Florida lawmaker wants teachers to grade parents

[Deleted]

The whole point is, if we are headed towards a merit pay system, you have to be able to 'grade' teachers fairly... If you have 10 kids in your classroom who never get enough sleep, never hand in homework, etc. etc... then why should that be all the teacher's fault when the kid doesn't progress?

Private sector has some control over their clients... teachers have to give EVERYONE a free and appropriate education and test them all on the same standards... regardless of potential or home life... so if you are going to pay them based on how well kids achieve... then there should be some metric to also grade the other factors...

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

How many times have we heard it said, "With rights come responsibility"? So, with responsibility comes rights. Parents have no say, parents have no choices, parents can't be held responsible. It's really that simple.

[Deleted]

Parents have lots of choice... they can send their kids to the public school, or homeschool, or private school... they can run for school board, show up at school board meetings, vollunteer...

PARENTS actually have the responsibilty to educate their children.. it varies by state, but here in PA, parents are responsible to see thet their children get schooling in specific subject areas every year from ages 8 - 16. They can do that in ANY WAY THEY PLEASE! ... Lots of parents LIKE unloading their kids on the pubic schools... property taxes in most places don't run nearly what full time day care costs... its a steal...

Don't tell me parents don't have choices... they have TONS... most of the time they choose the public schools... and they also have the right to be involved in local schools and local politics which dictate those schools... but most CHOOSE not to....

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

The way you hold parents responsible is very simple: Set high standards for students in your school. Students don't meet those standards get failing grades, and face explusion. I don't favor free education for all, but if we're going to have it-- we, the people paying for it, have the right to demand the highest standards for both the children, and the teachers. If the kid's parents have failed them, then the kids themselves should be permitted to fail. Let the sins of the fathers be visited on their children and grandchildren-- operative word THEIRS, and not all of the rest of the kids. Why should the children of good parents be put at a disadvantage because of the children of lousy parents?

[Deleted]

Are you trying to tell me that, the way you see it... the TEACHER have the rights to educate your children... and so they should accept responsibility for it? Hoot... wow... interesting concept...

[Deleted]

So you have ALL the RIGHTs... and the teachers have ALL the responsiblity? ...

And what happens when the teacher's merit pay is based on grades and achievement? ....

Let the sins of the fathers be visited on the children? .... Do you really even still pretend that you are a Christian?

[billisonboard]

Feb 24, 2011 10:22:58 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

The way you hold parents responsible is very simple: Set high standards for students in your school. Students don't meet those standards get failing grades, and face explusion.

Start explusions at .......? First grade? 6th? 9th? And then what? What do you suppose these people will be doing when expelled?

Feb 24, 2011 10:22:58 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

... If the kid's parents have failed them, then the kids themselves should be permitted to fail. Let the sins of the fathers be visited on their children and grandchildren-- operative word THEIRS, and not all of the rest of the kids. ...

Please keep in mind that you are talking about our fellow citizens. These are people who, when they age a few more years, will have the right to vote for our elected officials.

[floridayankee]

Feb 24, 2011 10:58:01 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Please keep in mind that you are talking about our fellow citizens. These are people who, when they age a few more years, will have the right to vote for our elected officials.

And pick our nursing home.

[973beachbum]

Feb 24, 2011 11:00:15 GMT -5 floridayankee said:

Feb 24, 2011 10:58:01 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Please keep in mind that you are talking about our fellow citizens. These are people who, when they age a few more years, will have the right to vote for our elected officials.

And pick our nursing home.

I was thinking the same thing!

Truthfully this isn't nearly as difficult as everyone wants it to be. My best friends are teachers and we all have kids. Almost everyone really wants the best for their kids. And almost everyone is fair about the job their kids teachers do teaching them. If the parents got to pick which teachers stayed and which went I am sure it would be a very small percent that the teachers the parents voted to kick out.

I truly think this would work in another way too. If the teacher who has been in my DD's World History teacher knew that his 20 years there with tenure wasn't going to keep him there if he didn't do a good job, then maybe he wouldn't spend all day talking about his misspent childhood and would spend it teaching World History like his is getting paid to do.

In my 10 years with my kids in the public school system I have dealt with at least 60 teachers who taught my kids or taught a subject for them. There are only 3 who really needed to find a new profession. The worst part is every child, parent and fellow teacher at that school knew it but there was nothing that anyone could do about it, That is what people should be working on.

[dancinmama]

Feb 24, 2011 10:21:29 GMT -5 oped said:

Parents have lots of choice... they can send their kids to the public school, or homeschool, or private school... they can run for school board, show up at school board meetings, vollunteer...

