Impact of Online Education

[Phoenix84]

In the "future of the country" thread, Southernsusana made the claim that in the somewhat distant future teachers will go away entirely and all online learning will be the chief way children/people are educated.

Oped said this would be an interesting topic to explore in a thread, so I decided to start it.  I hoped Oped doesn't feel like I'm stealing her thunder.

Anyways, what do you think?  How do you think the advent of technology in general, and the internet, will change education, and how fundamentally will this change occur?

[Deleted]

I think its more than just online education too. There are so many avenues for self education. I'm not sure if they always existed, or if they are a new phenomenon. Certainly the internet magnifies them, both the ability to take online education and because it eases the ability to find educational opportunities that exist in the community. Its a pretty cool time to be alive, if we can manage to think past some of the boxes we've grown up with.

I look at how some 'companies of the future' like google operate, and I see a time where the 'traditional route' isn't going to be necessary for many anymore..

[Deleted]

I brought this up a few years ago, thinking it would be the wave of the future. I got the impression that the general consensus here was that it would never happen.

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

My opinion of online education is not great. My experience was at the beginning of my PhD, where several of my classes were online.

I absolutely HATED them. I spent 3x more time on my online classes that I did when I actually attended the class - it's a lot more reading and a lot less interaction. I do understand that this was a rather unique situation, but after each class I felt I lost something....

In other classes, since I was in class with healthcare professionals, a lot of the class wound up being directed discussions. In a healthcare management class, we had one guy in the class who was an insurance administrator who could give a perspective of why Australia's insurance system would not work in the US because he knew the kinks of the US system. These were things that you just don't get reading articles online.

I can pick a dozen or more different discussions we had dealing with healthcare issues from those who are on the front line, from why it is so difficult to recruit physicians to areas without sufficient healthcare, to legislation of Medicaid benefits to translational research.

[Tiny]

I think for the kids that are self motivated/curious/driven? not being in a structured classroom for 5 hours a day may be a big benefit... they'd probably whip thru the 'required' stuff and then could persue the things that interest them while being able to take advantage of resources (mentors/teachers/other's with the same interests) that aren't local.

The problem I have with 'on-line' or self directed learning (which is what on-line learning seems to be to me - there's little or no pressure to do that actual work/learning) is that it seems the majority of kids need to be 'forced' to learn. In otherwords, most kids would choose NOT to learn new spelling words or math or read stuff that doesn't interest them.

Isn't that one (of many) life skills going to school teaches kids - how to get thru doing stuff you don't really want to do?

Maybe I'm confused about what "online learning" means. Maybe it's one teacher with a video class of thousands? Or maybe it's just really 'old school' where the students are given the syllabus/outline for what they need to 'learn' and then it's up to them to complete the work, take the tests, write the paper and 'mail' it all in to a teacher they do not see/talk to/meet with for more than a few minutes each week or each month?

[sesfw]

I'm not sure.  Maybe for the generations coming up a lot of the courses will be online but they lose the camaraderie of fellow students.  I've never taken a class online and 20+ years ago I was in an offsite class with the instructor on a monitor and sitting with about 10 other students.  I discovered my fellow students having private conversations and not paying attention to the instructor.  All of us dropped out within the first month.

I'm thinking about taking a class or two at Scottsdale CC but I don't think I have the discipline to go strictly online.  I'm of the older set and will do better in a class.

It depends on what you are raised with.  Todays students have that option and maybe for their children it will be the norm.

Life changes.

[Deleted]

I can see technology reducing the amount of college profs you need, but that won't happen in the near future for elementary teachers.  If anything, they are using MORE teachers now and probably will continue in the future.

From watching my wife's school, it seems they are using technology to figure out what kids are deficient in and then bringing in additional specialists to work closer with them so they don't fall further behind.  They also have tailored growth targets for each child and the kids need to work towards meeting those from fall to spring.  

Class sizes are smaller, but it's not just because of the unions.  Teachers are way better today than when I was in school.

