billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Feb 17, 2014 13:12:08 GMT -5
Welcome to capitalism.
You'll find lots of examples, if you look, of people buying commodities such as labor... I think it is a good thing to remind those who buy that labor is more than just a commodity. It is a human being.
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Lizard King
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Post by Lizard King on Feb 17, 2014 13:25:24 GMT -5
Being more than just a commodity doesn't make it less of a commodity. It's just comforting for the commodities in question to frame it differently.
Property rights begin with the physical self. We are our own property; our labor has value because we attach a value to the partial surrender of our property rights inherent to the giving of that labor to an employer.
Individuals almost always constitute exceptions to this general rule, but it remains paradoxically the case that people in general are far less deserving of the kind of reverence we accord the notional "human being" in this kind of connection. A human being is the least efficient means of procuring labor there is: that we preferentially employ human beings over the alternatives is itself a dignity.
Which all sounds like I disagree with you, although I deplore the dehumanizing aspect of incorporation as strongly as anybody. I think businesses and the societies in which they operate are both benefited immeasurably by empowering and enabling their human capital, but I don't think there's any innately deserved reward for being human, with all its attendant frailties and failings. There's a certain truth to the assertion that a man who will work for $7 an hour is worth $7 an hour, and the authority of that assertion comes from the worker himself who accepts those conditions.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Feb 17, 2014 14:07:36 GMT -5
Being more than just a commodity doesn't make it less of a commodity.
huh?
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Lizard King
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Post by Lizard King on Feb 17, 2014 14:40:10 GMT -5
Being more than just a commodity doesn't make it less of a commodity.
huh? Let us suppose that a shed, in addition to being a shed, is a reformed boat.
www.theguardian.com/uk/2005/dec/06/arts.turnerprize2005
The subtlety inherent in its dual nature, as a thing-in-itself as well as a thing-in-the-process-of-art, won artist Simon Starling the Turner Prize in 2005.
A man may be a commodity without being merely a commodity; a man may be a free-willed member of the kingdom of ends, and remain a commodity withal. A slave is no less a man than his master; but he is certainly less a master.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2014 15:42:00 GMT -5
... But it isn't my job to tell a women to aim higher and I find it offensive that anyone thinks the women isn't soley responsible for her career, salary a d future. ... For the people who fall under my supervision in the work environment, I think it is my job to work with them to advance their careers, get the best salary that can be gotten, and work towards a better future with them. I wish for them to do the same for me. YMMV I think it is my job to work with them to advance their careers yes get the best salary that can be gotten no and work towards a better future with them. of course but again....if you are their manager, and you are GIVING away the store, then shame on you you are not their friend, or their father.....you are their BOSS and the bosses job is to get the most out of his/her people while keeping expenses in check the bottom line is your GOAL.....and if not, you shouldnt be the manager
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Feb 17, 2014 15:43:06 GMT -5
Let us suppose that a shed, in addition to being a shed, is a reformed boat.
www.theguardian.com/uk/2005/dec/06/arts.turnerprize2005
The subtlety inherent in its dual nature, as a thing-in-itself as well as a thing-in-the-process-of-art, won artist Simon Starling the Turner Prize in 2005.
A man may be a commodity without being merely a commodity; a man may be a free-willed member of the kingdom of ends, and remain a commodity withal. A slave is no less a man than his master; but he is certainly less a master.
i don't think a person is ever a commodity. his labor may or may not be, depending on how unique it is. but i will freely admit that this is a BELIEF.
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Lizard King
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Post by Lizard King on Feb 18, 2014 7:52:42 GMT -5
I hope it's understood anything anybody says on here represents a belief - perhaps not just a belief, but always at base a belief.
You and I have differing views on the nature of property rights. I think you put more emphasis on those rights as granted by the sovereign state, and I put more emphasis on them as claimed by the sovereign will.
I believe people use each other all the time, and in most cases consider one another in terms of means rather than ends far too often. But mine is a bleak worldview
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Feb 18, 2014 10:13:52 GMT -5
I hope it's understood anything anybody says on here represents a belief - perhaps not just a belief, but always at base a belief.
You and I have differing views on the nature of property rights. I think you put more emphasis on those rights as granted by the sovereign state, and I put more emphasis on them as claimed by the sovereign will.
I believe people use each other all the time, and in most cases consider one another in terms of means rather than ends far too often. But mine is a bleak worldview
i think i use the word differently than you and most other people. for me, a belief is an article of faith. it requires no proof. in fact, proof diminishes belief, because with proof, you don't need to believe, you can deduce it. now, if you pressure me, i will admit that it is sort of a continuum of belief -vs- science. on one end you have solid belief with no proof, and on the other end you have solid proof with no belief, and inbetween, it is much grayer, with some of each.....but i digress.
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Lizard King
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Post by Lizard King on Feb 18, 2014 10:30:24 GMT -5
That makes sense, actually. I'd say the difference between an assertion based on faith and one based on proof is the degree of hubris attached, in that 'proof' in context becomes 'reasonable belief in the low probability of contradictory data in future trials,' but I'm an irrealist.
On the general point that faith which requires confirmation is not really faith, I agree fully.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Feb 18, 2014 10:31:55 GMT -5
That makes sense, actually. I'd say the difference between an assertion based on faith and one based on proof is the degree of hubris attached, in that 'proof' in context becomes 'reasonable belief in the low probability of contradictory data in future trials,' but I'm an irrealist.