PARENTS actually have the responsibilty to educate their children.. it varies by state, but here in PA, parents are responsible to see thet their children get schooling in specific subject areas every year from ages 8 - 16. They can do that in ANY WAY THEY PLEASE! ... Lots of parents LIKE unloading their kids on the pubic schools... property taxes in most places don't run nearly what full time day care costs... its a steal...

Don't tell me parents don't have choices... they have TONS... most of the time they choose the public schools... and they also have the right to be involved in local schools and local politics which dictate those schools... but most CHOOSE not to....

Many choose the public schools by default. DH and I were fortunate because we lived very frugally which gave us the option of paying for private school and later homeschooling; but many parents just cannot afford that.

[dancinmama]

I agree that the culture of this country has changed the classroom environment such that it is not very conducive to teaching OR learning. You could not pay me enough money to be a public or even private school teacher these days. I do know that there are too many teachers in the classroom that really DO NOT want to be there, but they are stuck because they need to earn a living.

IMHO the really good teachers are waaaaaay underpaid and the bad teachers are overpaid.

I do think that we need to get rid of tenure and go towards merit based pay for teachers. I don't know exactly how you measure that and it seems that no matter what method of measurement one might come up with, there are protests from the teachers that it is not fair; but it is clear that we need to implement something. I would assume that the teachers themselves would know who among them is effective and who is not. If not that, perhaps school districts should hire independent evaluators to come in and observe several times during the school year.

I do know that the REALLY good teachers seem to be able overcome the typical obstacles, motivate "most" students, and somehow get them really interested in the subject material.

[Deleted]

Many parents CHOOSE not to afford that... You think i love living in this small town in the middle of nowhere where no one shares my views? ... not all the time... but its cheap... and we can live on one salary... and we have a house and vehicles that reflect that one salary... because we want to homeschool our kids...

You have to CHOOSE in life... and if you send your kids to public school because you don't live frugally and that's all you can afford, then it is STILL a choice...

[973beachbum]

Feb 24, 2011 11:40:42 GMT -5 oped said:

Many parents CHOOSE not to afford that... You think i love living in this small town in the middle of nowhere where no one shares my views? ... not all the time... but its cheap... and we can live on one salary... and we have a house and vehicles that reflect that one salary... because we want to homeschool our kids...

You have to CHOOSE in life... and if you send your kids to public school because you don't live frugally and that's all you can afford, then it is STILL a choice...

So what about the single parents. My dad died when I was young. Giving up her job to go live in the middle of no where for my mom would have meant giving up eating as well. There are lots of single parent house holds out there. Should they not be afforded a quality education for their children just because they don't have a spouse who can support them?

[Deleted]

I said MANY beachbum... not all... And i think public school SHOULD be available... I just don't think it means that parents have no choice or responsiblity in the matter... as Paul was saying...

[Deleted]

I was not saying it was a bad choice... just that it was not like they have no choice... they do...

[dancinmama]

Feb 24, 2011 11:32:40 GMT -5 973beachbum said:

Truthfully this isn't nearly as difficult as everyone wants it to be. My best friends are teachers and we all have kids. Almost everyone really wants the best for their kids. And almost everyone is fair about the job their kids teachers do teaching them. If the parents got to pick which teachers stayed and which went I am sure it would be a very small percent that the teachers the parents voted to kick out.

You are very fortunate to live in such a great school district with such good schools and teachers. This was not the case where we lived (rural central CA). We lived closest to the "better" schools, but even they left a lot to be desired. I took the time for two years before DH even started kindergarten to go to the public school that he would attend and observe in several classrooms and on the playground. I don't think you could find many parents that would take the time to do that, but it made me realized that the public schools where we lived were not up to par so we opted to not only pay the taxes that fund the public school, but spent additional hard-earned money to send DS to private school.

I am glad that your schools and teachers are so good, but that simply is not the case for everyone.

[dancinmama]

Feb 24, 2011 11:40:42 GMT -5 oped said:

Many parents CHOOSE not to afford that... You think i love living in this small town in the middle of nowhere where no one shares my views? ... not all the time... but its cheap... and we can live on one salary... and we have a house and vehicles that reflect that one salary... because we want to homeschool our kids...

You have to CHOOSE in life... and if you send your kids to public school because you don't live frugally and that's all you can afford, then it is STILL a choice...

Our situation was exactly the same - a small town in the middle of nowhere. And yes, we did make sacrifices; but the planning and sacrifices that we made to be able to afford to make a choice in education was done so way in advance of ever having children. There are a lot of parents who THINK that the public school will be sufficient and then find out that it is not - and too late to adjust their lifestyle to take advantage of another alternative.

