Bonny
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Post by Bonny on Dec 16, 2013 15:29:17 GMT -5
Well it's a little different story.
They have been renting for 5 years. They are in the area to help manage the affairs of his 93 year old father who is in a nursing home in the area. They will stay in the area until he passes and they settle his estate. No one knows when that will be. Their LL wants to move his mother into the ground floor condo they are living in and gave them notice about 2 months ago. They have been looking for places but her health issues have made it difficult to look at property at times. They are prepared to move into a temporary place if they need to.
Her issues are with radio frequency waves. Wifi, radio waves, high voltage lines. Our house is perfect for them because it's in a subdivision of homes with an average lot size of 1.8 acres. A secondary issue is mold. They are having the mold guy come out tomorrow. I told them of two areas of concern.
Agent will be running a credit report on each of them.
After the health stuff, my next concern is their income. The are 65 and retired. Supposedly he gets both a monthly and annual sum from his father. They also have investments. I'm asking the agent how we would ask to document that. Tax returns? Bank statements? Depending on what they can or are willing to provide we may want to ask for a bigger deposit or a couple of months of rent up front.
I'm willing to work with them a bit because an older couple is a good fit for this house. It's really designed for an active retired couple who likes to entertain. And despite being in an excellent school district it's not a good house for someone who has small children. There's no grass and it's a little isolated.
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milee
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Post by milee on Dec 16, 2013 15:38:34 GMT -5
Her issues are with radio frequency waves. Wifi, radio waves, high voltage lines. A secondary issue is mold. They are having the mold guy come out tomorrow.
Run, run away!!!
This is nuts. My DH - an electrical engineer - actually rolls his eyes when I ask questions about high voltage lines, etc. He's normally incredibly patient (has tried to explain to me how the DVD player works about 100 times) but thinks this whole issue with waves is nuts.
These people are gonna drive you crazy. If they're already showing you this level of neurosis, think what you'll see once they move in?
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Bonny
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Post by Bonny on Dec 16, 2013 16:45:55 GMT -5
I think the electromagnetic field stuff is nuts too.
But let's see if these folks can provide documentable income. I'm also tempted to have my lawyer friend do a lexis nexus search on them. That search picks up some interesting stuff.
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tskeeter
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Post by tskeeter on Dec 16, 2013 17:04:50 GMT -5
Bonn, you've got lots of property management experience. But,the allowance from Dad concerns me. To me, it says that they didn't prepare to support themselves in retirement. In itself, not an issue. But, what happens if Dad's money runs out or he cuts them off? Do they have the financial resources to handle the rent with only their own resources? Couple the possibility of inadequate financial resources with some fairly eccentric behavior, and I wonder if you're getting any improvement in the PITA factor. Especially when you're dealing with retirees, who seem to have more time to identify and focus on deficiencies, and complain to you about them than other tenants. Makes me think about what happened when one of our homeowners volunteered to paint the sign at our HOA entry. He painted it three times to get a color combination that residents of our retiree heavy neighborhood wouldn't complain about. The first color selection was shades I would not have chosen, but it was painted. I thought the second time was fine, but the complaint committee wasn't satisfied.
Another thought, given that you are now aware of the sensitivity of the prospective tenant to electromagnetic fields, what will you have to do when the tenant discovers a new/stray EM field six months from now? (You didn't assume that the EM field testing would be a one time, pre-rental event, did you? She's got testing equipment. She can amuse herself by testing as often as she wants. How long before she "finds" something?) Are they going to demand that you provide shielding at the property line? Identify and correct the source of the EM field, even if it is not on your property? Something else? (Mold, at least, could be isolated to your property and something you would have direct control over. EM fields, not so much.)
I think there are a few signs that this couple have the potential to be challenging tenants. Seems like every time I've been less than completely comfortable with the other party to a business deal, the deal has become more of a hassle than I would have liked. I've gotten to the point where I just won't deal with anyone I suspect could become a PITA. If you can stand the financial pain of a vacancy for a while longer, might be worth waiting for a low hassle tenant.
