Duh- FL welfare/drug testing law ruled unconstitutional

[djAdvocate]

Jan 5, 2014 22:27:05 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

Jan 5, 2014 22:23:06 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

and they are perfectly welcome to do that.  but they will find, if they look into it, is that most places worth living are far more taxing than the US.  which is why that, despite their bluster, the Romney's of the world continue to live here and WHIIIIIIIIIIIIIINE about it, rather than doing something which would harm their assets.  after all- the whining is totally free.  witness this board. 

There are plenty of countries less taxing than the US.

not really, no.  there are very few:

www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2012/10/focus-4

For me, I don't I is that I would have the moxie to up and leave like that.

you are not alone.  they don't either.

Then again, I'm not billionaire status. If I knew I was having a huge windfall ( like the Guy from Facebook-forgot his name)

Severin.  but you are aware that he was FROM Singapore, right?  he moved back there after he lost his job at FB.  his poster child status for the anarchocapitalist right is totally undeserved.

coming and if I got out in time there would be no exit tax. I might consider it.

who woldn't?  but most of us love this country, and it's low taxes, and want to stay here, rather than move to some s(*thole half way around the world just to save a little coin.

[Miss Tequila]

Jan 5, 2014 22:34:22 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Jan 5, 2014 22:27:05 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

There are plenty of countries less taxing than the US.

not really, no.  there are very few:

www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2012/10/focus-4

For me, I don't I is that I would have the moxie to up and leave like that.

you are not alone.  they don't either.

Then again, I'm not billionaire status. If I knew I was having a huge windfall ( like the Guy from Facebook-forgot his name)

Severin.  but you are aware that he was FROM Singapore, right?  he moved back there after he lost his job at FB.  his poster child status for the anarchocapitalist right is totally undeserved.

coming and if I got out in time there would be no exit tax. I might consider it.

who woldn't?  but most of us love this country, and it's low taxes, and want to stay here, rather than move to some s(*thole half way around the world just to save a little coin.

I don't love where the country is headed. I've become a minority and I don't see that changing anytime soon. I would have a bigger issue leaving friends and family than I would the country.

[mtman]

Jan 5, 2014 21:24:16 GMT -5 @lonewolf said:

you know what i find strange about it? conservatives are always talking about how they want the guvmint out of their lives. but they want everyone peeing in a jar to show that THEIR money is not being wasted, creating the most invasive bureaucracy i can think of.

utterly bizarre.

No. What the conservatives want is for the "guvmint" to simply stop taking their tax money and handing it to drug addicts and alcoholics.

Lone....This is a concept that is absolutely foreign to the libs.....Their answer to everything is to throw money at it, with no accountability.

[djAdvocate]

Jan 5, 2014 22:31:51 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

Jan 5, 2014 22:28:09 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

i am not following what NYC gangbangers have to do with the OP.  can you make the connection for me>?

I would like this testing done in my state. We have been infiltrated by gangbabgers from surrounding states. They come here because it is so easy to get benefits.'min addition to residency requirements, I want to see drug testing.

still not following you.  gangbangers are not mentioned in the OP.  what % of welfare recipients do you think they are?

[djAdvocate]

Jan 5, 2014 22:48:41 GMT -5 mtman said:

Jan 5, 2014 21:24:16 GMT -5 @lonewolf said:

No. What the conservatives want is for the "guvmint" to simply stop taking their tax money and handing it to drug addicts and alcoholics.

Lone....This is a concept that is absolutely foreign to the libs.....

no, it isn't.  i asked lone: what should we do with addicts seeking treatment, if they can't afford it?  what should we do with people who are arrested on drug convictions, seeking treatment as an alternative to imprisonment?

Their answer to everything is to throw money at it, with no accountability.

your solution costs more than mine.  who is throwing money around?

[djAdvocate]

Jan 5, 2014 22:35:58 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

Jan 5, 2014 22:34:22 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

who woldn't?  but most of us love this country, and it's low taxes, and want to stay here, rather than move to some s(*thole half way around the world just to save a little coin.

