ugonow
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Post by ugonow on Feb 19, 2011 1:25:44 GMT -5
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Loopdilou
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Post by Loopdilou on Feb 19, 2011 1:32:48 GMT -5
Now isn't that curious.. left out cops, firemen, and other unions that supported him. Shocking Why would one need to break the other unions but not those? Hmm? I wonder if Walker is even capable of rationalizing that (I doubt it).
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henryclay
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Post by henryclay on Feb 20, 2011 1:03:01 GMT -5
Sounds to me like Governor Walker took a lesson on how to treat favored unions from the way Obama treats favored unions. What's wrong with that? It couldn't be a sore point just because Walker is a Republican could it?
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jkapp
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Post by jkapp on Feb 20, 2011 11:26:11 GMT -5
Now isn't that curious.. left out cops, firemen, and other unions that supported him. Shocking Why would one need to break the other unions but not those? Hmm? I wonder if Walker is even capable of rationalizing that (I doubt it). You mean just like unions got cushy contracts in the past because they supported the democrats who were elected? Let ye reap what ye sow... This was a long time coming...the fraudulent relationship between public unions and elected officials has been raping citizens for years.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2011 11:31:20 GMT -5
Yeah... a 15 year professional with a higher degree making 50K with good benefits... that's sure raping the system...
Lets not beat around the bush... this is about the undervaluing of teachers, and the conception that teachers make too much money and are somehow not on par with other professionals...
Well, fine... teach your own kids...
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jkapp
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Post by jkapp on Feb 20, 2011 14:05:19 GMT -5
Yeah... a 15 year professional with a higher degree making 50K with good benefits... that's sure raping the system... Lets not beat around the bush... this is about the undervaluing of teachers, and the conception that teachers make too much money and are somehow not on par with other professionals... Well, fine... teach your own kids... Umm, that's exactly what teachers say when shown the poor results of our education system. When students so well it's ALL about the teachers! When students do poorly it's ALL about every other factor EXCEPT teachers. Well, we're not buying their bs anymore. Since the inception of public teacher unions the quality of education has shot progressively downwards...it's not a coincidence.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2011 14:07:54 GMT -5
LOL... you are selectively reading history... exactly when was this glory day of public education you speak of... i need a specific year, please... i'll do the research myself, i know you won't be bothered... but i'd love to know when the quality of education in this country was at its height (before the 'progressive downward shot')... Thanks.
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ugonow
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Post by ugonow on Feb 21, 2011 8:46:35 GMT -5
A lot of the troubles in our school system,imo,is that everyone blames the gubmint fopr their childs lackings. Parents nowdays expect teachers to teach and parent.
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Post by Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ on Feb 21, 2011 10:26:54 GMT -5
A lot of the troubles in our school system,imo,is that everyone blames the gubmint fopr their childs lackings. Parents nowdays expect teachers to teach and parent.
You left out baby sit and feed three meals per day. One of the biggest factors in successful schooling is heavily involved parents.
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ugonow
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Post by ugonow on Feb 21, 2011 10:33:11 GMT -5
A big exhalt for you.
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zipity
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Post by zipity on Feb 21, 2011 11:48:30 GMT -5
Sounds to me like Governor Walker took a lesson on how to treat favored unions from the way Obama treats favored unions. What's wrong with that? It couldn't be a sore point just because Walker is a Republican could it?
I can't believe this. So all the talk from republicans about democrats pandering to the unions was just talk. Now the the pubs have figured it out pandering to the unions is a good thing? Are you sure you want to stick by this comment Henry? IMO, pandering to the unions sucks regardless of which party is doing it.
Yeah... a 15 year professional with a higher degree making 50K with good benefits... that's sure raping the system... Lets not beat around the bush... this is about the undervaluing of teachers, and the conception that teachers make too much money and are somehow not on par with other professionals...
Don't let a little support for collective bargaining make you lose perspective on this. Having experience and a masters degree doesn't necessarily put teachers on par with other professionals. There are many professionals out there with experience and masters degrees who each year have to prove their worth based on their prior year's performance. The unemployment lines are filled with experienced professionals with post grad degrees, many of whom have delivered outstanding performance. Teachers have chosen a different path which trades higher income for a 8-9 month work year and a pension. If they don't want to base their compensation and career on their own performance then IMO they are entitled to the best deal the union can get for them BUT that won't and shouldn't be competitive with what they could make outside of teaching where they'd work a full year and be responsible for their own retirement. Teachers in my town have enjoyed pay raises totaling 19% over the last 10 years. They can still accumulate sick days indefinitely cashing in this years sick time 20 years from now at that pay level when they retire. Meanwhile at least half the professionals I know (computer/software industry) have had flat income levels and typically 1-2 years of unemployment during that same time period. Unions need to be brought back to reality but that doesn't mean they should lose the right to bargain.