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Bonny
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Post by Bonny on Dec 16, 2013 17:16:37 GMT -5
Bonn, you've got lots of property management experience. But, doesn't the allowance from Dad concern you? To me, it says that they didn't prepare to support themselves in retirement. In itself, not an issue. But, what happens if Dad's money runs out or he cuts them off? Do they have the financial resources to handle the rent with only their own resources? Couple the possibility of inadequate financial resources with some fairly eccentric behavior, and I wonder if you're getting any improvement in the PITA factor. I haven't seen the application yet or any of the financial information so it's hard to say what's going on.
I can certainly see a situation whereby they are living on Dad's money and letting their money stay invested and grow. Yes it would concern me if this is their only money.
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tskeeter
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Post by tskeeter on Dec 16, 2013 17:38:43 GMT -5
Bonn, you've got lots of property management experience. But, doesn't the allowance from Dad concern you? To me, it says that they didn't prepare to support themselves in retirement. In itself, not an issue. But, what happens if Dad's money runs out or he cuts them off? Do they have the financial resources to handle the rent with only their own resources? Couple the possibility of inadequate financial resources with some fairly eccentric behavior, and I wonder if you're getting any improvement in the PITA factor. I haven't seen the application yet or any of the financial information so it's hard to say what's going on.
I can certainly see a situation whereby they are living on Dad's money and letting their money stay invested and grow. Yes it would concern me if this is their only money.
Bonn, I added some thoughts to my earlier post.
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Bonny
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Post by Bonny on Dec 16, 2013 18:08:20 GMT -5
tskeeter, you make some good points. Their financials have to be really good for us to go any further.
And for clarification purposes they hired some who does the measurements so they've been paying for this process; they didn't bring their own equipment.
One concern DH has is if renting our house is going to be significantly more expensive than what they've been paying for a condominium. Add in the utilities for a house and they are going to experience what lenders call "payment shock" and we'll turn them down.
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milee
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Post by milee on Dec 16, 2013 18:16:56 GMT -5
And for clarification purposes they hired some who does the measurements so they've been paying for this process; they didn't bring their own equipment.
I'm not sure if that makes me feel better or worse. At least they don't own the equipment so won't be out there measuring every day. On the other hand, they are very serious about it if they're paying to hire someone for the measurement. Not sure which is worse.
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Bonny
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Post by Bonny on Dec 16, 2013 18:57:45 GMT -5
And for clarification purposes they hired some who does the measurements so they've been paying for this process; they didn't bring their own equipment.
I'm not sure if that makes me feel better or worse. At least they don't own the equipment so won't be out there measuring every day. On the other hand, they are very serious about it if they're paying to hire someone for the measurement. Not sure which is worse. LOL! I hear ya!
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Works4me
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Post by Works4me on Dec 16, 2013 22:39:54 GMT -5
Bonny- an other inquiries yet? IIRC the Phoenix area is still considered a landlord market due to the fact that most properties are deeply under-water and the high number of foreclosures leading to an increased number of potential renters.
Will review your ad later tonight and let you know what I think - still want that blue kitchen at your mother's place as I love that color but am using neutrals here per your advice - thanks!
Unless they are extremely secure financially in their own right I would be reluctant to rent to them. Even a good payment history could be misleading if either of them has recently retired. Also, they originally said 10 months due to estate settlement - that sounds very misleading to me, even into the category of polite fiction.
The other issue is if the father's money has been paying their expenses that could go by the wayside once he is fully transitioned to nursing home care because of the cost. My other question is what about his house - is that what they are waiting 10 months for? Pay close attention to how the accounts are owned - not just names on the checks and confirm ownership with any brokerages as statements are way too easy to alter in this day and age.
On the other hand, if they are solid financially and your attorney friend's report is clear, they could be good long term tenants who would leave feet first - except for that 10 month original offer - curious what was behind that - lol!
