Mom of 13yo on vent fights for 2nd opinion- hate on display

[Opti]

Its hard for people to accept the death of child. I saw it up close
and personal when my friend who I thought knew better needed
to take days to emotionally reach what her head already knew.
Her daughter was my age and it was still extremely difficult.
Death and dying is an extremely emotionally fraught time for some
and overall I think if part of the effect of Obamacare is to take
the decision away from people who can't afford thousands of dollars
a day to keep a loved one hooked up who will never recover, it will
actually be better for everyone involved - even the grieving parents.


I'm sorry to hear about the hate and would like more medical info too.
A brief comment about the other thread. Unlike most, I'm not pro
keeping people medically alive on machines when it is borne by the taxpayers
and not the individuals involved. If its private pay and they can afford it
I have no issue unless of course someone comes into that facility who
might be saved, but that's another discussion.

[billisonboard]

Musical Interlude

[thyme4change]

Dec 24, 2013 8:24:26 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

Dec 23, 2013 18:54:24 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

Well, of course we were all about saving Schiavo - she was white.

That sure wasn't true for me, thyme!  Nor, was it true for many I know - albeit, most I talked to about it were medical professionals.  At one point, I saw a picture of the CT of Ms. Shiavo's brain.  The frontal lobe was, in essence, mush, and the rest of the brain was following.  The hind brain, however, was still intact and doing its job.  She was never brain dead and the medical professionals who worked with her never claimed she was.  She was breathing without a ventilator, but she wasn't going to recover - ever.  This case is different, since several doctors have declared this poor girl brain dead.  Just like Ms. Shiavo's parents, however, these parents are unable to accept their child is gone.  If I believed my child had died because of a "simple tonsillectomy", I might feel the same.  I don't know.  The skin color of the victim doesn't mean beans to me in a case like this one.

It wasn't true for me either.  

[zibazinski]

Ugh, Terri Shiavos husbands kids by another woman went to the school that I taught in. I had friends that were teachers as well as parents of students live in the same neighborhood, and the harassment those kids got and the picketing on the Shaivo lawn was just awful. Brings back very bad memories. 

[Bonny]

Have you been following this story?

www.sfgate.com/news/medical/article/Nursing-home-says-it-won-t-take-brain-dead-girl-5096373.php

Very sad situation. I can certainly sympathize with the parents but at some point you have to accept the inevitable. And as heartless as it may come across who's paying for this?

[justme]

Form what I've read insurance companies will refuse to pay once the insured is declared dead.  

Wow, how expensive would it be to transport her to New York where one of the residents they're talking to is located!? Though I'm guessing they're going to run into the same problem and I don't see the judge ordering the surgeries.

[DVM gone riding]

I am surprised the hosp isn't agreeing to it just because they are going to get sued as is they might be able to get the family to sign off on any litigation in order to do the procedure. 

I think this is a really good wake up call to people that think plastic surgery is routine and small anesth requiring procedures are no big deal and should be done on a whim and at their demand! This girl went in to get her tonsils out and is dead.

[Sum Dum Gai]

The story is sad, but the family needs to accept reality. Brain dead is brain dead. She's not in a coma or something, the part of her that was her is completely dead. She's just meat with an artificial heartbeat now.

[moon/Laura]

I don't blame the hospital for not wanting to do the surgeries. You do surgery like that when there's a chance it will improve the situation. That's not the case here. It's not going to bring her back.

[mmhmm]

The parents are now trying to get the child moved to a sub-acute care facility.  They say they've found one that will accept her.  Before she can be moved, however, she'll need a tracheostomy and a gastrostomy (for a feeding tube).  The Oakland hospital's stance appears to be they don't believe it's ethical to do such surgeries on a deceased person.  Here's a link:

Fox 40



And here's another link with a follow-up on the above.  The nursing home that had agreed to take the child has apparently changed its mind:

News 10

[doxieluvr]

Dec 25, 2013 9:04:47 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

Ugh, Terri Shiavos husbands kids by another woman went to the school that I taught in. I had friends that were teachers as well as parents of students live in the same neighborhood, and the harassment those kids got and the picketing on the Shaivo lawn was just awful. Brings back very bad memories. 

It was awful for him to start a new relationship and have children by another woman while his WIFE was in a nursing home. 

[mmhmm]

Let's stay on topic and avoid a rehashing of the Shiavo case, please.  Thanks.  - mmhmm, Administrator

[thyme4change]

Dec 27, 2013 20:26:52 GMT -5 DVM gone riding said:

I think this is a really good wake up call to people that think plastic surgery is routine and small anesth requiring procedures are no big deal and should be done on a whim and at their demand! This girl went in to get her tonsils out and is dead.

Did you read post #6?  I'm not sure if this was just a simple tonsillectomy.  Unfortunately, the hospital can't say, and I am not sure the family completely understands the complexities of the operation.  

[zibazinski]

Life is for the living. It'd been years. I didn't think much of it but it didn't ruin my life, either. 

[Artemis Windsong]

I see this as the first mistake was reviving her with shock treatment.  Sometimes it's better to step back.  BUT there has to be a DNR in hand.  Although, a form is signed on the inherent dangers of anesthsia and surgery.

I lost a friend to a routine surgery not long ago.  Very similar situation.

I am sorry for everyone involved.

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

An ethicist wrote about this, explaining brain dead and the variations using a TV as an analogy.

He said that if a normal, healthy brain is a TV picture with sound and a clear picture. A coma is when the picture occasionally pixilates out, like a disturbed connection but you can usually tell what TV show is running. A vegetative state is when the entire TV picture is snow and you can't see what's on the TV whatsoever. Brain dead, the TV set is unplugged.

