Somebody HELP! Morgan Freeman is Fresh Out of Kool-Aid

[zibazinski]

We had a service to clean so I have no clue what they made. This is of course when I could finally stop cleaning the office and doing the laundry for the clinics. DF pays his service $320 a month. For what they do, I'd clean the damn place. They come once a week, though. Ours had to come every day because of patients. Laundry service came twice a week.

[Virgil Showlion]

If I had to guess at Paul's argument, it's that links between race and income are largely a self-fulfilling prophecy. If a group is beset by low expectations (and let's not kid ourselves, affirmative action is the racism of low expectations) as well as the belief that the game is rigged against success, what motivation is there to try? Nobody expects anything of you; if you try, you'll fail due to factors beyond your control; hence why even try? Why not give up and fall back on the comfortable excuse "I never had a chance anyway".

Unavoidable impediments to success may well exist, but I'm betting their influence is marginal compared to this self-defeatist mentality. That seems to be precisely what Mr. Freeman is saying: Let it go. The world isn't fair; we know this. But clinging to the injustice like a millstone is doing you more harm than good. It becomes a self-perpetuating trap and excuse. Or as the anchor puts it, "This is over, can we move on?"

[Value Buy]

Jun 5, 2014 18:29:51 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

Being born into the right family is a huge factor. 

I do feel sometimes that success is like Calvinball and the rich white guys are making up the rules leaving entire pockets of people confused as to how to play the game.  

I would agree they may not want to share the top echelon level, but I firmly believe they could not give a crap about holding anyone down from being successful in their endeavors.

Do you honestly believe they stay away nights thinking how to keep the commoners down?

[zibazinski]

Of course they do! This is the crux of the victim mentality. My mom was furious that her doctor called her obese. Which was a lot nicer word than he should have used. I asked her if she thought he spent the whole night before wondering just how he could insult her the next day? It's NEVER the fault of the victim mentality, it's always someone else's fault. That way you don't have to accept any responsibility for yourself and your choices.

[djAdvocate]

i don't think there is much nature in the argument, but i think there is a lot of nurture.  where i part ways with many others is that i don't think the nurture is just the community/ethnic/cultural environment in which one lives.  it is the collective perception of opportunity, experience of opportunity, and information that can lead to opportunity that is present in a community that leads to outcomes just as much as it is "the family".

i know this is not quite coming out right, because most people see a community as a demographic thing.  but i think it is a lot more than that.

[zibazinski]

Okay, so if remove all children from this bad environment that keeps them down, will that fix it?

[thyme4change]

Jun 5, 2014 18:56:07 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

Jun 5, 2014 18:29:51 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

Being born into the right family is a huge factor. 

I do feel sometimes that success is like Calvinball and the rich white guys are making up the rules leaving entire pockets of people confused as to how to play the game.  

I would agree they may not want to share the top echelon level, but I firmly believe they could not give a crap about holding anyone down from being successful in their endeavors.

Do you honestly believe they stay away nights thinking how to keep the commoners down?

No - but I do think they stay awake at night thinking of how to get even more successful and make sure they don't lose their place on top.  And a lot of people like that know they can exploit previous good intentions.  (And there are a lot of predatory people out there who will gladly ruin anyone's life to make a buck.)

My example will be college.  30 years ago we started telling everyone that college was the golden goose and everyone should go.  I believe that was with the best intentions.  And then they lobbied to make student loans non-dischargable.  I don't think the intention was to hold anyone down - but instead to make sure they stayed on top.  And then they found a way to give ridiculous amounts of money to people because we told them that EVERY college education will pay for itself.  Meanwhile, the rules have changed - you have to get the right major from the right college and figure out how to pay for it without burying yourself.  Those are a bunch of added rules unknown to those families who haven't had a tradition of education.  Calvinball.  

[djAdvocate]

Jun 5, 2014 19:23:00 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

Okay, so if remove all children from this bad environment that keeps them down, will that fix it?

i think that elements of "the bad environment" are everywhere, zib.  they certainly were in my home growing up.  the difference is that i always had at least one loving parent, and some visible examples of what success looked like that didn't involve drugs or gangs.  i am really grateful for that.

[Value Buy]

Jun 5, 2014 20:14:38 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

Jun 5, 2014 18:56:07 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

I would agree they may not want to share the top echelon level, but I firmly believe they could not give a crap about holding anyone down from being successful in their endeavors.

Do you honestly believe they stay away nights thinking how to keep the commoners down?

No - but I do think they stay awake at night thinking of how to get even more successful and make sure they don't lose their place on top.  And a lot of people like that know they can exploit previous good intentions.  (And there are a lot of predatory people out there who will gladly ruin anyone's life to make a buck.)