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justme
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Post by justme on Dec 16, 2013 23:08:04 GMT -5
So Dad's not even dead yet, but they're counting on the estate settling within 12 months! I know nursing home doesn't always mean at death's door, maybe it is in this case but geeze!
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resolution
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Post by resolution on Dec 16, 2013 23:35:15 GMT -5
It sounds like too much drama to me. You don't strike me as the type that attracts new drama into their life as soon as the old drama is gone, but that is where this seems to be headed.
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Bonny
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Post by Bonny on Dec 18, 2013 19:54:27 GMT -5
It sounds like too much drama to me. You don't strike me as the type that attracts new drama into their life as soon as the old drama is gone, but that is where this seems to be headed. LOL, you could have been right!
I finally got their paperwork last night and was able to do the LL reference. LL really liked them but the paperwork they provided the agent wasn't very complete. What I got was 3 months of a checking account bank statements showing $3600/mth deposits and 3 deposit slips of $20k deposits for 2010,11 & 12. Oh, and monthly SS checks for him for $780/mth. I called and spoke to them this morning and he was "very uncomfortable" having his financial advisor give any more information. Later this morning he called the agent and withdrew his application and told the agent they wouldn't be renting the house.
They may have worked out. Their landlord really liked them. Said he had not heard about her electromagnetic issues until they checked out another house he had. Said they never complained about anything.
But there were so many red flags that I think I probably dodged a bullet. I could only see a pattern to support about $72,500 income and I really think someone needs closer to $100k to pay rent of $2500/mth. They were paying $1500/mth for a 2 bedroom condo. Both DH and I were concerned about them experiencing "Payment shock"; essentially doubling their housing expense once you add in the extra costs of utilities at house vs a condo.
And am I so YM? I, like justme, is a little creeped out that these folks seem to have no income other than Dad's "gifts" and a very small SS check. I notice on one the statements provided that there were several "over-draft" transfers from another account. That makes me think they really aren't living within their means and waiting for Dad to die.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Dec 19, 2013 17:21:10 GMT -5
I think you dodged a bullet, too.
The radio waves thing was a flag. We had an employee once who had a problem with the lights in her office, with the fact that her office was on a second floor over a loading dock (when a truck was there, it was noisy and she was certain the fumes were coming through the windows), and she was 100% certain the AC duct into her office was carrying mold spores. We had replaced the whole unit and duct work just 18 months before she moved into that office, and since we make a product sensitive to contamination we do mold testing throughout the building (and the tests we do on the outside dock, in ambient air, are always higher than the amount of mold inside the building) - but none of that mattered, she was certain all these factors together were killing her.
I don't know if they were killing her, but I was certainly ready to kill her. We have actual health and safety issues in the packaging and manufacturing areas, but we had to waste time and money trying to prove or disprove all these imaginary problems in her office. All her officemates hated her (apparently she spent most of the time whining about her poor health and how the building was the source of all her problems). Finally, she quit, then sued us and got nothing.
You can't convince these types of people that they aren't being attacked by everything around them. I think this woman would have been a PITA too.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Dec 19, 2013 17:39:35 GMT -5
::I think you dodged a bullet, too.
The radio waves thing was a flag.::
Meh, they hadn't complained ever to their former landlord about anything. And it sounds like their 2 concerns were "waves" and mold. I'm sure no one is going to say they shouldn't be concerned over mold. So really, they had one potentially irrational fear. To me, that seems far from the kind of paranoia you describe.
I agree it can be a flag. But there are flags that lead to bigger issues, and flags which are the extent of the issue. Based on everything else, it sounds like this flag was just that, it was the extent of the issue (and for some reason I cannot type the word "flag" with first typing it as "falg").
Also, I'm sure there were some "nutjobs" back in the day who were terrified of asbestos and told they were just paranoid. I think everyone gets a pass on 1-2 things that they think are more dangerous than we have collectively decided they are at this point.
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Works4me
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Post by Works4me on Dec 19, 2013 21:06:33 GMT -5
I agree you dodged a bullet - a financial train-wreck bullet!