I don't love where the country is headed. I've become a minority and I don't see that changing anytime soon. I would have a bigger issue leaving friends and family than I would the country.

the Romney family has been here for several generations, as well.  being here a long time is an effective counterbalance to all of the blather.  moving around the world, separating yourself from your family, your friends, your heritage- you have to be highly motivated to do that.  when push comes to shove, saving a bit of coin just doesn't compare to that feeling of being totally adrift that you get when you move.

Severin was feeling adrift here in the US, and went home.  and you are right, it is totally natural to do that.  there are many things worth more than money.  a sense that you BELONG somewhere is among them.

[mmhmm]

Jan 5, 2014 22:31:51 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

Jan 5, 2014 22:28:09 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

i am not following what NYC gangbangers have to do with the OP.  can you make the connection for me>?

I would like this testing done in my state. We have been infiltrated by gangbabgers from surrounding states. They come here because it is so easy to get benefits.'min addition to residency requirements, I want to see drug testing.

If it's so easy to get benefits in your state, it sounds to me like you should be more concerned about how your state deals with the issue.  Drug testing isn't your problem.  Failure to properly administrate the handling of cases is your problem.  They'd do a lot better to put the money they're putting into drug testing into actually operating the welfare programs in a way that will result in a reduction of those who are on welfare and shouldn't be.  Get those who are able to work into the workplace.  Get them trained and off their backsides.  Change the residency requirement.  Make things happen.  Drug testing just isn't going to do that.

[mmhmm]

Severin was feeling adrift here in the US, and went home. and you are right, it is totally natural to do that. there are many things worth more than money. a sense that you BELONG somewhere is among them.

Besides, you don't have to worry about paying taxes in Singapore.  You'll melt before the matter comes up.

[vandalshandle]

In reading posts from the Right, I get the distinct feeling that only those in the Center or Left of Center are happy with life in the USA.

Frankly, that saddens me. I love just about everything about this country.

[djAdvocate]

Jan 5, 2014 23:12:37 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

Severin was feeling adrift here in the US, and went home. and you are right, it is totally natural to do that. there are many things worth more than money. a sense that you BELONG somewhere is among them.

Besides, you don't have to worry about paying taxes in Singapore.  You'll melt before the matter comes up.

Singapore is a really weird place.  at a certain level, it acts like a police state.  at another, it is a very free place.  but not as cool as Brunei, if you like that climate.

[djAdvocate]

Jan 5, 2014 23:13:01 GMT -5 vandalshandle said:

In reading posts from the Right, I get the distinct feeling that only those in the Center or Left of Center are happy with life in the USA.

Frankly, that saddens me. I love just about everything about this country.

me too.  this place kicks ass.  there are very few places that i would rather live.  when i take my family into account, that number drops to zero.

[mmhmm]

Jan 5, 2014 23:18:01 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Jan 5, 2014 23:12:37 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

Besides, you don't have to worry about paying taxes in Singapore.  You'll melt before the matter comes up.

Singapore is a really weird place.  at a certain level, it acts like a police state.  at another, it is a very free place.  but not as cool as Brunei, if you like that climate.

It is a weird place, I'll agree.  They're all over the place with their laws and their freedoms.  It's just odd.  It's also the only place (besides Guam) I've ever known where the air got so heavy with humidity you couldn't breathe.  Then, it would mist rain a bit and follow that with more steaming.  Unbelievable!  Loved the place and loved to go there, but oh!  that heat!  Brunei was't touristy at all when I went there.  That might have changed, though.  Singapore is a tourist's haven and a bit of a melting pot in a lot of ways.  Very interesting places.

[djAdvocate]

Jan 5, 2014 23:24:41 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

Jan 5, 2014 23:18:01 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Singapore is a really weird place.  at a certain level, it acts like a police state.  at another, it is a very free place.  but not as cool as Brunei, if you like that climate.

It is a weird place, I'll agree.  They're all over the place with their laws and their freedoms.  It's just odd.  It's also the only place (besides Guam) I've ever known where the air got so heavy with humidity you couldn't breathe.  Then, it would mist rain a bit and follow that with more steaming.  Unbelievable!  Loved the place and loved to go there, but oh!  that heat!  Brunei was't touristy at all when I went there.  That might have changed, though.  Singapore is a tourist's haven and a bit of a melting pot in a lot of ways.  Very interesting places.