My example will be college.  30 years ago we started telling everyone that college was the golden goose and everyone should go.  I believe that was with the best intentions.  And then they lobbied to make student loans non-dischargable.  I don't think the intention was to hold anyone down - but instead to make sure they stayed on top.  And then they found a way to give ridiculous amounts of money to people because we told them that EVERY college education will pay for itself.  Meanwhile, the rules have changed - you have to get the right major from the right college and figure out how to pay for it without burying yourself.  Those are a bunch of added rules unknown to those families who haven't had a tradition of education.  Calvinball.  

I understand what you are saying, but I think the people most people are referring to here, never went to college, never really planned on going to college, and never will, unless they wind up in prison and all of a sudden become freaking Rhodes scholars and capable of multiple degrees while behind bars.

If you think having $150,000 in student loans as the way to keep people down, we are talking an entire different scenario.

[The Captain]

Jun 5, 2014 17:01:27 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Jun 5, 2014 16:34:50 GMT -5 The Captain said:

DJ - I've asked this several times, but you've never responded and I suspect I know why.

did you suspect it is because i have stated it about half a dozen times?  because that is the reason.

How much do you pay your employees who do the cleaning?

$30k/year + benefits.

is there some point you are trying to make?

Well, I will say that I'm impressed.  The reason I asked is that IRL I know a business owner who always goes on about how well he treats his employees, every one is a valued etc.  Back in the day when I used to do his taxes I noted he paid third parties to have cleaning crews, landscape maintenance, etc come in.  I asked him about it once and he was very frank about outsourcing anything that did not "add value" to his business so he didn't have to cover benefits.

So you've been pretty consistent is saying every contribution should provide a living wage (and I consider 30K for an individual just that).  I was just wondering if you were more consistent then my real life guy.

I would suspect you are the exception, rather than the rule in this regard.

[zibazinski]

Well, DF outsources his lawn mowing, snow removal, and once a week cleaning because no one who works for him wants to do it.

[thyme4change]

Jun 6, 2014 6:08:22 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

Jun 5, 2014 20:14:38 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

No - but I do think they stay awake at night thinking of how to get even more successful and make sure they don't lose their place on top.  And a lot of people like that know they can exploit previous good intentions.  (And there are a lot of predatory people out there who will gladly ruin anyone's life to make a buck.)

My example will be college.  30 years ago we started telling everyone that college was the golden goose and everyone should go.  I believe that was with the best intentions.  And then they lobbied to make student loans non-dischargable.  I don't think the intention was to hold anyone down - but instead to make sure they stayed on top.  And then they found a way to give ridiculous amounts of money to people because we told them that EVERY college education will pay for itself.  Meanwhile, the rules have changed - you have to get the right major from the right college and figure out how to pay for it without burying yourself.  Those are a bunch of added rules unknown to those families who haven't had a tradition of education.  Calvinball.  

I understand what you are saying, but I think the people most people are referring to here, never went to college, never really planned on going to college, and never will, unless they wind up in prison and all of a sudden become freaking Rhodes scholars and capable of multiple degrees while behind bars.

If you think having $150,000 in student loans as the way to keep people down, we are talking an entire different scenario.

It was an easy example.  There are more ways that the economy is Calvinball.  All those manufacturing jobs went away.  Even the most basic office job requires a fair bit of computer knowledge and skills.  I'm sure there are dozens of other ways the rules have changed over time.

[Deleted]

Jun 5, 2014 9:31:01 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

Sorry, but they do it to themselves. You still hear rumblings of reparations for slavery. Seriously? They get everything thrown at them. Some take advantage. Great. Some don't. Not so great. All our war on poverty did was to contribute to more ghetto mentality.

I keep reading here that minorities are demanding reparations for slavery. Who the hell are these minorities? Where are they? Is this just coming from people you all see on tv? I know and converse with far more minorities than I do white Americans. I know and talk to minorities that come from money, that are middle class, working professionals, and some that are from the ghetto or still in the ghetto either actually living there or it's just their mentality. I can't recall ANYONE, not even the most idiotic, ghetto, lazy people who say some really stupid shit, talking about how minorities should receive reparations. Seriously.

I don't know why false statements like this bug me so much, but they really do. If you all really believe some of the stuff you say and/or repeat, I guess the joke's on you. The idea that minorities are plotting en masse to make the government give them their 40 acres and mule is ridiculous. I thought we all knew not to believe everything we hear on tv.

