Girl kicked out of HS for reporting rape

[Deleted]

False Rape Allegations

2-8%, max

[Deleted]

So you are ok with a guilty till proven innocent mentality? With those being falsely accused being assumed guilty... Being convicted unless they can prove their innocence? 

You don't think false positives would increase if girls were free from having to provide proof? All I have to say is I said no and if he can't prove I didn't, well...

No girl should be raped. But there are also times when I think the pendulum swings too far. 

[Deleted]

We have not come close to the pendulum swinging the other way. And it is ridiculous that the possibility of that happening in the future is treated as seriously as the reality of the epidemic of rapes that happen now. No one came close to being convicted of rape in this case and she got expelled for reporting it. Insufficient evidence should be treated much, much differently than found innocent.

[Deleted]

She should never have gotten expelled for reporting it.

You don't correct that though by saying anyone accused of rape is guilty until proven innocent. 

We do not have assumption of guilt in this country, as we should not. 




"Insufficient evidence should be treated much, much differently than found innocent."

treated differently by whom? In what context? ... Why? ... So everyone accused of a crime should be assumed guilty unless they prove they are innocent? 

[justme]

To be fair, not that I think rape should be treated any different, but we should also be fair and treat someone that reports a rape the same as those who report a burglary or murder or any such crime. However, it's not said very often that what a person who was robbed was wearing was the reason they were robbed and should have known better. Nor do people say the victim's past spending patterns indicated that maybe this time the person meant to give the person who robbed them money.

Not that those examples are the same in this case, though "walking to that place" could easily substitute.

[EVT1]

Agree the problem here was the handling of the situation.

As vile as a rapist is, they still have to be presumed innocent.  That's just the system- but on the bright side the law of evidence has come around with rape shield laws.  For the longest time what lawyers had to do to the victims was disgusting.

[Deleted]

It should be treated differently by those of us discussing it and by the district attorney. We should not be bringing up the possibility of false accusations when talking about it being reported. That district attorney should have brought those charges and allowed a finding of insufficient evidence and that should stay on that boys record. The publicity machine for the excuse of false accusations works in overdrive and we need to stop behaving as if that is what is happening every time a woman reports a rape.

[Deleted]

What record? I am sorry for this girl being kicked out of school and punished for reporting. That should not happen. But an accusation should not be enough to give someone a record.

false reporting rates are those proven false. Why should insufficient evidence automatically mean guilty but not provable? Insufficient evidence can go either way. In rape with no physical evidence, just he said she said, why should one persons testimony automatically be given more weight than the other? 

 Rape should be treated no differently than other crime. The victim should not be blamed, but there is still the presumption of innocence. That is simply how the best system of justice functions. It is not infallible, but it is the best system available. 

Women (assuming for a bit that women are the only ones ever raped) are not infallible either. I don't see why the system should work differently in those cases and assume that accusation somehow proves guilt. 

[zibazinski]

Why should this young man be forever tainted by this? I get that the girls parents sent her to school unprepared for life but this wasnt rape in the manner that rape is generally understood. I was suitemates in college my freshman year with a girl who never dated in HS and our freshman year some senior took "advantage" of her ignorance and by the time my roommate and I figured out that she was having sex and had no clue as to protection, she was pregnant. We dealt with the aftermath as best the three of us could. Should she have been able to say he raped her because she was clueless as to what was happening? Yup, in my mind he was a prick for obviously taking advantage of someone's ignorance but it wasn't rape.

[Deleted]

why should one persons testimony automatically be given more weight than the other?

Because the incidence of false accusations is very, very low. The rapist has a vested interest in denying it. There isn't a lot of payoff for the one that reports it. Rape is a notoriously difficult crime to prove and to treat anyone that reports it as likely to be making a false accusation helps rapists to keep getting away with it.

[zibazinski]

If you have the son that is falsely accused it is just as awful as having a daughter that has been raped. They never truly recover from it. The ones who make false accusations seem to skate on by with life as in Tawanna Brawley or whatever her name was. She's the one who comes to mind off hand.

[Deleted]

If you have the son that is falsely accused it is just as awful as having a daughter that has been raped.

But it rarely happens! I know you think you have seen a thousand stories about it but it really does not happen often.

[Deleted]

I don't think the system should assume the girl is lying. But neither should it assume the boy is guilty just by being accused. The assumption is innocence. It should be investigated, but the burden of proof remains. If there is insufficient evidence, there is assumption of innocence and no record. 

[Deleted]

Dec 30, 2013 9:38:31 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

If you have the son that is falsely accused it is just as awful as having a daughter that has been raped.

But it rarely happens! I know you think you have seen a thousand stories about it but it really does not happen often.

You are assuming ALL insufficient evidence cases are guilty but unprovable. 2-8% are PROVEN to be false. 

And 2-8% being assumed guilty when not right off the bat is ok with you? 

