Self defense or murder?

[Tennesseer]

Apr 28, 2014 16:54:38 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

No. We'll know what a jury decides. As to whether or not he is innocent or guilty - that's for each person to decide what they think for themselves. The jury's decision is the only one that counts (other than God's, of course). May be wrong. May be right. But it counts. I think it was you on another thread speaking up (correctly) about those wrongly convicted. Happens sometimes. Still...it is a system I believe in. I'll respect whatever they decide because those people will do the best they can.

If you wish to continue comparing your parents dying with those criminals getting shot during the commission of a felony, please feel free, even though I know you know it's ridiculous. The great thing about America? You have every right NOT to shoot the crap out of someone breaking into your home. Good luck with taking your chances. I happen to know wounded people can shoot back and no way in hell am I taking that chance, God forbid, I'd ever have to make that decision.





Either way, we will know by the end of the week of Smith's innocence or guilt because the defense has rested their case. The case now goes to the jury.

Or?

Either way, we will know by the end of the week of Smith's innocence or guilt because the defense has rested their case. The case now goes to the jury.

No.  We'll know what the jury decides. As to whether or not he is innocent or guilty - that's for each person to decide what they think for themselves. The jury's decision is the only one that counts (other than God's, of course). May be wrong. May be right. But it counts. I think it was you on another thread speaking up (correctly) about those wrongly convicted. Happens sometimes. Still...it is a system I believe in. I'll respect whatever they decide because those people will do the best they can.

If you wish to continue comparing your parents dying with those criminals getting shot during the commission of a felony, please feel free, even though I know you know it's ridiculous. The great thing about America? You have every right NOT to shoot the crap out of someone breaking into your home. Good luck with taking your chances. I happen to know wounded people can shoot back and no way in hell am I taking that chance, God forbid, I'd ever have to make that decision.

And how do we know if he is innocent or guilty?  Because the case now goes to the jury.  Easy-peasy!  LOL!

[Green Eyed Lady]

No, Tenn.  We don't know.  We only know what the jury decided.  Juries are comprised of human beings.  Human beings make mistakes.  It's the best thing we have but it's not error-proof.  Ask the Innocence Project if you don't believe me.

[Green Eyed Lady]

Apr 28, 2014 16:56:58 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Apr 28, 2014 16:50:10 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

LOL!!  I know the feeling.  Pretty much what I was thinking about the "parents" analogy! 

You really do not know the feeling. 

I think you watch too many thrillers where the bad man, thought dead, reaches out as the heroine walks away and grabs her ankle for one last try for revenge.

Comatose people, especially those in the final throws of dying after being shot multiple times, and with no weapons (as in this case), do not really grab your ankle to try and kill you.

Are you speaking from your vast experience in law enforcement?  Because I am.  But really.  You probably know more than I do about it.  I'll bow to your greater knowledge on the subject.

[Tennesseer]

Apr 28, 2014 17:04:29 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

Apr 28, 2014 16:56:58 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

You really do not know the feeling. 

I think you watch too many thrillers where the bad man, thought dead, reaches out as the heroine walks away and grabs her ankle for one last try for revenge.

Comatose people, especially those in the final throws of dying after being shot multiple times, and with no weapons (as in this case), do not really grab your ankle to try and kill you.

Are you speaking from your vast experience in law enforcement?  Because I am.  But really.  You probably know more than I do about it.  I'll bow to your greater knowledge on the subject.

And well you should.

[Green Eyed Lady]

Word.

[EVT1]

All the jury is going to tell us in this case is what society is prepared to do about what happened.

He already admitted to murder- so the case is closed to whether or not he is a murderer IMO- just remains to be seen what a jury decides he is.  Maybe they mistrial- I doubt it- but it could happen I guess.  Not helping things he didn't testify and tell his side of the story.

My prediction- one shot out the seven is going to be the one that puts him away for murder. 

But if anything the man needs to be charged for tampering with evidence, abuse of a corpse, failing to report a shooting incident, etc.  Too bad we will have to wait for the wrongful death suit to hear his side of it- would love to hear his answers for his actions. 

[Tennesseer]

Apr 28, 2014 19:30:38 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

All the jury is going to tell us in this case is what society is prepared to do about what happened.

He already admitted to murder- so the case is closed to whether or not he is a murderer IMO- just remains to be seen what a jury decides he is.  Maybe they mistrial- I doubt it- but it could happen I guess.  Not helping things he didn't testify and tell his side of the story.

My prediction- one shot out the seven is going to be the one that puts him away for murder. 