[Deleted]

Jun 5, 2014 19:20:49 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

i don't think there is much nature in the argument, but i think there is a lot of nurture.  where i part ways with many others is that i don't think the nurture is just the community/ethnic/cultural environment in which one lives.  it is the collective perception of opportunity, experience of opportunity, and information that can lead to opportunity that is present in a community that leads to outcomes just as much as it is "the family".

i know this is not quite coming out right, because most people see a community as a demographic thing.  but i think it is a lot more than that.

I think I understand what you mean and I've tried to explain it here before. I don't think I did a very good job.

It is true that opportunities are abundant in America, for anybody. But there is a difference between telling kids from the ghetto that they can be successful and helping them to connect the dots so they see that it's within reach and how they can get there. A lot of people know how to connect the dots because of the environments they grew up in, or because a teacher, guidance counselor, coach or mentor took an interest in them and guided them. But a lot of them WANT to be succesful and do the right things but don't know where the opportunities are or how to position themselves to be able to take advantage of opportunities and they don't have anyone in their lives to guide them so they flounder. Not necessarily doing anything bad, but not living up to their potential either.

I see it all the time in some of the young adults that come through my job as temps. They get to work however they can, they work when they get there, they're not dummies and they want to do well in life. Some of them are from the streets but they're trying to walk the straight and narrow. And when you start talking and listening to them and learning about their lives, you understand what I'm talking about. It's not so simple as telling kids that America is the land of opportunity and anybody can make it if they really want to. It's not real to them because they don't know HOW.

I don't care what the posters on here think, I firmly believe that a lot of people are "lost" simply because they don't know how to make the opportunities in America work for them. A lot of people think that if kids from disadvantaged homes don't get this guidance at home, surely they get it at school, or wherever. That is so NOT true. It's just not.

[Deleted]

Jun 6, 2014 19:15:30 GMT -5 @pinkcshmere said:

Jun 5, 2014 9:31:01 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

Sorry, but they do it to themselves. You still hear rumblings of reparations for slavery. Seriously? They get everything thrown at them. Some take advantage. Great. Some don't. Not so great. All our war on poverty did was to contribute to more ghetto mentality.

I keep reading here that minorities are demanding reparations for slavery. Who the hell are these minorities? Where are they? Is this just coming from people you all see on tv? I know and converse with far more minorities than I do white Americans. I know and talk to minorities that come from money, that are middle class, working professionals, and some that are from the ghetto or still in the ghetto either actually living there or it's just their mentality. I can't recall ANYONE, not even the most idiotic, ghetto, lazy people who say some really stupid shit, talking about how minorities should receive reparations. Seriously.

I don't know why false statements like this bug me so much, but they really do. If you all really believe some of the stuff you say and/or repeat, I guess the joke's on you. The idea that minorities are plotting en masse to make the government give them their 40 acres and mule is ridiculous. I thought we all knew not to believe everything we hear on tv.

I wouldn't call it a false statement. I've personally heard it, myself. Due to me having to move, I lost touch with the people I heard say it... but I HAVE heard it.

[zibazinski]

True, but if you talk about removing kids from this environment that keeps them down, shit hits the fan. 

[Deleted]

I wouldn't call it a false statement. I've personally heard it, myself. Due to me having to move, I lost touch with the people I heard say it... but I HAVE heard it.

IMO, it is a false statement because it is presented as if it is common. I'm sure somebody somewhere talks about how they should receive reparations for slavery. But I'm going to go out on a limb and say that it is not a commonly held idea or belief (whatever we want to call it) among minorities.

[Deleted]

"False" means "untrue". Calling something of this nature false means it has never happened. Not it has happened rarely.. It means "never happened".

Sorry. It's not false.

[Deleted]

Lol. Yes sir.

False.

[Tennesseer]

Jun 6, 2014 20:20:39 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

"False" means "untrue". Calling something of this nature false means it has never happened. Not it has happened rarely.. It means "never happened".

Sorry. It's not false.

I have lived in a majority black city for over 20 years.  The majority of my co-workers were black. I live in a diverse (majority black) neighborhood. I have never once heard one black city resident, one black co-worker, one black neighbor call for reparations.

Has some black person somewhere in our country recently called for reparations?  Sure. But that does not mean blacks as a whole or even some want reparations.  

There a few white people who want to ship black people back to Africa, Asians back to Asia, Jew back to Israel, and gays, well, to hell.  That does not mean all white people or even some white people want blacks, Asians, Jews, etc. to return to their ancestral lands of which they have been removed from for countless generations.

There are idiots, bigots and racists in all the racial and ethnic groups in our country.

[billisonboard]

Majorities call for reparations.

Minorities call for no reparations.

Both true.