If his SS check is under $800 per month that means neither he nor his wife worked very many of the years of their lives and I wonder how they could have built up enough of a nest egg to support themselves. They could have inherited from other sources but people tend to spend inherited money far more freely which would really give me pause about this couple. Also, what about her Social Security as I believe they were both 65-66?
If they really had enough money to afford to rent your place I doubt they would have low-balled you on the rent in their first offer, especially given their other requests made at that time. Also, the fact that he did not like you probing into his financial affairs says to me that there probably was something funny going on there financially. Easy to deposit money into an account to show income for 3 months but much harder to show where it came from on an ongoing basis.
For example, say the father had an income of $7500 per month. Living at home he could very easily have enough money left over to subsidize the "kids" each month. But going into a nursing home almost his total income would be absorbed paying his own bills - SNF costs usually start at $200 per day plus medicines, doctors, incidentals, etc which are not included.
And none of the above takes into account the shock that you point out would occur when going from a condo to a house with not only a higher rent cost but also higher utilities and other expenses of a house.
I say chalk this one up to financial bullet dodged!
Any other inquiries we can pick apart for you? Anyone? Bueller? lol
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Bonny
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Post by Bonny on Dec 19, 2013 21:51:20 GMT -5
@sarajese,
That was just his check. He's 65 but she's 58. His last employment was in Sept 2007 and my guess is that he probably took early SS but you're right, I don't think he worked much because I did a quick look at my early SS payment and it would be about $300 more. And I haven't worked for the last 10 years!
I think they have been burning through whatever money they had supplementing Dad's gifts. But who knows how long Dad could stay around. Bottom line I don't think they could afford my house.
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comom1
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Post by comom1 on Dec 20, 2013 14:30:38 GMT -5
Oh lord, run from someone who has issues with electricity. We have a tenant that moved in about 7 months ago. She said that she wanted a quiet place. This unit fit her needs because she uses a cane and wanted few steps.
She'd been in just a couple of weeks and started complaining about noise from the apartment above her. She said that they were blasting surround sound during the middle of the night. Thing is, that tenant works nights and wasn't even home. No one around her has surround sound and I spend a lot of time up there and can tell you there's no loud surround sound at night.
Then she started complaining that people were shooting electricity into her. She claims that it makes her vibrate so badly that she can't function. She also told us that they were shooting it into her toilet and she just knew that one day it would explode while she was on it and the shards would kill her.
She walks around muttering that we're all evil. She harasses the other tenants around her. Our attorney says to give her a non-renewal notice but that we have no grounds to evict her. So, we're waiting out the next 5 months and hoping we don't lose any of our good tenants because of her. We've talked to them and they're sympathetic, but they'll only put up with so much.
She sends long letters with her rent check every month, usually complaining about "surround sound" and the electricity that's being shot into her. She made a point of saying that she was disabled, but not mentally ill. So, I'm guessing someone along the line diagnosed her as mentally ill, but since her reality is so altered, she won't believe it.
I'm sure it will be difficult to get her out, but she has to go. We've told the tenants around her that if she harasses them, they need to call the cops so we can get it on the record. Our leases state that we can evict if there are repeated police visits.
We've been lucky. We've had a couple tenants that were mentally ill, but not in a way that affected others. One was a hoarder and the other was a vet with severe PTSD. I've never had to deal with someone who's so off her rocker.