But if anything the man needs to be charged for tampering with evidence, abuse of a corpse, failing to report a shooting incident, etc.  Too bad we will have to wait for the wrongful death suit to hear his side of it- would love to hear his answers for his actions. 

My guess ìs ìf he had testified, the jury would have found him guilty after one minute of deliberations.

[billisonboard]

If the jury doesn't draw the line here and say, "Too far", it will be interesting to see how far the next person will take it. 

[mmhmm]

I doubt it will be particularly interesting to the victims...

[billisonboard]

Apr 28, 2014 20:40:56 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

I doubt it will be particularly interesting to the victims...

But would they be victims or deserving recipients of justice?

[EVT1]

How much further can it go?  Sharks with frickin' laser beams?

I think they will see it like they did in the Jordan Davis case- even if they can agree the first few shots were fair game for self-defense- once the threat is no longer present to keep shooting is murder.  That's my prediction on it- his own admitted 'kill shot' is going to be the one piece of evidence they will not be able to ignore.  The other shots and distances are murky- but this one was crystal clear- and he did not take the stand to explain it.  I can see a not guilty on the boy and guilty on the girl verdict- would not surprise me at all if that is how it comes down. 


I revise my prediction in fact- not guilty as to the male, guilty murder 2 on the girl.

[Green Eyed Lady]

Probably a pretty good bet.

[mmhmm]

Apr 28, 2014 20:42:58 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Apr 28, 2014 20:40:56 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

I doubt it will be particularly interesting to the victims...

But would they be victims or deserving recipients of justice?

In my view, these kids were victims, in a way.  Should they have been doing what they were doing?  No.  Should they have been shot to death in the way they were shot to death?  No.

[BeenThere...DoneThat...]

Apr 21, 2014 22:01:06 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

And before anyone gives me shit- when someone breaks into someone's house they are on notice that it may not end well for them.  I think it is perfectly fine to make sure society understands that you break into someone's house at your peril.

However- there is a limit to this- in this case an execution:

news.yahoo.com/prosecutor-minn-homeowner-lay-wait-teens-163213122.html

     Byron Smith, 65, of Little Falls, is charged with first-degree premeditated murder in the slayings of 17-year-old Nick Brady and 18-year-old Haile Kifer on Thanksgiving Day in 2012. The killings rocked the small central Minnesota town of about 8,000 and stirred debate about how far a person can go in defending their home

This was discussed before here- but wow- had no idea it was this bad:

     As Brady descended the basement steps, Smith shot him in the chest, then in the back while Brady fell, Wartner said. Smith fired a final shot into Brady's head, the bullet passing through Brady's hand, Wartner said.

     Smith put Brady's body on a tarp, dragged it into his workshop, reloaded his Mini-14 rifle and sat down again, the prosecutor said. A few minutes later, Kifer walked down the stairs and Smith shot her, Wartner said. He tried another shot, but his rifle jammed, Wartner said, and Smith told police he believed Kifer laughed at him.

     "He was angry," Wartner said. "So he pulled out his revolver and he shot her twice in the head, once in the left eye and once behind the left ear."

     Smith dragged Kifer's body into the workshop and laid it on top of Brady's. Smith told investigators he thought he heard Kifer gasping, so he pulled out his revolver for what he told police was a "good clean finishing shot to the head," the assistant prosecutor said.

One sick individual- yet he has solid support- makes me really sad so many in this country are so bloodthirsty.

...fwiw, I read these events differently...


As Brady descended the basement steps, Smith begins shooting at him. While Brady's still moving/tumbling forward, Smith fires again and hits him in the back as he rolls. Smith continues firing. The last shot passes though both Brady's head and hand. Meanwhile, Smith hears movement above from another assailant, so he puts Brady's body on a tarp, dragged it into his workshop, reloaded his rifle, and then sat down again, regaining his breath. A few minutes later, Kifer (the second assailant) comes down the stairs and so Smith began shooting at her. His rifle jammed, and Smith says that he believed he heard her laugh when it jammed. He then pulled out his revolver and shot her twice in the head, on the left side of her face. Smith dragged Kifer's body into the workshop and laid it on top of Brady's.

Smith then called the police.


...seems reasonable...

[mmhmm]

That's not what I've read, BTDT.  For one thing, Smith didn't call the police, at all.  He had his neighbor call the police for him, and he didn't do that until the next day.  Additionally, he didn't shoot her twice in the head on the left side of her face.  He shot her once in the head on the left side of her face.  Then, he put the gun under her chin and shot her in the head again.  That's by his own account, according to what I've read.

[EVT1]

You left out the finishing shot under the chin at point blank range- not exactly something one does when in fear for their life.