The whole situation is sad, but it is what it is. Despite the reports saying that it was a simple tonsillectomy, it wasn't. I think that I only read a single article about this that stated that the surgery was to help sleep apnea that the child had, and was way more invasive than than all the reports say.

[DVM gone riding]

Dec 28, 2013 12:36:31 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

Dec 27, 2013 20:26:52 GMT -5 DVM gone riding said:

I think this is a really good wake up call to people that think plastic surgery is routine and small anesth requiring procedures are no big deal and should be done on a whim and at their demand! This girl went in to get her tonsils out and is dead.

Did you read post #6?  I'm not sure if this was just a simple tonsillectomy.  Unfortunately, the hospital can't say, and I am not sure the family completely understands the complexities of the operation.  

Not when I made the original comment because at that time it was on two different threads. I agree with you I don't think the family had the foggiest of ideas about the complexity of the surgery. I am deeply concerned about the mother's testimony that she was given no aid when her daughter started to bleed post-op until her daughter went into cardiac arrest due to blood loss. All very sad case.

[lynnerself]

Judge has extended the time the hospital must keep her on the ventilator until Jan 7th.

here

[thyme4change]

Ugh.  So sad, but these people are going to have to deal with the reality of the situation eventually.

[mmhmm]

Yes, sadly, they are.  IMO, the longer this drags on the more difficult that's going to be.

[Deleted]

I agree, the more it goes on I do think more hope the parent is getting, I am not sure she is in real life right now.

[justme]

Sigh, they're not going to get anyone to accept her if they haven't already. And now there's just more time for the Go Fund Me site to get more money. I hope they don't get another extension so everyone can move forward and try to heal.

[DVM gone riding]

That means almost a month on a ventilator. I am surprised her heart continues to beat. Clearly a candidate for a brain transplant!   ok maybe not funny

[Tennesseer]

Dec 30, 2013 22:08:59 GMT -5 DVM gone riding said:

That means almost a month on a ventilator. I am surprised her heart continues to beat. Clearly a candidate for a brain transplant!   ok maybe not funny

If a brain transplant was even possible, would the young girl be the same person her mother remembers?   With a brain transplant, who would she 'belong' to - the mother who bore her or the mother/family of the person whose brain was transplanted?

The memories and personality of the brain transplanted would be that of the donor and not the girl.

[billisonboard]

Dec 31, 2013 11:22:08 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Dec 30, 2013 22:08:59 GMT -5 DVM gone riding said:

That means almost a month on a ventilator. I am surprised her heart continues to beat. Clearly a candidate for a brain transplant!   ok maybe not funny

If a brain transplant was even possible, would the young girl be the same person her mother remembers?   With a brain transplant, who would she 'belong' to - the mother who bore her or the mother/family of the person whose brain was transplanted?

The memories and personality of the brain transplanted would be that of the donor and not the girl.

Was DVM talking about a brain transplant for the girl or for the mother?

[Tennesseer]

Dec 31, 2013 11:24:55 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Dec 31, 2013 11:22:08 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

If a brain transplant was even possible, would the young girl be the same person her mother remembers?   With a brain transplant, who would she 'belong' to - the mother who bore her or the mother/family of the person whose brain was transplanted?

The memories and personality of the brain transplanted would be that of the donor and not the girl.

Was DVM talking about a brain transplant for the girl or for the mother?

The mother's brain just needs a program update unlike her daughter's brain where the hard drive was wiped clean.

[wvugurl26]

I saw this story on the news last night. It was not a simple tonsillectomy. They were removing tonsils and tissue from I think two other spots. It is a heartbreaking story.

The hospital is saying they need to do an autopsy to determine what went wrong. It is a very sad story but a reminder there are risks of complications with any surgery.

[The Captain]

Dec 28, 2013 19:06:44 GMT -5 DVM gone riding said:

Dec 28, 2013 12:36:31 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

Did you read post #6?  I'm not sure if this was just a simple tonsillectomy.  Unfortunately, the hospital can't say, and I am not sure the family completely understands the complexities of the operation.  

Not when I made the original comment because at that time it was on two different threads. I agree with you I don't think the family had the foggiest of ideas about the complexity of the surgery. I am deeply concerned about the mother's testimony that she was given no aid when her daughter started to bleed post-op until her daughter went into cardiac arrest due to blood loss. All very sad case.

As cruel as it may sound, given some of the other statements the mother has made regarding the situation, she doesn't have a lot of creditability with me.  It appears to me she doesn't even have a basic understanding of several items surrounding the situation.

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Dec 31, 2013 11:41:41 GMT -5 The Captain said:

Dec 28, 2013 19:06:44 GMT -5 DVM gone riding said:

Not when I made the original comment because at that time it was on two different threads. I agree with you I don't think the family had the foggiest of ideas about the complexity of the surgery. I am deeply concerned about the mother's testimony that she was given no aid when her daughter started to bleed post-op until her daughter went into cardiac arrest due to blood loss. All very sad case.

As cruel as it may sound, given some of the other statements the mother has made regarding the situation, she doesn't have a lot of creditability with me.  It appears to me she doesn't even have a basic understanding of several items surrounding the situation.

Mom was on the news last night and she sounds like she does not comprehend the terms.  At this point, I can't imagine that someone has not tried to give her a lesson in physiology, to explain why her daughter appears to be alive but is not.

Her daughter is producing urine, her heart is beating and she is warm.  That means she is alive.

[wvugurl26]

It has to be an awful thing to lose a child. The whole situation though makes me think she wasn't aware of the risks of any surgery let alone this one.

She may appear to be alive but the machines are making her appear that way.