[Deleted]

My DD is taking an online nutritional healing class and she has group discussions (somehow) online with other students and the teachers.
Homeschooling her boys, it's the only way she can find the time to take classes.

[Phoenix84]

I do agree that online and self learning will have a pretty significant impact on the future of edcuation, and we very well might see radical changes in the way kids/people are educated.  I agree with Oped that it's important to not be constrained by the political systems and ideologies we grew up with.

I'm not sure I agree that it will work for everyone.  For adults and teenagers, I think self directed learning may be on the rise.  But to learn the very basics, elementary school stuff, I don't see how most kids would have the drive, discipline, or even knowledge to seek out what they need to know on their own.  You need a teacher, parent, or some other adult to introduce topics and keep them on track, not to mention handle behavior issues.  In addition, you'll need someone to recognize problems and work to correct them early before they grow.  A computer can't do that.

So it might be good for older kids and adults, I don't think it will work for younger kids.

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

I'm not sure I agree that it will work for everyone. For adults and teenagers, I think self directed learning may be on the rise.

It is, but it is not easy. Adults can be just as likely to put off something as kids.

My first online class, I blew it off for awhile and spent 48 hours catching up and just *barely* got in under the wire. It killed my whole weekend and pissed me off beyond belief.

I soon realized that for this class, I needed to choose a time that was as set in stone as my in classroom classes. Friday (the day I set) became a routine where I'd leave work early, hit the gym and be home by 5. I'd pick up take out on the way home to heat up later, sit down at the computer and work until 11 -12 at night, or I was getting overloaded. That left me needing only a couple hours to finish things up, and I tried to do that Sunday evening.

Even as an adult, it's difficult when a friend calls and asks if you want to go to dinner and a movie and you need to tell them that Friday's out.

[The Captain]

Computers will never be able to entirely replace people for education purposes.  Every individual learns differently and people are able to adapt to that, computers are not.

My methods of instructing vary depending on the person whom I'm instructing.  I can also tell when someone starts to have that "ahh-ha!" moment and push through from there.

[Deleted]

There is a difference though for those who grow into a system, and those that grow up in one. I think it will be an interesting evolution to watch.

[giramomma]

I work in online education at a major university. I set up the classes, I don't actually teach them. That's the job of the professors.
Our programs are set up on a cohort model (x number of students accepted, they all take the same courses in the same order).

We also have required discussion activities and weekly conferences, as well as a summer residency for a week.

I've taken online courses myself and they haven't been run as well as the programs I work for.

The first class the student takes is one to acclimate them to being an online learner. They learn to use the tools effectively, and they also do things like map out when they are going to put in their 20 hours of classwork a week. (That's an assignment.)

[Abby Normal]

I think that eventually both will become extinct.  People will just have a direct link from their brain to the internet that they can look up anything they need to know. We'll be completely dependent on technology and be high functioning idiots.

I think I just made my geek husband proud. 

[Deleted]

You guys are limiting yourselfs by thinking online education will look like traditional education, online.

I also don't think it will all take place 'online' ... But that we will begin to embrace alternate paths to competency and skill development.

Check out the following:

www.nytimes.com/2013/11/16/world/europe/in-france-new-tech-academy-defies-conventional-wisdom.html?_r=0

Codespells.blogspot.com

look up hacking your education, or hacking college...

[Deleted]

May 6, 2014 11:20:00 GMT -5 The Captain said:

Computers will never be able to entirely replace people for education purposes.  Every individual learns differently and people are able to adapt to that, computers are not.

Wanna bet? The BBC just did a couple of pieces on this and they pointed out that a computer program can determine exactly when/where you slip up and give you more practice with those problems. It can detect a word you don't understand and work it into the leccson a few times to it sticks in your brain.

Having said that- I'm not sure I could have learned long division from a computer program. I also found it interesting that some universities are trying to incorporate Massively Open On-line courses (they actually referred to them as MOOCs) into the curriculum. "Your assignment is to review Lesson 20 of 'Intro to Plate Tectonics' by Professor Anderson at Harvard on YouTube." Umm, why are you charging tuition?

