Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2014 9:03:02 GMT -5
Anyway, I think Darkhonor is right. I think the teacher shortage is dependent on where you are. How would you find out where the shortages are and just how "short" the area is? Speak to your district office. Talk to the local colleges with teacher certification programs. They know where the shortages are. Nationally the shortages are Science, Math and SPED.
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bean29
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Post by bean29 on Jun 27, 2014 9:06:32 GMT -5
In my area there is an acute shortage of high needs/special needs, Spanish, ESL/Dual Language, and Math and Science teachers. In some areas you are at a serious disadvantage for hiring if you don't speak spanish. I have a friend who has a BS in Finance and a MS in Educaton. She is Bilingual/Spanish and certified to teach K-8 (Not sure if she is certified to teach HS). She did grade school for a few years in the Chicago area (suburb I think) in a Bilingual classroom. She did not get extra pay but she had to do everything twice once in english and a second time in spanish. She quit teaching in the bilingual classroom and went to teach at a different school in a regular classroom. She was much happier there, but she got laid off. It took her 2? years to get a job. She got a state job. Secretary to one of the Department heads. She is happy with that job so I don't think she will go back to teaching.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Jun 27, 2014 14:57:02 GMT -5
Must be a southern and western thing. All new teaching grads are ESL certified and teachers at my old school have to get it. What does it entail to become ESL certified? Another new program we are going to be offering is ESL. We've always offered a handful of courses, but now we will be offering a 61 credit program. Are you thinking about starting a career in teaching?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2014 14:59:35 GMT -5
She works FOR the CC.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Jun 27, 2014 15:01:05 GMT -5
So? Are you suggesting that someone can't change careers into teaching?
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jun 27, 2014 15:10:37 GMT -5
4 states that are pretty much as far as it's geographically possible to be from the Mexican border don't all but require teachers to be ESL certified. You guys are right, there's no way border and surrounding states that are being flooded with Spanish speaking students would require bilingual teachers. If we need more proof I'm sure you can add Alaska to the list and totally rebut this whole post.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2014 15:24:10 GMT -5
Never said that. Just said ALL teachers are not required.
If the statement had been 'around here'.. Ok
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2014 16:38:42 GMT -5
4 states that are pretty much as far as it's geographically possible to be from the Mexican border don't all but require teachers to be ESL certified. You guys are right, there's no way border and surrounding states that are being flooded with Spanish speaking students would require bilingual teachers. If we need more proof I'm sure you can add Alaska to the list and totally rebut this whole post. add Alabama to the list....that's pretty close to the mexican border isn't it?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2014 16:48:13 GMT -5
4 states that are pretty much as far as it's geographically possible to be from the Mexican border don't all but require teachers to be ESL certified. You guys are right, there's no way border and surrounding states that are being flooded with Spanish speaking students would require bilingual teachers. If we need more proof I'm sure you can add Alaska to the list and totally rebut this whole post. My sister's daughter, who wasn't a teacher, couldn't get a job because she isn't bilingual. That was in NM.
We have a large Hispanic population in our area, but we aren't required to take ESL courses.
Interesting fact: you cannot fail a student if language is the problem. In other words, if a student is "failing" English because they don't speak a word of English, he or she must somehow pass. This is probably just an Alabama State Dept. of Education rule, but it makes it a little challenging. Next year ALL students will be in regular classes regardless of their language acquisition. They will still get support from an ESL teacher, but they must pass regular courses . . . unless, of course, the problem is language.
ETA: There will still be advanced courses available. The regular courses means that there are no English Language courses for students who can't speak English.
That makes no sense and is probably part of why Athena couldn't make it as a teacher. That's her claim, not mine.