Regardless of what choices may or may not realistically be available to everyone, the majority of children in the US go through the public school system and all statistics show that we are not doing a very good job of educating our children for many different reasons. The public school system is broken and it needs to be fixed.

[Deleted]

I think the idea that we can educate ALL children to the same standard is doomed for failure... the only standards all kids can meet are low ones... we need to differentiate again, and not call it failure if not all kids can read at a 12th grade level... that shouldn't be EVERYONE's goal...

[handyman2]

I agree Oped: There are some that are math whizs, others reading before they get to first grade, some that have trouble with both but may be some of the most amazing art talents, some that have great talent in music or mechanics. Public schools are geared to give each child a basic ability to deal with the real life. They try hard to cover all bases and offer options to enhance each childs talents but they can only go so far. How can a teacher with 30 to 35 kids have the training and time to teach a dislexic child to read? They cannot, the child with ADD who cannot listen or sit still? they do the best they can in most cases but some things the parents should be the ones to find assistance for the child.
keep in mind that when people talk about education in places like China etc. There the education is not free the parents pay out of pocket each year and make sure the child adhere's to a strict study code. Even then many do not make it out of high school and on to higher education.

[billisonboard]

Feb 24, 2011 12:57:17 GMT -5 handyman2 said:

.. keep in mind that when people talk about education in places like China etc. There the education is not free the parents pay out of pocket each year and make sure the child adhere's to a strict study code. Even then many do not make it out of high school and on to higher education.

Not to mention the fact that there are fields to work and factories for those who do not have the ability or motivation for academic pursuits.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Feb 24, 2011 12:13:15 GMT -5 oped said:

I think the idea that we can educate ALL children to the same standard is doomed for failure... the only standards all kids can meet are low ones...we need to differentiate again, and not call it failure if not all kids can read at a 12th grade level... that shouldn't be EVERYONE's goal...

I tend to agree. I'm pretty radical when you get right down to it.

I'm completely opposed to government involvement in education, period. There's just too big a conflict of interest.

I'm even opposed to compulsory education / turancy laws.

Vouchers scare the crap out of me because I think they are a Trojan horse into the functioning private school system.

I'd like to see education more loose knit, and informal at the local- even sub-division, church, mosque, synagog level.

[Deleted]

Sorry paul... the kid who always pops into my mind when you talk no truancy laws is the little girl i had whose mom wouldn't get rid of her head lice... just kept her out of school until the fines kicked in... then she finally did something...

And the compulsory ed/ reporting thing... well, i met a man once who homeschooled and was thinking of moving to the area... he gave of pedofile vibes like NO one i've ever met... while i was trying to decide what to do, he bolted back to Texas... i heard from others after he left that he gave them the same vibe... Texas has NO homeschooling law to speak of... you don't even have to inform... you can tell no one and report to no one...

I'm not a big judgement day believer, but if i ever have to defend my life, that i didn't move fast enough for those kids will be my biggest failure, i think...

We need to have some accountability... children have as many... maybe they should have more, rights than grown ups... its our job as a country, as a community to keep kids safe...

So, for me, at least, even though i keep my kids home, i don't mind compulsory and truancy laws... etc... if it helps keep kids safe...

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

I reject the underlying presupposition that we require a federal department of education, a state department of education, a local school "district" deciding all these things for us. You seem to be implying (and I'm not sure it's what you're going for) that either we have government, or we have zero accountability. I think that's wrong. Yes, some kids will slip through the cracks. Some kids will be victimized by pedophiles. Those things happen now and we have all those layers of government and laws, etc. Communities have tools- and the markets have tools, and the tools they lack, they would develop-- and there is NO DOUBT that a competitive market would outperform government run schools.

They do it now. And they do it WITH top-down, command-and-control, one-size-fits-all goverment education monopoly rules in the way. Education in the free market would absolutely do better- and I dare say kids would be healthier and safer.

[Loopdilou]

They do it because they only accept kids that are proven and then kick out the ones who are under-performing. It's easy to be at the top when you get to pick and choose your clients.

[Deleted]

I like the PA law that says you have to educate your child in these core subjects from ages 8-16. How you do it is your business. You can homeschool, cyber, private or send them to public... but during these years you have to educate them and you have to report to 3 people at least once a year (evaluator, superintendent, usually a doctor because we have to hand in some kind of med stuff every year)...
I think it helps to have a layer of checks.
I don't think formal school should strart before 8, but i'm not sure its enough to not have parents have to report to anyone before a child is 8?... I know i'm paranoid... but work with rural special ed kids for awhile and it will break even your calloused heart... ... but i could see it happening outside the public school system i guess i'm saying, but not outside the PUBLIC system... we need a public social system.

