zibazinski
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 24, 2010 16:12:50 GMT -5
Posts: 47,910
|
Post by zibazinski on Feb 16, 2014 17:35:56 GMT -5
That's why teaching salaries went down.
|
|
Miss Tequila
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 10:13:45 GMT -5
Posts: 20,602
|
Post by Miss Tequila on Feb 16, 2014 17:44:37 GMT -5
... what my point was....which you so blatantly disregarded, was that i rarely have women tell me those things i do have males tell me they are worth more.....and why ... Not sure how i "blatantly disregarded" what i constantly reference. Employee "A" is told they will get a 2.5% raise and they say "okay". Employee "B" is told the same and they say "Wait a minute. I deserve 4% because ..." They end up with 3.25%. If over time those who do as Employee "B" did are predominately male and those who do has Employee "A" did are predominately female, there will develop a wage disparity. The Employer could choose to say "Let's discuss what percentage raise is appropriate." This approach would be less likely to lead to wage disparity by gender. Of course, this makes no difference if the Employer feels the answer to wage disparity is that women just need to grow some balls. I am a woman so I think I am qualified to comment on this. But yes, if women can't negotiate then their lower pay is all in them. We typically set a range if pay when we hire. We start with the minimum and leave wiggle room up to the max. From experiende incan say that women do tend to take the lower salary while men tend to negotiate. But it isn't my job to tell a women to aim higher and I find it offensive that anyone thinks the women isn't soley responsible for her career, salary a d future. I am a woman and I have no problem negotiating my starting salary, negotiating raises or looking for a new job if I'm not paid what I believe I'm worth.
|
|
Miss Tequila
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 10:13:45 GMT -5
Posts: 20,602
|
Post by Miss Tequila on Feb 16, 2014 17:46:41 GMT -5
I wonder since so many women are now going into accounting, if the pay will go down? I can't speak for all states but it PA, you now have to have 5 years of college credits to sit for the CPA exam. I will have to do some research but I would guess that would decrease the number of people majoring in accounting
|
|
zibazinski
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 24, 2010 16:12:50 GMT -5
Posts: 47,910
|
Post by zibazinski on Feb 16, 2014 17:49:09 GMT -5
It has changed to that over the years but a lot of degrees, like physical therapy, is now also a 5 year program whereas it used to be 4.
|
|
formerroomate99
Junior Associate
Joined: Sept 12, 2011 13:33:12 GMT -5
Posts: 7,381
|
Post by formerroomate99 on Feb 16, 2014 18:02:33 GMT -5
Women who are firm and outspoken are called 'bitchy', which is a negative thing. Men who are firm and outspoken are called 'assertive' which is a positive thing. I had a male VP tell me once I needed to learn how to be 'nice.' I would be willing to bet you $1000 he never once told a male co-worker that. When I argued a point with him, he would call me 'hysterical' - also not something he ever called a male co-worker. Any suggestions I made he immediately shot down. Then a day or two later, he would make the same suggestion, like he just thought it up himself, and be very proud of his wonderful idea. I get that. And I'm not denying that women can't really be assertive in the same way as men. But I also think you're dreaming if you think that guys don't routinely find themselves in similar situations. Plenty of guys have their ideas shot down and then stolen. That used to happen to my father all the time. In my career, there have been several cases where the problem I was having that I thought was a gender thing (since I was often the only female involved) was something else entirely. And it's not like men don't have to deal with their own sets of double standards.