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giramomma
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Post by giramomma on Jun 27, 2014 17:11:00 GMT -5
The pay or being forced to be ESL certified? I don't think I even know of a district that has more than one ESL certified teacher let alone all of them. That is a total pipe dream even if the district wanted it. As far as pay, teachers around here brand new just graduated teachers start at $50K a year. We hired an engineer new grad for a lot less. So the typical theory that the STEM makes the bigger bucks doesn't fit. All of our schools in the district have ESL teachers. Maybe some schools share. Our neighborhood elementary school does not. I would also imagine the high schools do not, just because of the number of students. In addition to that, it looks like some schools, like our neighborhood school, also have bilingual teachers. They also have bilingual support staff, some that specialize only in 4K, and others that are for 5k-5th grade.... ETA: My district has 27,000 students. 25% are English Language learners (That's ESL/Bilingual kids). The Hispanic population is 19%. We also have a very large Hmong population. It's pretty apparent white flight is happening in our district.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2014 18:00:50 GMT -5
Interesting fact: you cannot fail a student if language is the problem. In other words, if a student is "failing" English because they don't speak a word of English, he or she must somehow pass. This is probably just an Alabama State Dept. of Education rule, but it makes it a little challenging. Next year ALL students will be in regular classes regardless of their language acquisition. They will still get support from an ESL teacher, but they must pass regular courses . . . unless, of course, the problem is language. That makes no sense and is probably part of why Athena couldn't make it as a teacher. That's her claim, not mine. You're right- that would drive me crazy. If I do teach ESL it will be outside of the school system, or as a volunteer within the school system. I will choose whose rules I observe now!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2014 18:05:33 GMT -5
Well, it makes sense to me as a special Ed teacher... You can't fail someone on their identified deficiency. If the kid read the book in the native language, could they answer the questions? If they wrote in their own language about the topic would it be coherent and thoughtful. The skills of English aren't actually all related to the specific language.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2014 18:10:31 GMT -5
4 states that are pretty much as far as it's geographically possible to be from the Mexican border don't all but require teachers to be ESL certified. You guys are right, there's no way border and surrounding states that are being flooded with Spanish speaking students would require bilingual teachers. If we need more proof I'm sure you can add Alaska to the list and totally rebut this whole post. add Alabama to the list....that's pretty close to the mexican border isn't it? Lol. We aren't on the border, but Alabama has a significant Hispanic population . . . particularly in certain pockets. We are an agricultural state, and "pickers" are an important part of the economy. However, Alabama is not particularly noted for embracing cultural diversity.
I think an ESL course would be a useful addition to the teacher training curriculum in the same sense that a basic special education course is. I teach about the same percentage of both.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2014 19:19:44 GMT -5
Well, it makes sense to me as a special Ed teacher... You can't fail someone on their identified deficiency. If the kid read the book in the native language, could they answer the questions? If they wrote in their own language about the topic would it be coherent and thoughtful. The skills of English aren't actually all related to the specific language. I agree except . . .
I had an AWESOME non-native speaking student. He was actually Asian. Using all the accommodations, he scored 100% plus.
Then he contacted the IB teacher because he wanted to join that program. There was no way he could ever keep up with the reading and writing involved.
It honestly hurt to have to advise the IB program director that it likely wouldn't work. But if you can't speak English, how would you be able to do the work in an advanced (really advanced) English immersion classroom?
Fortunately, he was able to do AP classes instead. Just not in AP English.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Jun 27, 2014 19:37:44 GMT -5
Are you thinking about starting a career in teaching? No, I don't want to teach (but I am interested in curriculum development). That's too bad, they say that only the best should teach, and that the rest of us have to settle for something else. You'd have a lot to offer the profession.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jun 28, 2014 4:25:46 GMT -5
All new teaching grads in Florida, at least, have it as part of their curriculum so they come out of school with it. Others have to get it on their own time. Some are exempt but as the spread of illegals continue, I don't think anyone will be exempt. My old PE dept now has to have it. Another reason I'm happy to be out of there.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jun 28, 2014 4:26:23 GMT -5
Actually teaching grads have had it as part of their curriculum for several years now.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2014 22:50:18 GMT -5
There has been a shortage of GOOD teachers since I was a kid.... I have to disagree with you. So far DS has had over 30 teachers in his academic career. The communications teacher in Junior High wasn't the best, one of his GATES teachers in CA was totally ineffective, his Math Teacher first semester this year wasn't very good and his English teacher had some problems (didn't understand what it meant to teach an advanced class vs. regular class). So that's 4 "bad" teachers out of over 30.
The other 26+ have been amazing. I am seriously astounded at the quality and caliber of the teachers that DS has in his high school. For the most part they are an impressive lot of teachers that are passionate about what they do and it shows. Some a young- straight out of college, some have a 5 to 10 years under their belts and some taught when I went there 20 years ago.
To say there have been a shortage of GOOD teachers for the past 20+ years is completely inaccurate in my opinion (as the parent of a junior and the aunt of 9 nieces and nephews currently between the ages of 2nd grade and 10th grade)
It is completely inaccurate for your family, not for me and the people that attended my schools. My grade school had less than 100 kids in it and my high school had 200 in it. We usually had ineffective older teachers or teachers fresh out of college. The good younger ones left for bigger schools as soon as they had 3-4 years experience. I'm not saying the problem was as bad as inner city schools, but I think others who grew up in small rural towns know what I'm talking about.