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ugonow
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Post by ugonow on Feb 25, 2011 17:01:17 GMT -5
Will people swallow these provisions anybetter knowing he is also giving tax breaks to coporations?---"The legislation would also borrow money from a federal welfare program to cover further state shortfalls, and it includes a provision that would allow the sale of the state’s public utilities without a bidding process or public oversight. Democrats say that there is no reason to make such sweeping The bill includes a provision that would allow the state to sell or contract out the operation of heating, cooling, and power plants without a bidding process and without consulting the state’s independent utility regulator. Democratic legislators worried aloud that the process would attract abuse, and Jon Peacock, director of the Wisconsin Budget Project, called the no-bid approach a “red flag.” The bill also employs “emergency” powers that would allow the governor’s appointed health secretary to redefine the foundations of the state’s Medicaid program, Badgercare, ranging from eligibility to premiums, with only passive legislative review. The attorney in the legislature’s nonpartisan reference bureau who prepared the bill warned that a court could invalidate the statute for violating separation of powers doctrine. The legislation, the lawyer wrote in a “drafter’s note” about the bill, would allow the state Department of Health Services to “change any Medical Assistance law, for any reason, at any time, and potentially without notice or public hearing... in addition to eliminating notice and publication requirements, [the changes] would leave the emergency rules in effect without any requirement to make permanent rules and without any time limit.” www.nationaljournal.com/is-scott-walker-s-budget-plan-a-bait-and-switch--20110223
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2011 17:26:34 GMT -5
Yes ugonow... this is just his set up bill for the 2 year budget he has to unleash soon... it was supposed to be out by now... but he won't release it until this bill is passed... i can't wait to read that one.....
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verrip1
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Post by verrip1 on Feb 25, 2011 18:01:50 GMT -5
Dems never did know how to be gracious in defeat. They continue to think that, by throwing large quantities of irrelevant excrement against the wall, something will stick. They haven't any interest in discussing anything, just making countless ridiculous accusations and engaging in character assassination.
But that's OK. If they like to fluff each other, it's no skin off anybody else's nose.
They are setting themselves up for The Big Fall. This year's Wisconsin spending controls will go into effect one way or the other: teacher layoffs or cuts in teacher pension funding. The Dems have already lost, they're just too petulant to act like adults. Maturity was never one of their strong points.
On an even more positive note, I suspect that there will be half or fewer Democrats in the Wisconsin Assembly and Senate after the next election.
They will be getting exactly what they deserve. The losers.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2011 19:07:55 GMT -5
The have asked repeatedly to table just the collective bargaining part of the measure so that they can hold public hearings and put it up for discussion... but NO... because Walker needs to pass this bill so he can put for the next one...
Why would you think that? When every poll i've seen says increase support for dems, decreased for the governor?
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b2r
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Post by b2r on Feb 25, 2011 19:21:09 GMT -5
Re: So, what is in the Wi."budget bill"?
Death Panels?
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formerexpat
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Post by formerexpat on Feb 25, 2011 19:30:06 GMT -5
Why does it have to be inadequate union teachers as a whole teaching your children or teaching your own children? We currently spend nearly $10k per student in the US: www.edweek.org/rc/articles/2009/01/21/sow0121.h27.htmlHere is a high school that graduated all students and has 100% college acceptance rate for the 2nd year for a cost of about $11.7k per for 445 students: www.urbanprep.org/about/pdf/Urban_Prep_Year_In_Review_2008_to_2009.pdfLet the parents decide where is best to send their children with vouchers. I'm sure graduation rates would increase, schools would clean out the bad teachers to remain competitive and the good teachers would be paid better. Seems like a win / win for the students and the teachers within the system that are actually good and make a difference in students lives. [/size]
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2011 19:36:16 GMT -5
expat... i mean i don't choose to teach public school anymore... I don't want to toot my own horn... but i think i was pretty d-good at it... i put in the time, i went above and beyond, I cared, my kids made progress... but it is not worth it... so i don't do it any more... there are several teacher who just go through the motions who are still in the game... that's ALL you will have left when you reduce pay and benefits further... the ones who can't cut it elsewhere... it will not get better... it will only get worse...
Win Win for SOME... are you suggesting we get rid of universal education goals... we should not educate everyone? Because that would not work for EVERYONE... which is who the current system attempts to educate...
Please explain to me how you think merit pay for teachers should work? Thanks.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2011 19:48:20 GMT -5
but NO... because Walker needs to pass this bill so he can put for the next one... Your right. The next one is another completely outrageous bill requiring identification at the voting booth. Yes, it's horrid that you would actually have to prove you are who you say you are, to cast a vote. Can you even imagine? I'm sure they will run away from that one too. Read more: notmsnmoney.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=politics&action=display&thread=3612#ixzz1F1MnOJJd
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2011 19:50:35 GMT -5
I mean his next budget bill dearie... i'm not sure what you're talking about... I'm takling about the 2 year budget he was SUPPOSED to come out with this week, but will not put out until the current measure passes...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2011 19:55:06 GMT -5
ok, glad you know what you are talking about.