|
|
formerroomate99
Junior Associate
Joined: Sept 12, 2011 13:33:12 GMT -5
Posts: 7,381
|
Post by formerroomate99 on Feb 16, 2014 18:15:51 GMT -5
Not sure how i "blatantly disregarded" what i constantly reference. Employee "A" is told they will get a 2.5% raise and they say "okay". Employee "B" is told the same and they say "Wait a minute. I deserve 4% because ..." They end up with 3.25%. If over time those who do as Employee "B" did are predominately male and those who do has Employee "A" did are predominately female, there will develop a wage disparity. The Employer could choose to say "Let's discuss what percentage raise is appropriate." This approach would be less likely to lead to wage disparity by gender. Of course, this makes no difference if the Employer feels the answer to wage disparity is that women just need to grow some balls. I am a woman so I think I am qualified to comment on this. But yes, if women can't negotiate then their lower pay is all in them. We typically set a range if pay when we hire. We start with the minimum and leave wiggle room up to the max. From experiende incan say that women do tend to take the lower salary while men tend to negotiate. But it isn't my job to tell a women to aim higher and I find it offensive that anyone thinks the women isn't soley responsible for her career, salary a d future. I am a woman and I have no problem negotiating my starting salary, negotiating raises or looking for a new job if I'm not paid what I believe I'm worth. Same here. But it took me much longer than it should have for an assertive girl like me to get to that point. I think the biggest problem is that women really don't think of themselves as breadwinners, and therefore won't make the same sacrifices that men will make in order to advance their careers.
|
|
Miss Tequila
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 10:13:45 GMT -5
Posts: 20,602
|
Post by Miss Tequila on Feb 16, 2014 18:21:13 GMT -5
It has changed to that over the years but a lot of degrees, like physical therapy, is now also a 5 year program whereas it used to be 4. Physical therapy has been a 5 year program since I was in school (at least in Pa). Accounting only switch recently. I am guessing it will at least have some kind of an impact but that is a guess. I have t looked up any stats, yet.
|
|
zibazinski
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 24, 2010 16:12:50 GMT -5
Posts: 47,910
|
Post by zibazinski on Feb 16, 2014 18:25:49 GMT -5
I don't know when PT changed but it was 4 year in the 80s.
|
|
Miss Tequila
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 10:13:45 GMT -5
Posts: 20,602
|
Post by Miss Tequila on Feb 16, 2014 18:26:13 GMT -5
... and finally, we tell them the one absolute basic rule "you cant receive, if you never ask" IM(not so)HO, a good boss observes and gives appropriate raises without forcing the person to ask. And a confident person goes into an interview knowing what they are worth and will negotiate or walk away (I have). If you suck at negotiating you are screwed from the get go. Right now I need to hire a financial analyst. The pay range is between $60k and $70k. I start at the minimum and to to the maximum. If the person takes the $60k it will take them years to get to the $70k, which was the top I was willing to go.
|
|
Miss Tequila
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 10:13:45 GMT -5
Posts: 20,602
|
Post by Miss Tequila on Feb 16, 2014 18:26:41 GMT -5
I don't know when PT changed but it was 4 year in the 80s. I wonder if that is state specific
|
|
zibazinski
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 24, 2010 16:12:50 GMT -5
Posts: 47,910
|
Post by zibazinski on Feb 16, 2014 18:27:57 GMT -5
Not sure. Indiana, Michigan, and Florida were all 4 year programs.
|
|
formerroomate99
Junior Associate
Joined: Sept 12, 2011 13:33:12 GMT -5
Posts: 7,381
|
Post by formerroomate99 on Feb 16, 2014 18:40:15 GMT -5
Any profession that has more people going into it than the number of openings is going to have crap pay.
For example, back in the bad old days, when women weren't allowed to go onto most professions, nurses made crap pay. Then, as women got more opportunities, the number of women going into that profession plummeted and the pay went up. The profession is still overwhelmingly female, but as long as there are more openings than qualified candidates, the pay will stay high.
We live in a society that doesn't really expect much from fathers. It is as common as dirt for women to end up supporting children on their own. So why the hell would any women who wants a family go into an occupation that has historically been poorly paid? I just don't get it.
