deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Feb 22, 2011 22:21:05 GMT -5
This is not Obama's responsibility; nor, is it really the UN's responsibility. While the UN is, ultimately, responsible for events in international waters, those who decide to venture into areas like this have responsibility, too. They are responsible for themselves, and for the results of their decisions. It's not like people haven't been warned to stay out of those waters. They have. They've been warned time, and time again. If you've been warned and decide to ignore the warning, you're flouting your safety in the face of danger. That's exactly what these people did. Yes, they're victims, but they became victims due to their own choices. Possible the yacht your correct, not sure how close they were to be picked up like that but for commercial shipping, to not go close like that, it is a very attractive route to get from A to B, length of voyage, which translates into time and costs which in any business is important. From what I understand, it now is not small craft coming out from shore but mother ships venturing out far from shore taking the small craft with them to attack shipping so it seems that the enemy, the pirates are going out to their victims instead of as in the past, the civilians/victems coming to them. Not knowing the laws of the maritime, possible the laws have to rewritten with these folk , the Pirates, in mind. Possible different rules of engagement have to be considered. Mother ships being boarded, if resist, sunk as enemy of war, if contraband, weapons, fast craft foundt on board, that is enough for conviction and cooperation with all nations as to how to handle these people till it is gotten across to those who are involved in the business, this business is now no longer viable, back to the drawing board.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Feb 22, 2011 22:25:52 GMT -5
Commercial shipping is a whole different ballgame. They're in there for the money and the risks they take are measured against the return expected on the cargo. Much of the commercial shipping is needed materials, as well. Yachts, on the other hand ...
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Feb 22, 2011 22:36:52 GMT -5
Commercial shipping is a whole different ballgame. They're in there for the money and the risks they take are measured against the return expected on the cargo. Much of the commercial shipping is needed materials, as well. Yachts, on the other hand ... Agree...haven't really read the story, just heard the aftermath, will go look for it.
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Post by marjar on Feb 22, 2011 23:21:32 GMT -5
My sympathies to the families, but I'm in agreement with mmhmm on this one.
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Post by privateinvestor on Feb 23, 2011 13:03:19 GMT -5
15 pirates may face U.S. trial for 4 deaths American hostages were shot and killed on their hijacked yacht NAIROBI, Kenya — A U.S. military spokesman said Wednesday it was possible that 15 pirates detained after the killing of four American yacht enthusiasts could be sent to the United States to face trial. The military, FBI and Justice Department are working on the next steps for the pirates, said Bob Prucha, a spokesman for U.S. Central Command in Florida. The 15 are currently being held on the aircraft carrier USS Enterprise, which is in the waters off East Africa. A pirate aboard the hijacked yacht Quest on Tuesday fired a rocket-propelled grenade at a U.S. warship that had responded to last Friday's hijacking. Then gunfire broke out aboard the yacht. When Navy special forces reached the Quest, they found the four American hostages had been shot and killed. The FBI is investigating the killings of Phyllis Macay and Bob Riggle of Seattle, Washington, and Jean and Scott Adam of Marina del Rey, near Los Angeles, who had made their home aboard their 58-foot yacht Quest since December 2004. Below: x Jump to text A U.S. military spokesman said Wednesday it www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41734970/ns/world_news-africa/?GT1=43001
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Feb 23, 2011 13:47:57 GMT -5
15 pirates may face U.S. trial for 4 deaths American hostages were shot and killed on their hijacked yacht NAIROBI, Kenya — A U.S. military spokesman said Wednesday it was possible that 15 pirates detained after the killing of four American yacht enthusiasts could be sent to the United States to face trial. The military, FBI and Justice Department are working on the next steps for the pirates, said Bob Prucha, a spokesman for U.S. Central Command in Florida. The 15 are currently being held on the aircraft carrier USS Enterprise, which is in the waters off East Africa. A pirate aboard the hijacked yacht Quest on Tuesday fired a rocket-propelled grenade at a U.S. warship that had responded to last Friday's hijacking. Then gunfire broke out aboard the yacht. When Navy special forces reached the Quest, they found the four American hostages had been shot and killed. The FBI is investigating the killings of Phyllis Macay and Bob Riggle of Seattle, Washington, and Jean and Scott Adam of Marina del Rey, near Los Angeles, who had made their home aboard their 58-foot yacht Quest since December 2004. Below: x Jump to text A U.S. military spokesman said Wednesday it www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41734970/ns/world_news-africa/?GT1=43001No...convene a military court on board the ship...fly in defense attorneys from where ever...have the trial ....if not guilty, arrange transportation back to home land, if guilty then send to US Prison..if guilty and sentenced to death..have review of sentence done quickly..still found guilty and sentence in order..then carry out the sentence..whether by firing squad, or hanging..personally I prefer hanging..but would let presiding Judge determine that, how it would effect crew moral and technical situations to be considered and burial at sea..after proper religious ceremonies are carried out. I would think, tops, two weeks from beginning to finish what ever the verdict.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Feb 23, 2011 14:09:35 GMT -5
OK, well firing on a United States' Miliarty Vessel is different. Just shoot them and bait a line behind the ship. They are NOT entitled to a trial of any kind. They are unlawful combatants. They are not protected by the Geneva Conventions, and they are sure as shit not protected by the United States Constitutions. It's not a war-crime to shoot pirates / terrorists / unlawful combatants. It's not a war crime to torture them for information on where their fellow travelers are hiding out. Exterminate them and let's get on with it.