And he never called police either- where did you get that one?  The neighbor called the police the next day- he hung out in his house with a couple bodies piled in a corner.

I hang my case on the execution shot- there is nothing remotely reasonable about it. 

BTW how does a bullet generally pass through a hand and a head?  When someone is being defensive.  Gun pointed at your face and you put your hand up- that's how.  But that is reasonable to question.  The chin shot is not explainable- well other than he claimed it was a mercy shot- which is still illegal.

All I am saying is the incontrovertible kill shot is going to convict him- whether the jury takes all of the other evidence into question and comes back with murder one is what I am curious about.  Very possible they will- it is a pretty convincing argument that he set out to kill from the start- which negates the hell out of self-defense claims.

[Tennesseer]

Apr 28, 2014 21:08:10 GMT -5 BeenThere...DoneThat... said:

Apr 21, 2014 22:01:06 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

And before anyone gives me shit- when someone breaks into someone's house they are on notice that it may not end well for them.  I think it is perfectly fine to make sure society understands that you break into someone's house at your peril.

However- there is a limit to this- in this case an execution:

news.yahoo.com/prosecutor-minn-homeowner-lay-wait-teens-163213122.html

     Byron Smith, 65, of Little Falls, is charged with first-degree premeditated murder in the slayings of 17-year-old Nick Brady and 18-year-old Haile Kifer on Thanksgiving Day in 2012. The killings rocked the small central Minnesota town of about 8,000 and stirred debate about how far a person can go in defending their home

This was discussed before here- but wow- had no idea it was this bad:

     As Brady descended the basement steps, Smith shot him in the chest, then in the back while Brady fell, Wartner said. Smith fired a final shot into Brady's head, the bullet passing through Brady's hand, Wartner said.

     Smith put Brady's body on a tarp, dragged it into his workshop, reloaded his Mini-14 rifle and sat down again, the prosecutor said. A few minutes later, Kifer walked down the stairs and Smith shot her, Wartner said. He tried another shot, but his rifle jammed, Wartner said, and Smith told police he believed Kifer laughed at him.

     "He was angry," Wartner said. "So he pulled out his revolver and he shot her twice in the head, once in the left eye and once behind the left ear."

     Smith dragged Kifer's body into the workshop and laid it on top of Brady's. Smith told investigators he thought he heard Kifer gasping, so he pulled out his revolver for what he told police was a "good clean finishing shot to the head," the assistant prosecutor said.

One sick individual- yet he has solid support- makes me really sad so many in this country are so bloodthirsty.

...fwiw, I read these events differently...


As Brady descended the basement steps, Smith begins shooting at him. While Brady's still moving/tumbling forward, Smith fires again and hits him in the back as he rolls. Smith continues firing. The last shot passes though both Brady's head and hand. Meanwhile, Smith hears movement above from another assailant, so he puts Brady's body on a tarp, dragged it into his workshop, reloaded his rifle, and then sat down again, regaining his breath. A few minutes later, Kifer (the second assailant) comes down the stairs and so Smith began shooting at her. His rifle jammed, and Smith says that he believed he heard her laugh when it jammed. He then pulled out his revolver and shot her twice in the head, on the left side of her face. Smith dragged Kifer's body into the workshop and laid it on top of Brady's.

Smith then called the police.


...seems reasonable...

Assailants?  Really?   Burglers, yes.  Assailants, no.

That you post "Smith then called the police" tells me you are not up on the facts of this case.

[EVT1]

Damn- did not notice they were called assailants- good call.  That's a mighty presumptuous characterization.  Saw no evidence of that at all-well other than the actions of Smith.  So far we have only one assailant- well armed and ready.

[Deleted]

Apr 28, 2014 21:34:13 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

You left out the finishing shot under the chin at point blank range- not exactly something one does when in fear for their life...I hang my case on the execution shot- there is nothing remotely reasonable about it. 

So if he had been a better shot and killed them in one or two shots you would be fine with it. The only difference the "execution shot" makes is an aesthetic one. Killing intruders in your home is killing intruders in your home.

Quite honestly this guy scares me, but only because he is so unapologeticly straightforward about his intentions and carrying them out. I'm a product of my times and much more comfortable with people that try harder to be politically correct and come up with "acceptable" excuses for what they do.

But at the end of the day this guy shot 2 people that were intruding on his home with the intent to rob and or hurt him, one of them for the 3rd or 4th time. Either you have the right to defend yourself and your property or not. It makes no sense to make the victim of the crime responsible for judging how violent the criminal is going to be. That is how a lot of victims end up dead.