|
|
billisonboard
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 22:45:44 GMT -5
Posts: 38,227
Member is Online
|
Post by billisonboard on Feb 16, 2014 19:12:20 GMT -5
... But it isn't my job to tell a women to aim higher and I find it offensive that anyone thinks the women isn't soley responsible for her career, salary a d future. ... For the people who fall under my supervision in the work environment, I think it is my job to work with them to advance their careers, get the best salary that can be gotten, and work towards a better future with them. I wish for them to do the same for me. YMMV
|
|
billisonboard
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 22:45:44 GMT -5
Posts: 38,227
Member is Online
|
Post by billisonboard on Feb 16, 2014 19:16:56 GMT -5
IM(not so)HO, a good boss observes and gives appropriate raises without forcing the person to ask. And a confident person goes into an interview knowing what they are worth and will negotiate or walk away (I have). If you suck at negotiating you are screwed from the get go. Right now I need to hire a financial analyst. The pay range is between $60k and $70k. I start at the minimum and to to the maximum. If the person takes the $60k it will take them years to get to the $70k, which was the top I was willing to go. Low balling an employee from the start isn't where I start my relationship with a potential hire. I start at what I think the person is worth and pretty much stick to that.
|
|
Miss Tequila
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 10:13:45 GMT -5
Posts: 20,602
|
Post by Miss Tequila on Feb 16, 2014 19:29:28 GMT -5
And a confident person goes into an interview knowing what they are worth and will negotiate or walk away (I have). If you suck at negotiating you are screwed from the get go. Right now I need to hire a financial analyst. The pay range is between $60k and $70k. I start at the minimum and to to the maximum. If the person takes the $60k it will take them years to get to the $70k, which was the top I was willing to go. Low balling an employee from the start isn't where I start my relationship with a potential hire. I start at what I think the person is worth and pretty much stick to that. You are not the norm. At my old firm a d my current employer, each position has a salary range. If you accept the initial offer you are taking the low end.
|
|
Miss Tequila
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 10:13:45 GMT -5
Posts: 20,602
|
Post by Miss Tequila on Feb 16, 2014 19:34:37 GMT -5
... But it isn't my job to tell a women to aim higher and I find it offensive that anyone thinks the women isn't soley responsible for her career, salary a d future. ... For the people who fall under my supervision in the work environment, I think it is my job to work with them to advance their careers, get the best salary that can be gotten, and work towards a better future with them. I wish for them to do the same for me. YMMV My point is that if a woman comes in at a lower salary because she can't negotiate, she will never catch up. We typically get a pool of money to distribute based in the prior year salaries (we are a very big company). If I think someone is truly underpaid it is a huge corporate nightmare to get their salary increased beyond the 3% to 4% a year.
|
|
billisonboard
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 22:45:44 GMT -5
Posts: 38,227
Member is Online
|
Post by billisonboard on Feb 16, 2014 19:35:11 GMT -5
... I start at the minimum and to to the maximum. ... Low balling an employee from the start isn't where I start my relationship with a potential hire. I start at what I think the person is worth and pretty much stick to that. You are not the norm. ... True. If I think that the norm sucks, I avoid it. So do you think the norm in this situation is the best way to treat a potential new hire?
|
|
Miss Tequila
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 10:13:45 GMT -5
Posts: 20,602
|
Post by Miss Tequila on Feb 16, 2014 19:37:55 GMT -5
... I start at the minimum and to to the maximum. ... You are not the norm. ... True. If I think that the norm sucks, I avoid it. So do you think the norm in this situation is the best way to treat a potential new hire? Yes. If you can't negotiate a deal for yourself you lack the back bine needed to really succeed in the corporate world.
|
|
billisonboard
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 22:45:44 GMT -5
Posts: 38,227
Member is Online
|
Post by billisonboard on Feb 16, 2014 19:38:05 GMT -5
For the people who fall under my supervision in the work environment, I think it is my job to work with them to advance their careers, get the best salary that can be gotten, and work towards a better future with them. I wish for them to do the same for me. YMMV My point is that if a woman comes in at a lower salary because she can't negotiate, she will never catch up. We typically get a pool of money to distribute based in the prior year salaries (we are a very big company). If I think someone is truly underpaid it is a huge corporate nightmare to get their salary increased beyond the 3% to 4% a year. So if you start them at what you truly believe is the pay that they should be starting at instead of seeing if they will take the minimum, you would be working to solve this huge corporate nightmare for someone who is working for you. True?