Brunei has a lot of things going for it.  it is a long shot for me for expatriation for retirement, but still on the top 5.

[zibazinski]

Why not? Their children are used by THEM.

[mmhmm]

Jan 6, 2014 7:28:05 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

Why not? Their children are used by THEM.

Sorry, zib, but you lost me.  Whose children are being used by whom?

[Deleted]

Jan 5, 2014 21:59:57 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Jan 5, 2014 21:24:16 GMT -5 @lonewolf said:

No. What the conservatives want is for the "guvmint" to simply stop taking their tax money and handing it to drug addicts and alcoholics.

really?  so you are against federally funded treatment centers for the poor?

what do you suggest for them?  school of hard knocks?  prison?

Actually, I am against it. Why should the taxpayer be responsible for all the poor choices that people make?
Maybe we should have federally funded treatment centers for people who are addicted to drinking, shopping, or eating, or shoplifting, or for people who refuse to quit smoking and end up with lung cancer, getting treated on the taxpayers dime, or people who sexually molest their children or beat their spouses? Do you realize that there are women out there who are seriously addicted to being pregnant? They their kids off on society once the child is no longer a baby. Shouldn't we have treatment centers for them too? All of these people are taking a toll on society, no different than the drug addicts.

What do I suggest? Yes, school of hard knocks and prison or maybe a deserted island, where they can have at it.
I'm sorry..But I am sick of this crap, where those of us who make good choices are being FORCED to provide for those who make bad choices. I say let the chips fall where they may.

[Deleted]

Jan 5, 2014 22:52:36 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Jan 5, 2014 22:48:41 GMT -5 mtman said:

Lone....This is a concept that is absolutely foreign to the libs.....

no, it isn't.  i asked lone: what should we do with addicts seeking treatment, if they can't afford it?  what should we do with people who are arrested on drug convictions, seeking treatment as an alternative to imprisonment?

Their answer to everything is to throw money at it, with no accountability.

your solution costs more than mine.  who is throwing money around?

No. The answer is to stop enabling those who are making bad choices. 

[Deleted]

Jan 5, 2014 22:48:41 GMT -5 mtman said:

Jan 5, 2014 21:24:16 GMT -5 @lonewolf said:

No. What the conservatives want is for the "guvmint" to simply stop taking their tax money and handing it to drug addicts and alcoholics.

Lone....This is a concept that is absolutely foreign to the libs.....Their answer to everything is to throw money at it, with no accountability.

You're right! It is foreign to them and it frustrates the hell out of me. They remind me of parents who raise their children to believe that they should never suffer the consequences of their actions. And when their child ends up in prison, they demand other peoples money to fix the problem. 
I honestly have tried to understand the Libs side and for the life of me I can't. 

[Tennesseer]

Jan 6, 2014 9:04:09 GMT -5 @lonewolf said:

Jan 5, 2014 22:48:41 GMT -5 mtman said:

Lone....This is a concept that is absolutely foreign to the libs.....Their answer to everything is to throw money at it, with no accountability.

You're right! It is foreign to them and it frustrates the hell out of me. They remind me of parents who raise their children to believe that they should never suffer the consequences of their actions. And when their child ends up in prison, they demand other peoples money to fix the problem. 
I honestly have tried to understand the Libs side and for the life of me I can't. 

Maybe during your next life, having lived a number of past lives (according to you), you can experience that of a drug addict on welfare.  Unfortunately, we will not be around for you to report back to us your experiences.

    

[mtman]

Jan 6, 2014 10:09:37 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Jan 6, 2014 9:04:09 GMT -5 @lonewolf said:

You're right! It is foreign to them and it frustrates the hell out of me. They remind me of parents who raise their children to believe that they should never suffer the consequences of their actions. And when their child ends up in prison, they demand other peoples money to fix the problem. 
I honestly have tried to understand the Libs side and for the life of me I can't. 