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vonnie6200
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Post by vonnie6200 on Feb 25, 2011 20:03:03 GMT -5
I mean his next budget bill dearie... i'm not sure what you're talking about... I'm takling about the 2 year budget he was SUPPOSED to come out with this week, but will not put out until the current measure passes... Why was he SUPPOSED to come out with it this week?
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handyman2
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Post by handyman2 on Feb 25, 2011 20:15:13 GMT -5
We just might want to do a little research. The labor agreement between the firemen, and police are different from the other union contracts. The bill would actually bring the opposing unions in line with fire and police agreements. So what is wrong with that. The media does not make that point do they?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2011 20:23:37 GMT -5
Because he originally said it would be out... www.wkow.com/Global/story.asp?S=14058507I don't think you are correct there handy... do you have a link... everything i read said they were 'exempt' from the current bill... How would this bring everyone 'in line'... fire and police will still have collective bargaining rights...
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formerexpat
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Post by formerexpat on Feb 25, 2011 20:49:09 GMT -5
Plenty of research has shown that increasing teacher pay doesn't better the results in our students. We've tried that method and failed miserably.
Was it pay that motivated you to be such a good teacher or other drivers? What was it about teaching specifically that made you stop teaching in public schools? Why is it no longer worth it? What changed to change it from "being worth it" to "not being worth it"?
Not to shy away from your "how do you determine merit increase" question, but let me turn it on you - how should you determine merit increases? Realistically? There must be a better way than a system that focus primarily around education and tenure, regardless of whether the teacher cares or not or puts in the effort.
We end up with an educated and experienced teaching staff that doesn't give a damn about the children and allows them to fall behind most civilized countries in the world.
Were teachers really one of the best paid careers in the 50s & 60s so much so that it made it worth it for them to be in the system?
You're going to have to tell me - you're more familiar with the system and have a few years on me.
[/size]
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Feb 25, 2011 20:55:42 GMT -5
How is this relevant? We had a much higher percentage of the population that didn't finish high school back then. Kids learned much less then than now.
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handyman2
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Post by handyman2 on Feb 25, 2011 20:57:35 GMT -5
Oped: I tried to find the news report I read it may have been taken down. But in essence it said that the fire and police cannot strike and in a bargining session they are subject to accepting mediation of an agreement by an independent mediator and this would also apply to the other unions. I could have misunderstood what it said. You get so much info different from both sides it does get confusing.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2011 21:04:12 GMT -5
We wanted one parent at home. My husband with an AS degree made more than i could with a MS and 8 years teaching experience... I do miss the health insurance, but what i miss more isn't that we had the benefit, but the overall benefit any group plan has of being protected from pre-existing condition issues...
Burocracy of teaching is also bad... so many hoops... and honestly... it was breaking my heart more and more... once i had kids it became harder to separate, harder to deal with kids in bad home situations... and the compensation was just not enough to keep me doing it any more... it takes amazing energy... and it garners very little respect...
I don't know how to determine merit pay fairly. I wish i did. I love the idea of it. I don't like coasters any more than the next person. I taught with at least two teachers i felt should be fired in my career... (and get this... one was forced out and one was going through the 'reform' process... either get better or be fired...) and a few that were hanging on too long... who needed to go find something else...
But there are just too many variables for me to see a fair merit pay system... teachers can't pick their students. They have to teach everyone. they can't control home life, and a thousand other things that impact achievement and success...
Teaching was one of the only careers available to women in the 50s 60s... it paid crap... and had lots of poor working condition issues before the unions were formed...
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formerexpat
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Post by formerexpat on Feb 25, 2011 21:20:09 GMT -5
All I hear is how we had one of the best educational systems in the world in the 50's and 60's. How did we have such talented teachers to teach our children then but now are losing the most talented teachers because we don't pay teachers enough? Or was the talent never there; our competition was just so weak? I don't know?? I hate to use CS as my reference, but: www.csmonitor.com/USA/Education/2010/0610/Graduation-rate-for-US-high-schoolers-falls-for-second-straight-yearThis seems to suggest that the peak was in the late 60's. But this link...http://www.childtrendsdatabank.org/pdf/1_PDF.pdf on page 9 suggests drop out rates decreased from 14.2 to 9.4 from 1972 to 2005. I wonder if the 3x increase increase in expenditure per student is worth that <5% decrease? [/size]
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2011 21:26:26 GMT -5
Why Johnny Can't Read was written in the 1955 .... the idea of a 'golden age' of education is a myth...
Is your increase based on inflation corrected dollars?
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