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handyman2
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Post by handyman2 on Feb 23, 2011 14:15:58 GMT -5
Dezi: If found guilty why waste good rope. Just throw them overboard and see if they can swim faster than the sharks. That is what some of them have done to other hostages I understand. The thing is it appears to me is that those making the money off these highjackings are behind the scenes and using a bunch of young men with no hope to do the dirty work and take the risks. They should clearly indentify the mother ships and blow them out of the water. That would raise the stakes for the pirates very high. Brings back memories of the Marines early days of the Halls of Montizuma to the shores of Tripoli and the defeat of the nest of pirates back then.
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Post by privateinvestor on Feb 23, 2011 14:19:21 GMT -5
OK, well firing on a United States' Miliarty Vessel is different. Just shoot them and bait a line behind the ship. They are NOT entitled to a trial of any kind. They are unlawful combatants. They are not protected by the Geneva Conventions, and they are sure as shit not protected by the United States Constitutions. It's not a war-crime to shoot pirates / terrorists / unlawful combatants. It's not a war crime to torture them for information on where their fellow travelers are hiding out. Exterminate them and let's get on with it. Are the Somalia Pirates going to be treated as "Terrorists" or as "Pirates" and what is the UN, USA, or other Countries going to do about this issue off the coast of Africa which now covers @ million miles of ocean..??
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floridayankee
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Post by floridayankee on Feb 23, 2011 14:23:11 GMT -5
Commercial shipping is a whole different ballgame. They're in there for the money and the risks they take are measured against the return expected on the cargo. Much of the commercial shipping is needed materials, as well. Yachts, on the other hand ... What people fail to understand is that this Yacht was off the coast of Oman. It's 375-400 miles from the north coast of Somalia to the south coast of Oman. How far away should they have been?
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Feb 23, 2011 14:24:42 GMT -5
OK, well firing on a United States' Miliarty Vessel is different. Just shoot them and bait a line behind the ship. They are NOT entitled to a trial of any kind. They are unlawful combatants. They are not protected by the Geneva Conventions, and they are sure as shit not protected by the United States Constitutions. It's not a war-crime to shoot pirates / terrorists / unlawful combatants. It's not a war crime to torture them for information on where their fellow travelers are hiding out. Exterminate them and let's get on with it. I disagree , have to give them a trial...just might find some kid was coerced at knife point to be part of the "pirates crew", trial is important...then if found guilty and penalty is death...so be it...mmmm, idea of trailing in back of carrier on a baited line, pick up some good size fresh fish for the crews enjoyment...possible when off duty folk are available and volunteering of course to act as the fisherman , on a crew of 5000, bet lots of "good old boys" who were brought up with a fishing pole in their hands, even teach some of their buddies who haven't had the privilege of such fun activities, mmmm...ok, I can see that being a possibility. Thing is, do we do the service , before or after the use as bait and the fishing. I would opt for before, think after, kinda chewed up, better just to remove fish and cut the lines and let go, but that's my opinion, open for suggestions.
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Post by privateinvestor on Feb 23, 2011 14:35:19 GMT -5
Dezi: If found guilty why waste good rope. Just throw them overboard and see if they can swim faster than the sharks. That is what some of them have done to other hostages I understand. The thing is it appears to me is that those making the money off these highjackings are behind the scenes and using a bunch of young men with no hope to do the dirty work and take the risks. They should clearly indentify the mother ships and blow them out of the water. That would raise the stakes for the pirates very high. Brings back memories of the Marines early days of the Halls of Montizuma to the shores of Tripoli and the defeat of the nest of pirates back then. It should be interesting to see what our response is other than to try the Pirates in a civilain court and give them free legal advice and lawyer them up or let them work out a plea...they are NOT enemy combatants who can be tried in a mlitary court.. but will probably be tried as criminals in our courts...I guess??
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2011 14:40:00 GMT -5
Sounds like a set up for bleeding hearts to haul them in and get some info, bring them to trial, portray them as misguided youths and victims, give them a couple of years, then set them loose to go live in..... maybe Berkeley. I think blowing the motherships out of the water and feeding them all to the sharks is okay. The families of the Pan-Am victims would probably agree with me.
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handyman2
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Post by handyman2 on Feb 23, 2011 14:42:56 GMT -5
PI my guess is that since this was international waters they will be held and tried in the international mari-time courts.
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Post by privateinvestor on Feb 23, 2011 14:56:09 GMT -5
PI my guess is that since this was international waters they will be held and tried in the international mari-time courts. A Somalian Pirate was just tried in one of our courts and received @ 35 years in our Federal prison ....and they fired an APG at our Destroyer plus killed four of our citizens in cold blood so I am not sure if the trial will be handed off to an International Court of not?? But I doubt that Obama will call out the Marines again to go into Somalia and take out all the pirates and their base of operations...they have other things on their plate these days...