Maybe during your next life, having lived a number of past lives (according to you), you can experience that of a drug addict on welfare.  Unfortunately, we will not be around for you to report back to us your experiences.

    

So now when we fail to win an argument.....We take a cheap shot at folks?

[Tennesseer]

Jan 6, 2014 10:41:32 GMT -5 mtman said:

Jan 6, 2014 10:09:37 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Maybe during your next life, having lived a number of past lives (according to you), you can experience that of a drug addict on welfare.  Unfortunately, we will not be around for you to report back to us your experiences.

    

So now when we fail to win an argument.....We take a cheap shot at folks?

...Says the person with the most deleted posts of any poster due to their racist and bigotted content.

The argument is long over.  It is illegal and unconstitutional right now to pee test Florida welfare recipients.  Complain all you want, but it is unconstitutional.  

[Deleted]

Jan 6, 2014 10:46:20 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Jan 6, 2014 10:41:32 GMT -5 mtman said:

So now when we fail to win an argument.....We take a cheap shot at folks?

...Says the person with the most deleted posts of any poster due to their racist and bigotted content.

The argument is long over.  It is illegal and unconstitutional right now to pee test Florida welfare recipients.  Complain all you want, but it is unconstitutional.  

Then, we had better come up with another way to put a stop to this insanity.

[mtman]

Jan 6, 2014 8:32:40 GMT -5 @lonewolf said:

Jan 5, 2014 21:59:57 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

really?  so you are against federally funded treatment centers for the poor?

what do you suggest for them?  school of hard knocks?  prison?

Actually, I am against it. Why should the taxpayer be responsible for all the poor choices that people make?
Maybe we should have federally funded treatment centers for people who are addicted to drinking, shopping, or eating, or shoplifting, or for people who refuse to quit smoking and end up with lung cancer, getting treated on the taxpayers dime, or people who sexually molest their children or beat their spouses? Do you realize that there are women out there who are seriously addicted to being pregnant? They their kids off on society once the child is no longer a baby. Shouldn't we have treatment centers for them too? All of these people are taking a toll on society, no different than the drug addicts.

What do I suggest? Yes, school of hard knocks and prison or maybe a deserted island, where they can have at it.
I'm sorry..But I am sick of this crap, where those of us who make good choices are being FORCED to provide for those who make bad choices. I say let the chips fall where they may.

In every other species on this planet, the strong survive, the weak do not.....It is what makes the species stronger......It is only us supposedly intelligent humans, who have decided that cross-breeding and artificially maintaining the viability of the weak and ambition challenged of our species, is the course of action to take.....I suspect as history unfolds itself, we will find it was a very tragic mistake.

[Tennesseer]

Jan 6, 2014 11:05:30 GMT -5 @lonewolf said:

Jan 6, 2014 10:46:20 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

...Says the person with the most deleted posts of any poster due to their racist and bigotted content.

The argument is long over.  It is illegal and unconstitutional right now to pee test Florida welfare recipients.  Complain all you want, but it is unconstitutional.  

Then, we had better come up with another way to put a stop to this insanity.

A number of common sense proposals have been presented here.  The repeated drug testing or drug testing everyone is not the answer.  Check out Utah's procedure.  At least they are less invasive.  I posted a link to a mention of Utah's method a page or two back.

ETA:  reply #178.

[mmhmm]

Jan 6, 2014 11:10:43 GMT -5 mtman said:

Jan 6, 2014 8:32:40 GMT -5 @lonewolf said:

Actually, I am against it. Why should the taxpayer be responsible for all the poor choices that people make?
Maybe we should have federally funded treatment centers for people who are addicted to drinking, shopping, or eating, or shoplifting, or for people who refuse to quit smoking and end up with lung cancer, getting treated on the taxpayers dime, or people who sexually molest their children or beat their spouses? Do you realize that there are women out there who are seriously addicted to being pregnant? They their kids off on society once the child is no longer a baby. Shouldn't we have treatment centers for them too? All of these people are taking a toll on society, no different than the drug addicts.