On the general point that faith which requires confirmation is not really faith, I agree fully.
that's good, because i have spent a lot of time thinking about this issue. i would hate to think that i wasted all of it.
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Lizard King
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Post by Lizard King on Feb 18, 2014 10:48:31 GMT -5
The Prophet, pbuh, opined that his people could not agree on error.
I have perhaps a more jaundiced view of humanity
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Feb 19, 2014 9:28:18 GMT -5
Not in my experience. Perhaps you're not annoying them enough? Haha.. In my personal experience being a woman, I am sweet and kind and patient with everyone right up until they get on my last nerve, at which point the inner bitch comes out and sets fire to the place. 99% of the population, IRL, only ever see the nice happyhoix. Those that see the inner bitch regret it. I don't want to speak for all women, but I think a lot of us are that way - trained by society to be nice and kind, but capable of being fierce. If you are seeing a lot of inner bitches, possibly you're getting on a lot of women's last nerves
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Lizard King
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Post by Lizard King on Feb 19, 2014 9:33:52 GMT -5
I honestly don't think I do (see a lot of inner bitches, that is; I'm pretty sure I get on a lot of last nerves). I see some snark, but not only from women and never when I'm not throwing some out myself. You get what you give, y'know?
I find virtues in conflict of certain kinds within certain parameters. I've found women quite as capable of embodying those particular virtues as men
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2014 9:36:53 GMT -5
Not in my experience. Perhaps you're not annoying them enough? Haha.. In my personal experience being a woman, I am sweet and kind and patient with everyone right up until they get on my last nerve, at which point the inner bitch comes out and sets fire to the place. 99% of the population, IRL, only ever see the nice happyhoix. Those that see the inner bitch regret it. I don't want to speak for all women, but I think a lot of us are that way - trained by society to be nice and kind, but capable of being fierce. If you are seeing a lot of inner bitches, possibly you're getting on a lot of women's last nerves being in the car business for nearly 30 years now, i have had the displeasure to meet a few of the inner bitches as you call them but i have seen the same with men over the years people so fed up with the car they purchased, they they feel like driving it through the showroom window would be a fitting end most of the time, i was able to help with the problem.....a few times....not as far as employees, not once has that happened to me in all the years you sound like you have a very long fuse....as i do very few every get to see the fireworks.....good thing as they can be quite revelationary
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Feb 19, 2014 9:37:46 GMT -5
For the people who fall under my supervision in the work environment, I think it is my job to work with them to advance their careers, get the best salary that can be gotten, and work towards a better future with them. I wish for them to do the same for me. YMMV I think it is my job to work with them to advance their careers yes get the best salary that can be gotten no and work towards a better future with them. of course but again....if you are their manager, and you are GIVING away the store, then shame on you you are not their friend, or their father.....you are their BOSS and the bosses job is to get the most out of his/her people while keeping expenses in check the bottom line is your GOAL.....and if not, you shouldnt be the manager If you try to always pay the lowest salary your employees will accept, you can expect your employees to always have one eye open for a better paying job to come along. THis may be fine if you work in the fast food industry where humans are almost interchangable, but if you have jobs that require a certain skill set combined with a long training period, you don't want to become the training ground for other people's good employees. Once when I was just starting out, the HR person told me my I was earning as much as I would ever earn in my current position, and he didn't need to raise my salary because he didn't believe I could find a comparable job in the small town where this company was located. Six months later I had found a job with a $5000 increase per year in a nearby city and was gone, leaving the HR person to try to find someone to replace me in a small town with a small pool of qualified candidates. I know you say you've had people who've worked for you for 25 years, so you must pay a decent wage, but employers who always attempt to get the cheapest labor end up with employees who don't stay very long, and that may or may not be a problem for them.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2014 9:48:42 GMT -5
If you try to always pay the lowest salary your employees will accept, you can expect your employees to always have one eye open for a better paying job to come along. THis may be fine if you work in the fast food industry where humans are almost interchangable, but if you have jobs that require a certain skill set combined with a long training period, you don't want to become the training ground for other people's good employees.
almost every job here has a very unique skillset......and the competition for "good employees" is and always has been quite fierce in this area
when i advertise for a position, i know the exact range i am willing to pay for that job.....because i know the parameters of the same jobs around the beltway
so for example, my advertising assistant's salary range may be 38k-50k depending on experience, education, etc
if the candidate meets what i want, i will probably go 42-44k.....if they meet most 38-42k......
rarely do i lose an employee to a competitor over pay......
but i also will not give 50k to someone who doesnt ask for it......
there is a fine line between paying fair market good wages, and underpaying and undervaluing your employees
i try never to do the second......but that doesnt mean i have to give up the house
the art of negotiation is always a win/win for both sides
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formerroomate99
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Post by formerroomate99 on Feb 23, 2014 20:24:07 GMT -5
One upside of the whole 'sucking at negotiating' is that, all things being equal, if an employer has to lay of one of two equally productive employees, the higher paid one will likely be the one to get the boot.
At this point in my career, I think that the vast majority of employers are only concerned about fair pay and employee career development as far as it aligns with their objectives. They don't want to have disruptive levels of turnover or get a bad reputation and want the employees who stick around to become more productive. I honestly don't think I'll ever feel the kind of loyalty to a company to make me take down my profile on the job sites or stop taking calls from headhunters. One change in management can turn even the best company into a pit.
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