[Deleted]

Who needs long division? 

Seriously, thats another change that's going to come to education. 

And yeah Athena, that question will get ask more often... Or at least, why am I paying tuition? 

[Deleted]

There was a prof in college who was notorious for always giving out a syllabus he stuck to and teaching from the book. I seriously went to his class ONLY when there was a test or to hand in a project. I got an A. 

[Phoenix84]

May 6, 2014 10:45:37 GMT -5 Tiny said:

I think for the kids that are self motivated/curious/driven? not being in a structured classroom for 5 hours a day may be a big benefit... they'd probably whip thru the 'required' stuff and then could persue the things that interest them while being able to take advantage of resources (mentors/teachers/other's with the same interests) that aren't local.

The problem I have with 'on-line' or self directed learning (which is what on-line learning seems to be to me - there's little or no pressure to do that actual work/learning) is that it seems the majority of kids need to be 'forced' to learn. In otherwords, most kids would choose NOT to learn new spelling words or math or read stuff that doesn't interest them.

Isn't that one (of many) life skills going to school teaches kids - how to get thru doing stuff you don't really want to do?

Maybe I'm confused about what "online learning" means. Maybe it's one teacher with a video class of thousands? Or maybe it's just really 'old school' where the students are given the syllabus/outline for what they need to 'learn' and then it's up to them to complete the work, take the tests, write the paper and 'mail' it all in to a teacher they do not see/talk to/meet with for more than a few minutes each week or each month?

Yes, I agree with this.  I'm not sure if it's most, but a good portion of students, even through high school, don't really have what it takes to be self directed learners.  School is a chore for them, something you have to do.  If they had a choice, they'd rather not be in school at all or learning anything.  How does online education address this?

Tiny is also right in that school isn't necessarily just about learning to read, write, and do math.  There's something to be said about learning to work "in a system" to accomplish something.  When you go to any job, sooner or later, you're going to have to sit down, shut up, and do as you're told.  You also have to work within a buracratic system to get stuff done.  Part of school is learning acamedics, part of it is learning to behave and have the discipline to do stuff you don't want to do.

[The Captain]

May 6, 2014 12:24:17 GMT -5 @athena53 said:

May 6, 2014 11:20:00 GMT -5 The Captain said:

Computers will never be able to entirely replace people for education purposes.  Every individual learns differently and people are able to adapt to that, computers are not.

Wanna bet? The BBC just did a couple of pieces on this and they pointed out that a computer program can determine exactly when/where you slip up and give you more practice with those problems. It can detect a word you don't understand and work it into the leccson a few times to it sticks in your brain.

Having said that- I'm not sure I could have learned long division from a computer program. I also found it interesting that some universities are trying to incorporate Massively Open On-line courses (they actually referred to them as MOOCs) into the curriculum. "Your assignment is to review Lesson 20 of 'Intro to Plate Tectonics' by Professor Anderson at Harvard on YouTube." Umm, why are you charging tuition?

I agree some areas can be taught by computers, others not so much so. I'm confident that a computer would never have been able to teach me the correct "hand feel" of a perfectly kneaded pie dough.

[alabamagal]

May 6, 2014 10:48:49 GMT -5 @lonewolf said:

My DD is taking an online nutritional healing class and she has group discussions (somehow) online with other students and the teachers.
Homeschooling her boys, it's the only way she can find the time to take classes.

She is having group discussions the same way that we do here.  

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

May 6, 2014 13:20:51 GMT -5 alabamagal said:

May 6, 2014 10:48:49 GMT -5 @lonewolf said:

My DD is taking an online nutritional healing class and she has group discussions (somehow) online with other students and the teachers.
Homeschooling her boys, it's the only way she can find the time to take classes.

She is having group discussions the same way that we do here.  

And IMO, you definitely lose something, especially if you are looking at it to replace a face to face discussion.  You just cannot type or read fast enough and too much falls through the cracks.  