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Bonny
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Post by Bonny on Dec 20, 2013 15:09:43 GMT -5
Oh lord, run from someone who has issues with electricity. We have a tenant that moved in about 7 months ago. She said that she wanted a quiet place. This unit fit her needs because she uses a cane and wanted few steps. She'd been in just a couple of weeks and started complaining about noise from the apartment above her. She said that they were blasting surround sound during the middle of the night. Thing is, that tenant works nights and wasn't even home. No one around her has surround sound and I spend a lot of time up there and can tell you there's no loud surround sound at night. Then she started complaining that people were shooting electricity into her. She claims that it makes her vibrate so badly that she can't function. She also told us that they were shooting it into her toilet and she just knew that one day it would explode while she was on it and the shards would kill her. She walks around muttering that we're all evil. She harasses the other tenants around her. Our attorney says to give her a non-renewal notice but that we have no grounds to evict her. So, we're waiting out the next 5 months and hoping we don't lose any of our good tenants because of her. We've talked to them and they're sympathetic, but they'll only put up with so much. She sends long letters with her rent check every month, usually complaining about "surround sound" and the electricity that's being shot into her. She made a point of saying that she was disabled, but not mentally ill. So, I'm guessing someone along the line diagnosed her as mentally ill, but since her reality is so altered, she won't believe it. I'm sure it will be difficult to get her out, but she has to go. We've told the tenants around her that if she harasses them, they need to call the cops so we can get it on the record. Our leases state that we can evict if there are repeated police visits. We've been lucky. We've had a couple tenants that were mentally ill, but not in a way that affected others. One was a hoarder and the other was a vet with severe PTSD. I've never had to deal with someone who's so off her rocker. OMG! We really need to start a book called Tenant Stories.
I'm sure you did the LL check. What did they say about her?
I guess at this point if I were you I'd be tempted to do a "Cash for Keys" arrangement.
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comom1
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Post by comom1 on Dec 20, 2013 16:29:06 GMT -5
We send her letters every time she complains offering to let her out of her lease. We've offered incentives, but she wants to stay. The mgmt company checked with her prior landlord, but all they said was that she liked a quiet apartment. Since she was middle-aged and had good credit, they didn't check with other landlords. They won't make that mistake again, lol. At least we don't have to renew her lease. It will take a while to get her out, but we will, eventually.
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Dec 20, 2013 18:47:05 GMT -5
Wow.
Good luck to you both.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2013 11:16:23 GMT -5
11 more days of being landlords and then the condo goes on the market. I'm ready to not have the stress.
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milee
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Post by milee on Dec 21, 2013 11:43:50 GMT -5
The mgmt company checked with her prior landlord, but all they said was that she liked a quiet apartment. Since she was middle-aged and had good credit, they didn't check with other landlords. They won't make that mistake again, lol. That is a good example of someone telling the truth, but telling it in a way that benefits them. Yes, yes she does like a quiet apartment. [And you'll need to coat the inside of the apartment in both soundproofing and tinfoil to shut her up...after you evict the aliens living in the plumbing of course.]
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Nazgul Girl
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Post by Nazgul Girl on Dec 21, 2013 13:07:19 GMT -5
We've had a number of tenants over the years, but we've never run into one that was "electrical." Now, I'll be on the lookout in case we get a nutjob. I think that people see pseudoscientific shows on tv and take the "science" to heart. If a person has paranoid delusions, something like "electro-magnetic wave forces " can provide a comforting explanation to their emotional turmoil.
I did run into one potential tenant who was preoccupied with bugs, even though we never had any bugs in the rental house at all. We passed on her. We don't like trouble.
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Bonny
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Post by Bonny on Dec 21, 2013 13:43:15 GMT -5
We've had a number of tenants over the years, but we've never run into one that was "electrical." Now, I'll be on the lookout in case we get a nutjob. I think that people see pseudoscientific shows on tv and take the "science" to heart. If a person has paranoid delusions, something like "electro-magnetic wave forces " can provide a comforting explanation to their emotional turmoil.
I did run into one potential tenant who was preoccupied with bugs, even though we never had any bugs in the rental house at all. We passed on her. We don't like trouble. Well we do have a lot of wildlife where we are including snakes. I remember one time when the PITA tenant asked if we could "snake proof" the yard. Uhhhhhh you're on 1.7 acres in the desert. It ain't gonna happen.
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TheOtherMe
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Post by TheOtherMe on Dec 22, 2013 18:15:40 GMT -5
Glad they withdrew the application. The radio waves would have had me running away fast.
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