The moral of this story is don't break into other people's homes.

[mmhmm]

But at the end of the day this guy shot 2 people that were intruding on his home with the intent to rob and or hurt him ...

Not really.  He made sure his home appeared unoccupied.  He had cameras outside.  He knew they were there, but they thought the house was empty.  He'd made sure of that.  They didn't come into the home with the intent to hurt anyone.  They thought it was unoccupied at the time.

I don't disagree the kids shouldn't have been doing what they did.  By doing so, they took a risk and it sure didn't pay off!  Thing is, though, if you've shot someone twice, they fall down the stairs and end up in a heap at the bottom, if you're afraid of them you're not going to go toward them so you can shoot them in the face.  No damned way!  If you're close enough to shoot them in the face from a distance of 6 inches to 3 feet, you're close enough to render them incapable of using their hands to get any sort of weapon or perpetrate violence on your person.  This guy should scare you.  I know he'd scare the crap out of me.  He's waaaay over the line.

[billisonboard]

I find it significant that people have to deviate from the facts of the situation to defend this guy.

[mmhmm]

As I've said, if someone breaks into my home, I won't hesitate to shoot them, and I will shoot to kill.  What I won't do is try to pretend I'm not home and hope somebody breaks into my house so I CAN kill them.  If I have to shoot an intruder and my shot doesn't kill them but takes them to the ground and leaves them lying there, I'm not going to head over there to get an up-close and personal view of their injuries.  I'm going to keep my gun trained on them while I call 911.

Sorry, but my "stuff" just isn't worth anybody's life.  My life is.  My mother's life is.  Our "stuff" isn't.

[Virgil Showlion]

You guys are still at it.

Any more, and I'm going to have to file murder charges.

You'll have analyzed this case... to death.

[BeenThere...DoneThat...]

...well, I only read the first post... not ten pages of discussion... so, no, I'm not aware of all the facts of the case... I assumed the guy called the cops afterwards... sounds like he didn't call until later... and sure, I could have used the word "intruders" instead of "assailants" but it just wasn't the first word that came to mind... my point was that I didn't read into the opening post with a presumption of guilt... that I could view the situation differently then described by the prosecutor... I simply find it reasonable to riddle someone with bullets when they've broken in your home... and riddle them with more as you stand over top their bodies... I figure you'll stop shooting once you've regained your composure...

...fwiw...

[BeenThere...DoneThat...]

Apr 28, 2014 23:31:00 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

You guys are still at it.

Any more, and I'm going to have to file murder charges.

You'll have analyzed this case... to death.

...lol... it seemed that GEL was getting the third degree, so I stepped in... my mistake...

[billisonboard]

Apr 28, 2014 23:33:21 GMT -5 BeenThere...DoneThat... said:

... sounds like he didn't call until later... ...

...fwiw...

He never called the police.

[billisonboard]

Apr 28, 2014 23:33:21 GMT -5 BeenThere...DoneThat... said:

...well, I only read the first post... not ten pages of discussion... so, no, I'm not aware of all the facts of the case... ... ... I figure you'll stop shooting once you've regained your composure...

...fwiw...

There is a question on whether he ever lost his composure.

[Virgil Showlion]

What I've learned from all this is that if teenage punks start robbing my place, I'll have to carefully conceal the trap door to my crocodile pit before law enforcement comes a-knockin'.

[Green Eyed Lady]

Apr 28, 2014 23:36:33 GMT -5 BeenThere...DoneThat... said:

Apr 28, 2014 23:31:00 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

You guys are still at it.

Any more, and I'm going to have to file murder charges.

You'll have analyzed this case... to death.

...lol... it seemed that GEL was getting the third degree, so I stepped in... my mistake...

LOL!  You are sweet.  GEL stopped debating with people who think they know everything.  It's like playing chess with a pigeon....

[mmhmm]

Apr 28, 2014 23:33:21 GMT -5 BeenThere...DoneThat... said:

...well, I only read the first post... not ten pages of discussion... so, no, I'm not aware of all the facts of the case... I assumed the guy called the cops afterwards... sounds like he didn't call until later... and sure, I could have used the word "intruders" instead of "assailants" but it just wasn't the first word that came to mind... my point was that I didn't read into the opening post with a presumption of guilt... that I could view the situation differently then described by the prosecutor... I simply find it reasonable to riddle someone with bullets when they've broken in your home... and riddle them with more as you stand over top their bodies... I figure you'll stop shooting once you've regained your composure...

...fwiw...

Some of us who are discussing this have done a good deal of reading outside the OP, BTDT.  There's a good deal more information out there.