[Deleted]

Jun 6, 2014 20:46:36 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Jun 6, 2014 20:20:39 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

"False" means "untrue". Calling something of this nature false means it has never happened. Not it has happened rarely.. It means "never happened".

Sorry. It's not false.

I have lived in a majority black city for over 20 years.  The majority of my co-workers were black. I live in a diverse (majority black) neighborhood. I have never once heard one black city resident, one black co-worker, one black neighbor call for reparations.

Has some black person somewhere in our country recently called for reparations?  Sure. But that does not mean blacks as a whole or even some want reparations.  

There a few white people who want to ship black people back to Africa, Asians back to Asia, Jew back to Israel, and gays, well, to hell.  That does not mean all white people or even some white people want blacks, Asians, Jews, etc. to return to their ancestral lands of which they have been removed from for countless generations.

There are idiots, bigots and racists in all the racial and ethnic groups in our country.

The bolded I can agree with... the rest is just "It's never happened to me, therefore it's never happened to anyone" BS.

Look how you even contradict yourself in the very same paragraph (the underlined)... paraphrased: "Do some? Sure?... that doesn't mean some want them."

[Tennesseer]

Jun 6, 2014 21:08:59 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

Jun 6, 2014 20:46:36 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

I have lived in a majority black city for over 20 years.  The majority of my co-workers were black. I live in a diverse (majority black) neighborhood. I have never once heard one black city resident, one black co-worker, one black neighbor call for reparations.

Has some black person somewhere in our country recently called for reparations?  Sure. But that does not mean blacks as a whole or even some want reparations.  

There a few white people who want to ship black people back to Africa, Asians back to Asia, Jew back to Israel, and gays, well, to hell.  That does not mean all white people or even some white people want blacks, Asians, Jews, etc. to return to their ancestral lands of which they have been removed from for countless generations.

There are idiots, bigots and racists in all the racial and ethnic groups in our country.

The bolded I can agree with... the rest is just "It's never happened to me, therefore it's never happened to anyone" BS.

Look how you even contradict yourself in the very same paragraph (the underlined)... paraphrased: "Do some? Sure?... that doesn't mean some want them."

LOL!  I see no contradiction.  Maybe the person who you heard was an anomaly.  Or you never heard it at all but you just want to stir the racial pot.  Who knows.   

[Deleted]

Jun 6, 2014 21:14:05 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Jun 6, 2014 21:08:59 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

The bolded I can agree with... the rest is just "It's never happened to me, therefore it's never happened to anyone" BS.

Look how you even contradict yourself in the very same paragraph (the underlined)... paraphrased: "Do some? Sure?... that doesn't mean some want them."

LOL!  I see no contradiction.  Maybe the person who you heard was an anomaly.  Or you never heard it at all but you just want to stir the racial pot.  Who knows.   

You don't see the contradiction?

Some do... or... some don't. You can't have both "do" and "don't" when talking about the same "some".

[Tennesseer]

"Has some black person (singular) somewhere in our country recently called for reparations? Sure. But that does not mean blacks as a whole or even some (an undetermined amount (plural)) want reparations."

[EVT1]

 Some might

Some is a pretty broad range.  How about most don't.

For example- some Muslims are terrorists.......Most aren't.

Or some Christians are hate filled homophobes..... Most aren't.

Shall I go on?

[cme1201]

Jun 6, 2014 20:31:14 GMT -5 @pinkcshmere said:

Lol. Yes sir.

False.

Considering that this article "The Case for Reparations

Two hundred fifty years of slavery. Ninety years of Jim Crow. Sixty years of separate but equal. Thirty-five years of racist housing policy. Until we reckon with our compounding moral debts, America will never be whole."

Appeared in the Atlantic less than a month ago, you can't scream false, you may disagree to it's impact but, it is defiantly not false.

www.theatlantic.com/features/archive/2014/05/the-case-for-reparations/361631/

[EVT1]

Jeff Foxworthy tone:

If you are scouring the internet for evidence that affirmative action is racist- you might be a racist.

If you think black Americans are lazy, live off the government, or are the main cause of our national debt via welfare- you might be a Republican.

Therefore:  If you are a Republican- you might be a racist  

QED

[zibazinski]

Dissing Jeff Foxworthy isn't going to help.

[workpublic]

blacks, Asians, Jews, etc. to return to their ancestral lands of which they have been removed from for countless generations.

please explain that statement. blacks were "removed(by other blacks to arabs to whites) for how many generations? i don't know of anybody "removing" asians and jews from their "homelands"
  i guess the romans may have removed the jews after they destroyed the temple, but i think it was God who scattered them. I could be wrong and I'm sure you'll tell me.