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MarleyKeezy78
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Post by MarleyKeezy78 on Jun 30, 2014 0:45:39 GMT -5
DH is a science teacher and had no problem getting a job some 13 years ago, but I know other people who are teachers and have a hard time finding jobs (older than DH and lost jobs previously) Also know some who are in their early 20's and have found jobs in good districts, and we are supposed to have a glut of teachers here in Michigan. I'm not a teacher so have no idea though
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2014 3:07:19 GMT -5
If you are developing curriculum, then be sure you call it by correct name ELL, not ESL.
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Mardi Gras Audrey
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Post by Mardi Gras Audrey on Jun 30, 2014 3:31:04 GMT -5
Interesting fact: you cannot fail a student if language is the problem. In other words, if a student is "failing" English because they don't speak a word of English, he or she must somehow pass. This is probably just an Alabama State Dept. of Education rule, but it makes it a little challenging. Next year ALL students will be in regular classes regardless of their language acquisition. They will still get support from an ESL teacher, but they must pass regular courses . . . unless, of course, the problem is language. **Donning my asbestos suit** Not to be disrespectful but this is one of the most asinine things I've ever heard (The DOE rule, not Susana's info). Why the hell can't you fail someone in English who can't speak/write/read English? They haven't mastered the subject so how can they pass the class? By this logic, no one should ever fail a Spanish/French/German/Chinese class when they are a native english speaker. It isn't their fault they were raised by english speaking parents in rural America, is it? They should all be passed and given As! And how about in math? Very few people speak algebra, trig, and calculus at home. Maybe we should pass them all. Afterall, it isn't their fault that they don't have Descartes (sp?) as a parent. Stuff like this is the reason that we are falling behind as a country. It does the student, the school, and the other students no good to pass the student when they clearly aren't competent in the basics of a subject. If you can't write a sentence in English, how the hell are you going to be able to learn how to write a paragraph in the class you got passed onto? What happens to the other students when the teacher is forced to stop and reexplain everything the non-English speaker doesn't know that they should have learned years ago? They get shortchanged. The teacher gets extra work. The student gets through without being able to read. How much good will that do them in the workforce when they can't read basic directions? Are they going to tell their employer they need it translated into their native language or need an aide to explain everything? If so, why would the employer keep them instead of just hiring the aide?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2014 4:47:19 GMT -5
Interesting fact: you cannot fail a student if language is the problem. In other words, if a student is "failing" English because they don't speak a word of English, he or she must somehow pass. This is probably just an Alabama State Dept. of Education rule, but it makes it a little challenging. Next year ALL students will be in regular classes regardless of their language acquisition. They will still get support from an ESL teacher, but they must pass regular courses . . . unless, of course, the problem is language. **Donning my asbestos suit** Not to be disrespectful but this is one of the most asinine things I've ever heard (The DOE rule, not Susana's info). Why the hell can't you fail someone in English who can't speak/write/read English? They haven't mastered the subject so how can they pass the class? By this logic, no one should ever fail a Spanish/French/German/Chinese class when they are a native english speaker. It isn't their fault they were raised by english speaking parents in rural America, is it? They should all be passed and given As! And how about in math? Very few people speak algebra, trig, and calculus at home. Maybe we should pass them all. Afterall, it isn't their fault that they don't have Descartes (sp?) as a parent. Stuff like this is the reason that we are falling behind as a country. It does the student, the school, and the other students no good to pass the student when they clearly aren't competent in the basics of a subject. If you can't write a sentence in English, how the hell are you going to be able to learn how to write a paragraph in the class you got passed onto? What happens to the other students when the teacher is forced to stop and reexplain everything the non-English speaker doesn't know that they should have learned years ago? They get shortchanged. The teacher gets extra work. The student gets through without being able to read. How much good will that do them in the workforce when they can't read basic directions? Are they going to tell their employer they need it translated into their native language or need an aide to explain everything? If so, why would the employer keep them instead of just hiring the aide? because English class has nothing to do with learning to speak English, however, a French or Spanish class is all about learning to speak the language. English class is learning about different parts of speech, analyzing different writing styles, analyzing different types of literature, learning about protagonist/antagonist/etc., and on and on. None of the English classes I ever took had anything to do with being able to speak English.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2014 7:03:36 GMT -5
English class has nothing to do with learning to speak English, however, a French or Spanish class is all about learning to speak the language. English class is learning about different parts of speech, analyzing different writing styles, analyzing different types of literature, learning about protagonist/antagonist/etc., and on and on. None of the English classes I ever took had anything to do with being able to speak English. By this reasoning, I should be able to take a French literature class in a French school and insist on reading everything in translation and taking all my exams in English. Wait till I tell my former co-worker, who was born in Nebraska and passed his bac ("Baccalaureate", the demanding tests French students take at the end of HS) as an exchange student in France. It could have been so much easier!