[raeoflyte]

May 6, 2014 13:22:05 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

May 6, 2014 13:20:51 GMT -5 alabamagal said:

She is having group discussions the same way that we do here.  

And IMO, you definitely lose something, especially if you are looking at it to replace a face to face discussion.  You just cannot type or read fast enough and too much falls through the cracks.  

Yes and no.  I learn a lot more when I have time to digest the information and come up with my own questions before hearing the next response.  

[Deleted]

May 6, 2014 13:27:34 GMT -5 raeoflyte said:

May 6, 2014 13:22:05 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

And IMO, you definitely lose something, especially if you are looking at it to replace a face to face discussion.  You just cannot type or read fast enough and too much falls through the cracks.  

Yes and no.  I learn a lot more when I have time to digest the information and come up with my own questions before hearing the next response.  

That's the same thing DD was telling me.

[Deleted]

It depends what kind of learner you are... and I think there will still be group learning opportunities, I am just not convinced they will all look the same as they do today.

But for me, i'd much rather you give me the list of expectations/content to cover... and leave me the heck alone with it. 

If all of college was like that math class i could probably have finished it in 2 years. 

[Deleted]

Having a son who was bullied a lot in school I can appreciate online learning.

I will also say that he managed to graduate from HS, never failed a single course, and could barely read!

School said he had a serious learning disability, etc....

Well.... He decided a couple years ago that he did want to learn to read better.  He started self-learning and now reads very, very well. 

DS accomplished something on his own that the schools failed miserably at, IMHO.  So, it does happen. 

[Phoenix84]

I took an online nuclear science class from Kansas State.  I honestly wasn't impressed with the format and delivery of online courses.

Not being able to ask questions was a huge detriment.  Plus the homework was clearly designed around the idea of meeting and collaberating with other students.  The professor assigned more problems than most because he said he expected you to work with others in groups on the homework.  Obviously I couldn't do that several states away and did more homework than the students on site.

But who knows, if you're raised where online classes are the norm, you might feel preference for those instead.  It's all relative.

[buystoys]

May 6, 2014 14:55:36 GMT -5 Phoenix84 said:

I took an online nuclear science class from Kansas State.  I honestly wasn't impressed with the format and delivery of online courses.

Not being able to ask questions was a huge detriment.  Plus the homework was clearly designed around the idea of meeting and collaberating with other students.  The professor assigned more problems than most because he said he expected you to work with others in groups on the homework.  Obviously I couldn't do that several states away and did more homework than the students on site.

But who knows, if you're raised where online classes are the norm, you might feel preference for those instead.  It's all relative.

Phoenix, it all depends on the school and the online class format.  I've taken classes where homework consisted of collaboration.  In those instances, the online program had chat options and it was up to the various student groups to schedule times to meet.  I've also taken classes where the instructor is actually speaking and writing on a white board.  It's similar to the standard class room environment.  There was an icon to raise your hand if you had a question and when you were called on, you could either type your question or just use your computer microphone to verbalize it.  Those classes had standard class room meeting times and all students were expected to attend.  Maybe I've been fortunate, but most of the classes I've attended also had "office" hours for the instructors.  If you had questions that hadn't been answered or realized while doing homework that you really didn't grasp something, you could call during office hours and speak to the instructor. 

My biggest reason for going with online programs rather than brick and mortar courses really came down to available time.  I couldn't guarantee I could be out of work on time to attend classes or that I wouldn't be traveling during the semester, so online was my best opportunity.  Admittedly, some classes weren't as well run as others.  Most, though, were very similar to my brick and mortar experience other than having more homework for the online courses. 

[zibazinski]

Older people are not going to feel as comfortable with online. DS didn't have online until college, 2001-2005. He hated it. DD had it starting in HS and she still loves it. Gets her best grades in online. She can go as fast or as slow as needed and always says she understands better what is being taught.

[zibazinski]

For those that use the school as daycare, it will always serve that purpose. No way would I put my kids in public schools the way they are taught now and the kinds of students in it. Diversity is over rated. Being afraid to use the rest room or walk the halls sucks.