|
|
Miss Tequila
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 10:13:45 GMT -5
Posts: 20,602
|
Post by Miss Tequila on Feb 16, 2014 19:40:55 GMT -5
My point is that if a woman comes in at a lower salary because she can't negotiate, she will never catch up. We typically get a pool of money to distribute based in the prior year salaries (we are a very big company). If I think someone is truly underpaid it is a huge corporate nightmare to get their salary increased beyond the 3% to 4% a year. So if you start them at what you truly believe is the pay that they should be starting at instead of seeing if they will take the minimum, you would be working to solve this huge corporate nightmare for someone who is working for you. True? I believe each position has a range. It isn't like I'm thinking that the financial analyst position is worth $64,400....I believe it to be worth between $60k and $70k. If no one takes the position even if I go up to $70k, then the position is worth more and I need to up the salary (which is a nightmare because it has to go back through the levels for approval). If I offer $60 k and the person takes it, then it is worth $60k. The fact that I would have gone to $70k means nothing.
|
|
billisonboard
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 22:45:44 GMT -5
Posts: 38,227
Member is Online
|
Post by billisonboard on Feb 16, 2014 19:41:51 GMT -5
True. If I think that the norm sucks, I avoid it. So do you think the norm in this situation is the best way to treat a potential new hire? Yes. If you can't negotiate a deal for yourself you lack the back bine needed to really succeed in the corporate world. So are interpersonal negotiating skills important for a financial analyst?
|
|
Miss Tequila
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 10:13:45 GMT -5
Posts: 20,602
|
Post by Miss Tequila on Feb 16, 2014 19:59:46 GMT -5
Yes. If you can't negotiate a deal for yourself you lack the back bine needed to really succeed in the corporate world. So are interpersonal negotiating skills important for a financial analyst? Yes. More so the confidence that would lead to interpersonal negotiating.
|
|
billisonboard
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 22:45:44 GMT -5
Posts: 38,227
Member is Online
|
Post by billisonboard on Feb 16, 2014 20:04:22 GMT -5
So if you start them at what you truly believe is the pay that they should be starting at instead of seeing if they will take the minimum, you would be working to solve this huge corporate nightmare for someone who is working for you. True? I believe each position has a range. It isn't like I'm thinking that the financial analyst position is worth $64,400....I believe it to be worth between $60k and $70k. If no one takes the position even if I go up to $70k, then the position is worth more and I need to up the salary (which is a nightmare because it has to go back through the levels for approval). If I offer $60 k and the person takes it, then it is worth $60k. The fact that I would have gone to $70k means nothing. I know that each position that I hire for has a wage range and a set of skills required to do the job. Each person who applies has a set of skills and experience which makes them more or less able to do the job well walking in the door. I analyze where in the range the skill set/experience possessed places them on their ability to get the job done well and pay accordingly.
|
|
Miss Tequila
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 10:13:45 GMT -5
Posts: 20,602
|
Post by Miss Tequila on Feb 16, 2014 20:08:40 GMT -5
I believe each position has a range. It isn't like I'm thinking that the financial analyst position is worth $64,400....I believe it to be worth between $60k and $70k. If no one takes the position even if I go up to $70k, then the position is worth more and I need to up the salary (which is a nightmare because it has to go back through the levels for approval). If I offer $60 k and the person takes it, then it is worth $60k. The fact that I would have gone to $70k means nothing. I know that each position that I hire for has a wage range and a set of skills required to do the job. Each person who applies has a set of skills and experience which makes them more or less able to do the job well walking in the door. I analyze where in the range the skill set/experience possessed places them on their ability to get the job done well and pay accordingly. We can go round and round. It is not a company's job to say "poor Suzy can't negotiate so we need to offer her more". If a person takes the job that I offer at $60k then it is worth $60k. If it was worth more, the person would negotiate, right?
|
|
billisonboard
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 22:45:44 GMT -5
Posts: 38,227
Member is Online
|
Post by billisonboard on Feb 16, 2014 21:13:26 GMT -5
... We can go round and round. It is not a company's job to say "poor Suzy ..." Fully agree. It is my job to determine that Suzy will provide "X" value if she is in the position so we will pay her that amount. And yes, we can go around as many times as you wish.