Seriously- I agree with helping students learn English and doing what we can to keep them from falling behind in other subjects just because they don't understand the language in which they're taught, but this is going too far.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2014 7:07:58 GMT -5
Did your coworker have years of French instruction beforehand? If not, I'd be surprised if there wasn't some adaptation made for him.
The point is to assess what is being taught/learned, not allow the deficiency to mask the learning of what is being taught.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2014 7:13:32 GMT -5
English class has nothing to do with learning to speak English, however, a French or Spanish class is all about learning to speak the language. English class is learning about different parts of speech, analyzing different writing styles, analyzing different types of literature, learning about protagonist/antagonist/etc., and on and on. None of the English classes I ever took had anything to do with being able to speak English. By this reasoning, I should be able to take a French literature class in a French school and insist on reading everything in translation and taking all my exams in English. Wait till I tell my former co-worker, who was born in Nebraska and passed his bac ("Baccalaureate", the demanding tests French students take at the end of HS) as an exchange student in France. It could have been so much easier!
Seriously- I agree with helping students learn English and doing what we can to keep them from falling behind in other subjects just because they don't understand the language in which they're taught, but this is going too far. I'm not sure comparing the educational system in France and the educational system in the US is apples to apples.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2014 7:14:14 GMT -5
I don't know if its special education work, or because I just have a mind that naturally breaks things down a certain way, but I was always amazed how even teachers with lots of experience sometimes couldn't see that the assignment they were giving or assessment were actually not targeting or accessing their specific goals and objectives.
Reading for instance is Decoding, Fluency, Comprehension. You don't design a test for comprehension without taking into account a child's decoding skills, or you aren't really testing comprehension... Etc.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2014 8:56:21 GMT -5
Did your coworker have years of French instruction beforehand? If not, I'd be surprised if there wasn't some adaptation made for him. The point is to assess what is being taught/learned, not allow the deficiency to mask the learning of what is being taught. He may have. I can tell you that I loved the French language (still do and am still pretty fluent) and after 3 years in HS I would have been OK with a year of being schooled in French. I don't know if I would have done as well as he did, but I might have.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2014 10:56:26 GMT -5
That sentence has no predicate. I am SO glad DDIL plans to home-school.
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Mardi Gras Audrey
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Post by Mardi Gras Audrey on Jun 30, 2014 11:24:04 GMT -5
because English class has nothing to do with learning to speak English, however, a French or Spanish class is all about learning to speak the language. English class is learning about different parts of speech, analyzing different writing styles, analyzing different types of literature, learning about protagonist/antagonist/etc., and on and on. None of the English classes I ever took had anything to do with being able to speak English. I don't know about your English classes but all of the ones I've taken have required knowing the language (across 6 different college/universities, elementary and high school). I suppose one could say that an English LITERATURE class doesn't require knowledge of the language (although, if you are requiring the use of translation services to read the literature, you are going to lose something, IMHO. Translations are rarely spot on from one language to another. There are words in some language that don't translate exactly from one to another). An English language/language arts class certainly requires knowledge of the language though. When we did group papers in college (business dept), it was clear who had been passed through English classes and had no clue about the language. It was sad because their written works made them sound illiterate. Someone with a knowledge of the language would have been able to catch more of their mistakes, as they could have read what they wrote and known it didn't sound write. I wouldn't hire someone who for a business job who writes a 1/2 page long sentence in a paper. It isn't professional.
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sheilaincali
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Post by sheilaincali on Jun 30, 2014 11:31:19 GMT -5
Yesterday my friend that's the catholic HS principal was over and I was telling him about this thread. I said "so I know we talked about the STEM type teachers the other day but do you think in general there is a teacher shortage?" He said "absolutely there is" however, I know of a handful of local teachers that claim they haven't been able to get a teaching job. Are teachers more hesitant to teach at a private high school? Is that why he thinks there is a shortage?
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