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floridayankee
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Post by floridayankee on Feb 23, 2011 15:01:47 GMT -5
They are unlawful combatants. They are not protected by the Geneva Conventions, and they are sure as shit not protected by the United States Constitutions. It's not a war-crime to shoot pirates / terrorists / unlawful combatants. It's not a war crime to torture them for information on where their fellow travelers are hiding out. Exterminate them and let's get on with it. A very narrow group of captured pirates qualify as prisoners of war under the Third Geneva, which also requires that all captured pirates must be treated as prisoners of war until a competent tribunal determines otherwise if a doubt exists as to their status. The Fourth Geneva affords no protection to captured pirates. On the other hand, UNCAT affords captured pirates certain basic protections and limits those states to which the capturing power can turn captured pirates over for trial. Finally, captured pirates are also protected by basic humanitarian law and moral duty. Piracy is uniquely situated in international law: pirates are captured on the high seas outside the territory of every state but are punished under the municipal laws of any state instead of an international court. Piracy is a crime under the municipal laws of many maritime states. Pirates are punished under those statutes rather than international law.
Although pirates are punished under the municipal law of the state that holds them, their capture outside the jurisdiction of a state is made possible by international law. International law defines piracy and calls on every state to suppress it. internationallawobserver.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/protections-afforded-to-captured-pirates.pdf
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Feb 23, 2011 15:34:21 GMT -5
PI my guess is that since this was international waters they will be held and tried in the international mari-time courts. A Somalian Pirate was just tried in one of our courts and received @ 35 years in our Federal prison ....and they fired an APG at our Destroyer plus killed four of our citizens in cold blood so I am not sure if the trial will be handed off to an International Court of not?? But I doubt that Obama will call out the Marines again to go into Somalia and take out all the pirates and their base of operations...they have other things on their plate these days... I would hope not, landing of Marines and all that..if there ever was a failed State this is, we are not going to change that...but if they could identyfy thee real leaders of and where exactly, and if they ar acting against our interests, well.... but I still think actions aainst the mother ships if they are bribnging out the lirrle ones to attack way off shore..why not. If there was a leader of a group that wanted to change what is going on there, to train and arm, away from the area...but I don''t believe there is , just a different same old , same old, so better to stay out of that. I get the feeling if you ever watch some of those prison shows,,the real things..all those people locked up , with all the body building, tatoos , scary dudes..that is what I think of , what Somalia is like. nor sure if that is accurate but in my mind , that is the impression that runs through my mind, a land of predators waiting to pounce on the weak.
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Post by privateinvestor on Feb 23, 2011 18:55:45 GMT -5
The U.S. Municipal Piracy Statute The United States’ municipal piracy statute states: “Whoever, on the high seas, commits the crime of piracy as defined by the law of nations, and is afterwards brought into or found in the United States, shall be imprisoned for life.”102 The current statute, with few changes,103 dates from 1819.104 No one has been prosecuted under the current statute for over 100 years105 and it has received negative treatment from recent commentators.106 Because pirates will probably not be brought to the United States for trial in large numbers to enjoy the rights guaranteed by the United States Constitution,107 the international law governing the treatment of captured pirates is all the more important
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ameiko
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Post by ameiko on Feb 23, 2011 22:44:28 GMT -5
Time to find out where these pirates love to party and turn it to glass. For every American they kill, we will slaughter 100 pirates and their buddies.
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Post by privateinvestor on Feb 24, 2011 8:41:23 GMT -5
Time to find out where these pirates love to party and turn it to glass. For every American they kill, we will slaughter 100 pirates and their buddies. The person in contact with pirate cells said a gun fight had broken out below deck on the Quest, likely over money or the hostages’ fate. American officials theorize this may have been the case. Five minutes after the pirates fired a rocket-propelled grenade at the Sterett, and small arms fire erupted, 15 Navy SEAL commandos stormed the yacht. The hostages were dead or dying. American officials said it was unclear whether they had been executed or killed in the pirates’ cross-fire. Other pirate hostages have died in captivity or during rescue attempts, but there are few, if any, cases of pirates intentionally killing hostages. The commandos shot and killed one pirate and stabbed another. Two other pirates were found dead, apparently killed by their comrades, and 13 surrendered to the Americans. “While the pirates clearly knew, from the beginning of our negotiations, that we were not going to allow the Quest to make shore, they gave no warning, no visible signs whatsoever that the hostages’ lives were in danger,” said the military official. The senior law enforcement official added, “These incidents, by their very nature, often move at a rapid pace which requires difficult decisions in real time.” Jeffrey Gettleman contributed reporting from Nairobi, Kenya. This article, "Seizing of Pirate Chiefs Is Questioned in Somali Killings," first appeared in The New York Times. www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41753342/ns/world_news-the_new_york_times/
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2011 16:18:39 GMT -5
I hope the hostages were not killed by friendly fire... I guess we could get a clue to that if these pirates just disappear from the news.......
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Feb 24, 2011 16:27:39 GMT -5
I hope the hostages were not killed by friendly fire... I guess we could get a clue to that if these pirates just disappear from the news.......
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