismal. Also, if you are thinking of a hand weapon for self dfense, most Americans purchase smaller weapons for carry, one interesting factor in a choice, "If your personal-defense handgun is going to be a small autoloader, and you are buying it because the chance exists that it may someday have to save your life, the choice between a .380 or a 9mm is still a no-brainer. Get a 9mm." 40% higher effectiveness in stopping your assailent. and go for the head shot at 20/25 feet/...just aim for the middle, and squeeze, squeeze and pray.
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handyman2
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Post by handyman2 on Feb 27, 2011 20:25:37 GMT -5
GO for the head shot: Actually you have a better chance of hitting the target by aiming for the largest body mass the chest area. May not be fatal but it will stop the perp in their tracks. It is not like the movies where a guy has five bullet holes and still shooting back. A body mass shot will paralize the average person and you can disarm them and let the police clean up the mess. The problem with the head shot is the head has a tendence to move more , smaller and harder to hit. Hope no one ever has to try eather method.
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Post by vonnie6200 on Feb 27, 2011 20:26:22 GMT -5
at 20/25 feet/...just aim for the middle, and squeeze, squeeze and pray. the middle won't drop them if they are strung out on drugs
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Post by vonnie6200 on Feb 27, 2011 20:27:12 GMT -5
GO for the head shot: Actually you have a better chance of hitting the target by aiming for the largest body mass the chest area. May not be fatal but it will stop the perp in their tracks. It is not like the movies where a guy has five bullet holes and still shooting back. A body mass shot will paralize the average person and you can disarm them and let the police clean up the mess. a normal person - but not if they are on drugs
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handyman2
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Post by handyman2 on Feb 27, 2011 20:35:54 GMT -5
Not to worry if you use a 9mm the slug striking the sternum bone fragments internally. Even a drug addict will be hemorrhaging so bad by torn aorta veins he will be done and down.
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vonnie6200
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Post by vonnie6200 on Feb 27, 2011 20:55:36 GMT -5
Not to worry if you use a 9mm the slug striking the sternum bone fragments internally. Even a drug addict will be hemorrhaging so bad by torn aorta veins he will be done and down. between the eyes - drops them immediately
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handyman2
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Post by handyman2 on Feb 27, 2011 21:03:32 GMT -5
Well Vonnie unless you are a master marksman or within 5 feet of them the odds of you hitting them between the eyes is about 10%. Hope you never have to find out if that is right or wrong.
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Post by henryclay on Feb 27, 2011 21:55:04 GMT -5
Regarding the likelihood of shooting what you are shooting at. I recently made a post about sitting on an review board. Seven police officers with weapons drawn and at the ready, all of them within 20 feet during a hostage situation, shot and killed both hostage taker and the hostage. I understand the entire time, from start to finish was less than 5 seconds. 53 spent casings were picked up after the shooting. 28 rounds struck the hostage taker and 6 hit the hostage. That is, of the 53 rounds fired 24, (45%), of them missed the hostage taker.
The whole idea of taking guns to school , , , I'm sure , , , is not to ever use them, but to discourage any would-be assailant from thinking the school is a pushover. Kind of like during the Cold War, the best defense was to be so well armed that using those arms was never required.
And I recall going to school with our 22 caliber rifles and practicing for competition with other schools. Guns were just tools, and any fool who wanted to get himself killed could always threaten somebody with a gun and there would be somebody else to step up and oblige him.
It was the liberal attitude that guns kill people that has brought us to this point. Heck, when was the last time you saw a cowboy outfit and cap pistols for sale at Christmas time?
More than that, how many people today even know what a cap pistol looks like?
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vonnie6200
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Post by vonnie6200 on Feb 27, 2011 22:10:03 GMT -5
Regarding the likelihood of shooting what you are shooting at. I recently made a post about sitting on an review board. Seven police officers with weapons drawn and at the ready, all of them within 20 feet during a hostage situation, shot and killed both hostage taker and the hostage. I understand the entire time, from start to finish was less than 5 seconds. 53 spent casings were picked up after the shooting. 28 rounds struck the hostage taker and 6 hit the hostage. That is, of the 53 rounds fired 24, (45%), of them missed the hostage taker. The whole idea of taking guns to school , , , I'm sure , , , is not to ever use them, but to discourage any would-be assailant from thinking the school is a pushover. Kind of like during the Cold War, the best defense was to be so well armed that using those arms was never required. And I recall going to school with our 22 caliber rifles and practicing for competition with other schools. Guns were just tools, and any fool who wanted to get himself killed could always threaten somebody with a gun and there would be somebody else to step up and oblige him. It was the liberal attitude that guns kill people that has brought us to this point. Heck, when was the last time you saw a cowboy outfit and cap pistols for sale at Christmas time? More than that, how many people today even know what a cap pistol looks like? I was a range officer and I know that hitting your target is not likely unless/until you take cover and then take aim - gets much better at that point for the center mass shots - they do work very well unless you target is really hopped up on drugs and then the head shot is important But your basic point - shots under duress are often pretty random and often not too effective I remember the cap guns - and sometimes taking a hammer to the roll of caps
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