[Deleted]

Dec 30, 2013 9:41:07 GMT -5 oped said:

Dec 30, 2013 9:38:31 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

But it rarely happens! I know you think you have seen a thousand stories about it but it really does not happen often.

You are assuming ALL insufficient evidence cases are guilty but unprovable. 2-8% are PROVEN to be false. 

And 2-8% being assumed guilty when not right off the bat is ok with you? 

Actually if you read the link I provided you will see that they aren't proven to be false.

And I am more comfortable with 2-8% being held in suspicion than 92-98% of women making legitimate reports being treated like they are making a false accusation.

I'm not as enomoured of the justice system as you are. Innocent until proven guilty sounds nice, and maybe it would be if that principle existed in a vacuum. It doesn't. There are so many technicalities that can exclude evidence and so many tactics than can be used to bias a verdict. It is not a pure system.

[Deleted]

The stats for men getting justice if they are raped is atrocious. Most rapes happen to women, but the poor men that get raped have pretty much no support and are most likely ridiculed.

[Deleted]

Dec 30, 2013 9:55:51 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Dec 30, 2013 9:41:07 GMT -5 oped said:

You are assuming ALL insufficient evidence cases are guilty but unprovable. 2-8% are PROVEN to be false. 

And 2-8% being assumed guilty when not right off the bat is ok with you? 

Actually if you read the link I provided you will see that they aren't proven to be false.

And I am more comfortable with 2-8% being held in suspicion than 92-98% of women making legitimate reports being treated like they are making a false accusation.

I'm not as enomoured of the justice system as you are. Innocent until proven guilty sounds nice, and maybe it would be if that principle existed in a vacuum. It doesn't. There are so many technicalities that can exclude evidence and so many tactics than can be used to bias a verdict. It is not a pure system.

The opinion blog you posted?  The only link she provided was wiki, and if you go to wiki, which is a flagged article anyway, you see it's not exactly the picture she posted. 

False is false, ie. Proven either false or unfounded. The section In wiki on FBI says 8% unfounded and says other crimes are 2%... 

In order to be classified as a false report, the thing has to be found false. Insufficient evidence is just that. Nowhere does it suggest that the OP was found to be a false report. 

[Deleted]

Oped I don't know what else to say. I am totally fine with the pendulum swinging towards not believing the accused rapists rather than not believing those that report rape.

[justme]

I thought the greater issue was how the school handled it. While I'm sure they would have preferred to see him punished by the law for what he did, I think they're more outraged at the way the school dealt with it. Only the law has the innocent until proven guilty and the high standard of proof needed (not saying they shouldn't). The school doesn't need that burden of proof to take action. Which maybe is why they're required to do their own investigation? If I'm remembering right there was a student code of conduct I had to sign at the beginning of the year saying I'd follow those rules, I'd assume some actions the boy did would fall under breaking those rules since it was said he plead to assault.

[Deleted]

I am for the system believing the person reporting rape is reporting a valid crime, not blaming the victim, and investigating as if all accusations are valid. I will never be for accusation being enough to prove guilt. That is way too much power to give anyone. I don't assume either party is wrong, until the evidence proves one is guilty. 

Saying accusations of rape should be taken seriously is not the same as saying accusations of rape should be enough to find someone guilty of rape.

[Deleted]

I've never said they should be found guilty. I think leaving a record that the charges were filed and insufficient evidence was found to convict is taking it seriously. They aren't found guilty but there is something to help track if a pattern develops.

[zibazinski]

That sits with them forever. I wouldn't want others to think my son MIGHT have raped someone when he really didn't but she said he did after the fact. No decent girl would ever date him.

[billisonboard]

Dec 30, 2013 17:53:02 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

That sits with them forever. I wouldn't want others to think my son MIGHT have raped someone when he really didn't but she said he did after the fact. No decent girl would ever date him.

Just make sure you teach him to only have sex with decent girls in the first place.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Dec 29, 2013 23:01:19 GMT -5 oped said:

She should never have gotten expelled for reporting it.

You don't correct that though by saying anyone accused of rape is guilty until proven innocent. 

We do not have assumption of guilt in this country, as we should not. 




"Insufficient evidence should be treated much, much differently than found innocent."

treated differently by whom? In what context? ... Why? ... So everyone accused of a crime should be assumed guilty unless they prove they are innocent? 

I was thinking the same questions.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

And FWIW, I tend to believe her story.  But we can't throw people in jail or ostracize them on a hunch.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Dec 30, 2013 11:04:24 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

I've never said they should be found guilty. I think leaving a record that the charges were filed and insufficient evidence was found to convict is taking it seriously. They aren't found guilty but there is something to help track if a pattern develops.

This is Angela Corey territory- filing charges when you KNOW there's insufficient evidence to convict is a breach of the public trust, it is unethical, immoral, and can be illegal depending what they have to do in order to file the charges. Remember Angela Corey's perjury in her charging document? Would you prefer this become the norm for prosecutors across the country?