What do I suggest? Yes, school of hard knocks and prison or maybe a deserted island, where they can have at it.
I'm sorry..But I am sick of this crap, where those of us who make good choices are being FORCED to provide for those who make bad choices. I say let the chips fall where they may.

In every other species on this planet, the strong survive, the weak do not.....It is what makes the species stronger......It is only us supposedly intelligent humans, who have decided that cross-breeding and artificially maintaining the viability of the weak and ambition challenged of our species, is the course of action to take.....I suspect as history unfolds itself, we will find it was a very tragic mistake.

Who, exactly, are the "weak and ambition challenged of our species", mtman, and how are they being "artificially maintained"?  How do you make that determination in advance, before "breeding" takes place?

[jkapp]

Jan 5, 2014 20:49:43 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Jan 5, 2014 13:40:41 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

Exactly what I was going for, dj!  This is all about actively trying to impose one person's moral standards on another person.  The more it's talked about, the more obvious that becomes.

you know what i find strange about it?  conservatives are always talking about how they want the guvmint out of their lives.  but they want everyone peeing in a jar to show that THEIR money is not being wasted, creating the most invasive bureaucracy i can think of.

utterly bizarre.

COnservatives also say how they want tax money to be spent efficiently and without fraud/abuse.  Apparently, they believe spending money on drug testing is an efficient use of money to prevent fraud (obviously, liberals disagree).

Liberals always say how they are also against abuse and fraud of public funds but always argue AGAINST any means of checking for it.  Their argument being that fraud and abuse will happen, and there's not much that can be done about it.  Well, if you argue against every means of doing something about it, then, yes, not much can be done.

[jkapp]

Jan 5, 2014 22:09:14 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Jan 5, 2014 22:04:57 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

This is a very important aspect of the changes needed to make this whole mess work the way it should work.  Those who are truly unable to support themselves should not just be left to do without.  That's wrong.  It's just wrong in more ways than I could write.  We need treatment programs.  We need training programs.  We need proper, thorough screening techniques and follow-up.  We have none of some of that and very little of the rest of it.  We're going to have to do it, so why not make an effort to do it correctly?  Will it cost money?  Yes.  Will that money spent mean less money down the road?  Yes, I believe it will.

this brings us full circle.  if conservatives were suggesting that we should take the 2.6% and put them in a funded treatment program, i would feel somewhat differently about this whole discussion.  after all, such programs are VASTLY more expensive than welfare.  but again, clearly, this is not about drugs.  this is about moralizing about casual drug use.

Where does it state those 2.6% of failed tests were only casual usage?

[EVT1]

Jan 6, 2014 11:14:50 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

Jan 6, 2014 11:10:43 GMT -5 mtman said:

In every other species on this planet, the strong survive, the weak do not.....It is what makes the species stronger......It is only us supposedly intelligent humans, who have decided that cross-breeding and artificially maintaining the viability of the weak and ambition challenged of our species, is the course of action to take.....I suspect as history unfolds itself, we will find it was a very tragic mistake.

Who, exactly, are the "weak and ambition challenged of our species", mtman, and how are they being "artificially maintained"?  How do you make that determination in advance, before "breeding" takes place?

He said cross-breeding......

Approaching Godwin's law here.

[mmhmm]

Jan 6, 2014 11:23:49 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

Jan 6, 2014 11:14:50 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

Who, exactly, are the "weak and ambition challenged of our species", mtman, and how are they being "artificially maintained"?  How do you make that determination in advance, before "breeding" takes place?

He said cross-breeding......

Approaching Godwin's law here.

Yes, he did, didn't he?  I'm wondering what, exactly, is meant by that statement.   I don't know of any cases where humans have cross-bred with sloths, or mice, or something I would identify immediately as "weak and ambition challenged".  Mtman must have something else in mind, eh?  Somehow, though, I doubt an answer will be forthcoming and my point has been made.

[jkapp]

Jan 5, 2014 23:13:01 GMT -5 vandalshandle said:

In reading posts from the Right, I get the distinct feeling that only those in the Center or Left of Center are happy with life in the USA.

Frankly, that saddens me. I love just about everything about this country.

That's not what I get at all from the postings...but people see what they want to see.