|
|
Miss Tequila
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 10:13:45 GMT -5
Posts: 20,602
|
Post by Miss Tequila on Feb 16, 2014 21:18:42 GMT -5
... We can go round and round. It is not a company's job to say "poor Suzy ..." Fully agree. It is my job to determine that Suzy will provide "X" value if she is in the position so we will pay her that amount. And yes, we can go around as many times as you wish. I don't wish to continue to go round and round. It gets boring! I just hate that any person would think a company needs to look out for women because they suck at negotiating. That is so sexist and truly offends me. I negotiated a $10k bump in my staring salary at my last job and this year got a $5k one time bonus because I took on a big project and kicked ass. I approached my boss with the facts and he got me the bonus. That is separate from the regular bonus that I will get in the next few weeks. This is compensation I would not have if I didn't negotiate for it.
|
|
billisonboard
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 22:45:44 GMT -5
Posts: 38,227
Member is Online
|
Post by billisonboard on Feb 16, 2014 22:12:29 GMT -5
.. I just hate that any person would think a company needs to look out for women because they suck at negotiating. That is so sexist and truly offends me. ... I would hate that also. However I think it is great when a supervisor looks out for his/her underlings of whichever gender and works to get them the compensation that their contribution warrants.
|
|
Miss Tequila
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 10:13:45 GMT -5
Posts: 20,602
|
Post by Miss Tequila on Feb 16, 2014 22:21:33 GMT -5
.. I just hate that any person would think a company needs to look out for women because they suck at negotiating. That is so sexist and truly offends me. ... I would hate that also. However I think it is great when a supervisor looks out for his/her underlings of whichever gender and works to get them the compensation that their contribution warrants. I'm not disagreeing with that. But I also know the reality of the corporate world (at least my company). Unless you are getting promoted, the annual raises cap out at around 4%. It is just a reality that if you come in at a lower salary you are pretty much screwed. We only have so much to divy out in the way of raises.
|
|
billisonboard
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 22:45:44 GMT -5
Posts: 38,227
Member is Online
|
Post by billisonboard on Feb 16, 2014 22:43:16 GMT -5
I would hate that also. However I think it is great when a supervisor looks out for his/her underlings of whichever gender and works to get them the compensation that their contribution warrants. I'm not disagreeing with that. But I also know the reality of the corporate world (at least my company). Unless you are getting promoted, the annual raises cap out at around 4%. It is just a reality that if you come in at a lower salary you are pretty much screwed. We only have so much to divy out in the way of raises. Which is why I question your stated practice of offering the minimum of the possible range and forcing the potential hire to negotiate for more. Making that offer with the knowledge that, if the person accepts it, they are "pretty much screwed" is not something I would be comfortable doing. But I am not attempting to climb a corporate ladder.
|
|
Lizard King
Senior Member
It's an anagram, you know.
Joined: Nov 6, 2013 16:22:24 GMT -5
Posts: 2,589
Favorite Drink: La Fee Verte
|
Post by Lizard King on Feb 17, 2014 10:10:15 GMT -5
Welcome to capitalism.
You'll find lots of examples, if you look, of people buying commodities such as labor as cheaply as the market will allow, and selling them as expensively as the market will allow.
A job whose average compensation ranges from $50k - $120k per annum may well be advertised by some employer anywhere within or even beyond those ranges. A savvy worker in that field won't take the job at $35k, unless maybe she's desperate because she's been out of work for months and she can't afford to relocate somewhere that better rewards her skills.
A worker who was paid $85k in her last job before the company hit headwinds and she got downsized may well feel that a mere $75k for a comparable position in another company managing their payroll differently isn't worth her time, and the employer may well refuse her demands for a pay hike when the guy interviewing after her is happy to take a $15k raise on HIS last position for that same $75k.
It is quite absurd to expect the HR division of any company to minutely second-guess the needs, capacities, and expectations of every employee too meek to express them directly. In a competitive marketplace, it's also unnecessary. This is why availability of positions is so important: higher job availability translates into greater negotiating power for the worker. If you're the only widgetmaker in a 200-mile radius, your widgetmaking drones have little alternative to the pittance you offer them. If you're competing with WidgetCo and WidgetMart down the road, you have to do better.
|
|