I am not convinved at all that a totally private market would be a good thing for education. Much like health care, there will always be those who cost more to educate, or who can't afford adequate education... and i think its an even greater risk in terms of education... i would hate for the only institutions who were offering 'free' schooling to be extremist religious organizations (of any order)... its not a good situation to contemplate...

... although come to think of it... it might make a good book...

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Extremist religious outfits would have competition. And while I think that the government run schools staffed with tenured, union teachers would last about ten minutes in competition with other schools, I don't think the extremist religious schools would make it, either- and of course this assumes there'd be any at all. But then, that's another reason I really don't like vouchers- I see them only as a means to an end. Eventually, I'd like to see property taxes eliminated because of the principle of the thing- at some point you shouldn't owe anyone any money on your house. Period. You should be able to live completely free of any obligations attached to your primary dwelling place.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

I guess my bottom line is this: Kids: you have 'em, YOU raise 'em. It costs money? Don't have it? Too bad. I'm OK with a PA type system-- but then there's always the temptation of government to tinker with the tests-- it's that same old conflict of interest. What if I were to teach my kids that Abraham Lincoln was a tyrant who violated the Constitution and suspended habeas corpus and put even members of the Maryland legislature behind bars for excercising their right to free speech? What if I were to teach them that Lincoln never 'freed the slaves' but only those slaves in states that were fighting against the union? What if I showed my kids where Lincoln said he'd keep slavery legal if he thought it would preserve the union? You get the idea-- it's that government - education conflict of interest I worry about. The market has a way of determining what people should know, and 'testing' them.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Feb 24, 2011 11:49:34 GMT -5 oped said:

I said MANY beachbum... not all... And i think public school SHOULD be available... I just don't think it means that parents have no choice or responsiblity in the matter... as Paul was saying...

I don't think ANY school should be government run. I think during a transition to a market based system, vouchers would be OK. If we want to continue the system we've got-- we're always going to fail. It's simply not possible for the government to run a school-- we wouldn't let the government run a grocery. We'd all starve.

[swamp]

Feb 24, 2011 22:16:08 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Feb 24, 2011 12:13:15 GMT -5 oped said:

I think the idea that we can educate ALL children to the same standard is doomed for failure... the only standards all kids can meet are low ones...we need to differentiate again, and not call it failure if not all kids can read at a 12th grade level... that shouldn't be EVERYONE's goal...

I tend to agree. I'm pretty radical when you get right down to it.
I'd like to see education more loose knit, and informal at the local- even sub-division, church, mosque, synagog level.

Wait a minute, were you one of the posters complaining about Madrassas on the Sharia law thread? Wouldn't they be raising a generation of terrorists?

[Deleted]

I haven't viewed any of the new science/social studies tests in pa... they started after i got out of public school, and as a home schooler all i'm required to test is math and reading... and they don't really look at the scores all that much... my kids don't have any problem on them, son's last language scores (which i didn't have to test, it just happened to be in the test i chose) had some lower subtests... they don't say a word... Its not like they have 100 above average... again i think its just a measure for making sure you are doing something, in addition to the portfolio/evaluation measures.

I just can't fault innocent children for being brought into this world... they didn't ask to be. I couldn't abide to live in an industrialized country with such wealth and know that it just abandoned its children to whatever fate they were born to... One of the reasons we have the limitied mobility we do have it because of access to education and learning outside of the family norm.

Again... people talk about 'government' like its this foreign entitiy... MY government includes lots of ways in which I can influence it... do i like the ability of people in Texas to influence what gets put in my history books? Not really... that's one reason i'd like things kept local ... something you have even MORE influence over...

And parents still have choice... they were doing some kind of 'new math' when i was in 3rd grade... some kind of weird sounds used for memorization... my dad said... no she'll go to the library and write down her math facts until she remembers them... and that's what i did... its not like you don't have any voice or power...

Public schools probably won't make it in a voucher system... like the government health care system again... they'll end up with all of the most needy, special ed, troubled kids, ultra poor... and no money...

When i say extremist schools... there will be poor people, and selfish people, who will not be able to/want to afford to send their kids to school... but when some extremist group moves in and offered to take them for free... wow... problem solved... and a whole new little 'army for the cause'...

And you do need the children Paul... they are the future citizens... community SHOULD have some say over how they are educated, because they are the future voters, tax payers, decision maker, workers... and we as a society NEED them to be healthy, intelligent, and at least basically educated... frankly, i'd rather MY government... which i have a stake in and can help influence, decide what people should know... rather than the pope, or some islamic extremist, or a corporation who just wants good drones who won't ask for much, etc. etc...