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Post by marjar on Feb 18, 2011 18:56:36 GMT -5
<<< I don't see how offering the book as an extra curricular text is disrespectful to others beliefs... >>> ...probably in the same way people may object to the Bible, or the Koran, or the Vedas being taught in a public school, even as an extra-curricular... and while the books in this case are not sacred texts by any stretch of the imagination, it shouldn't be a stretch to understand why people want their tax dollars to fund things they want, or not fund things they don't... ...and krickett, I hope you come back... Many of those are taught, as they should be.You can teach them, you just can't preach them.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2011 19:02:05 GMT -5
I wouldn't care if anyone wanted to use those texts in an extracurricular class. Especially if they were being taught as literature/history. I wouldn't take a class that taught them as science, but i have a few friends who do use that stuff as science texts... i wouldn't be offended if they wanted to do so, just wouldn't take the class.
I think the only thing i would find offensive would be the blatent outright advocacy of harm or opression to someone/group. For instance a book advocating rape or genocide?... I'm having a hard time coming up with a good example i guess.
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Loopdilou
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Post by Loopdilou on Feb 18, 2011 19:37:44 GMT -5
Yah, I'm having the same issue oped... because even a book that advocates rape or genocide could be useful if looked at from a critical standpoint.
I have no problem with sacred texts being taught in lit/history as long as they're not being used to.. advocate for or even specifically against.. the religion. Which is why religious studies are taught in a number of prominent public universities.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2011 19:37:48 GMT -5
Fire their asses!
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Feb 18, 2011 20:02:53 GMT -5
Kids in middle school give eachother oral sex in the bathroom.. I don't think they are naive as you are giving them credit for. Then the kids shouldn't be titillated or driven sexually insane by a small passage in an otherwise big book. mmm not sure about that , some friends , they were girls , got me into reading detailed text books on sexual explicit in the High School Library, back in the day, and remember in college, when monthly Play Boy came out, the pictures were air brushed back then, be fore Pent House with the legs all over the place, they , never me of course , would hold up to the window trying to see , if possible in the air brushing they just missed by a teeny tiny bit one little...yep, men are pigs.
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Malarky
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Post by Malarky on Feb 18, 2011 20:14:12 GMT -5
If you don't want your kid to take the VOLUNTARY course or read the book, then fine, don't sign them up and don't sign the permission slip. But don't tell me or my child that wants to read the book and take the course that they can't because you find it offensive. Worry about your own kid and let me worry about mine I believe it was steff who posted this, I lost part of it. I heartily concur. When I was 10 my mother went with me to the local library because I was complaining that they wouldn't let me take out any book that wasn't in the kids section. She made it clear that I had permission to read any book I chose. My kids have the same permission. Some books may be more graphic than when I was younger, but then so too is society in general.
And if this happened in our school, that a book was removed due to the complaint of one family, you better believe that I would be working toward firing the board. By all means, forbid your child to read the book and let me make my own choices for my child.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Feb 18, 2011 20:36:10 GMT -5
My childhood was much the same, Malarky. My father made it clear to the librarians that I could check out any book I wished, and I did ... as did my children. To this day, not one of us has turned out to be a sex fiend, or a pervert.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2011 20:37:37 GMT -5
My father made it clear to the librarians that I could check out any book I wished Seriously? Where did you grow up?
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cael
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Post by cael on Feb 18, 2011 20:43:54 GMT -5
karma to you, Malarky!
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Feb 18, 2011 20:58:13 GMT -5
Oklahoma, Archie.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2011 21:01:56 GMT -5
I can remember asking the high school librarian if she happened to have the new Jean Auel book and she said she had it, but it was in a back room and you had to have permission to check it out... since the first couple were my fathers, and he knew i'd read them, i knew i could get permission, but i didn't bother... again, i never even thought of the content as being 'taboo'... until she said that... then i remember blushing heartily... but i never asked again about a book i didn't see out on the shelves. That was the school library though.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2011 21:09:16 GMT -5
Ok. Thanks. Not sure why I wanted know that.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Feb 18, 2011 21:12:21 GMT -5
Hee! I wasn't sure either, Archie, but it's okay by me!
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Malarky
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Post by Malarky on Feb 18, 2011 21:40:19 GMT -5
The library in question was in Somerville, MA. My parents owned well over 500 books. There seemed to be no subject left uncovered. Except, there were more books in the world and I wanted to know what was in them. I have to say that growing up with this sort of freedom gave me access to a very broad array of knowledge. If I don't know something, I know how to find it without ever having to google it. When I was really young, I'm sure I missed a lot of things that I would catch if I reread some of those books now. I am adamantly against the banning of books, and of sanitizing books like Huck Finn. After that, I spent another 10+ years of my life in NH. I'm disappointed and discouraged by this decision, but not really surprised.
It gives a lot away to say this, but I live in a town where there is a mural on the wall of a public building. It depicts Indians with chains around their necks. It's gruesome and fascinating and every once in a while there's a movement to paint over it. I'm always opposed because I don't believe in sanitizing history. It's a fact, it happened. Covering it up doesn't make it any less true. I think every resource should be out there, not just those that are deemed acceptable.by the few.
Holbrook painted the mural in 1937 as part of a New Deal program to beautify public buildings and provide work for artists during the Depression. The image depicts a 1670s scene of Eliot preaching to a group of "Praying Indians" who are being drawn away to Deer Island in chains. They were interned there for about a year during King Philip’s War in 1975. LOL, I think they transposed a couple of numbers. I was alive in 1975 and I distinctly remember King Phillips war was long over. Unfortunately I can't seem to post pictures here.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2011 21:42:44 GMT -5
I hear that.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Feb 18, 2011 21:45:32 GMT -5
I couldn't agree more, Malarky. I'm so thankful to my parents, who were both avid readers, for giving me the opportunity to engage my curiosity through books of all kinds. It's a gift I've always valued highly.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Feb 18, 2011 22:24:43 GMT -5
Then the kids shouldn't be titillated or driven sexually insane by a small passage in an otherwise big book. mmm not sure about that , some friends , they were girls , got me into reading detailed text books on sexual explicit in the High School Library, back in the day, and remember in college, when monthly Play Boy came out, the pictures were air brushed back then, be fore Pent House with the legs all over the place, they , never me of course , would hold up to the window trying to see , if possible in the air brushing they just missed by a teeny tiny bit one little...yep, men are pigs. Dezi-you were in high school at least 20 years ago. Today's kids have the internet where anything can be found. Do you really think the boys (and girls) will sneak that page and half passage into the bedroom to diddle themselves when they have computers in their bedrooms with pictures and everything! Times have changed young man.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Feb 18, 2011 22:34:12 GMT -5
Here you go Malarky-the only one on the internet. The image is small of "John Eliot Speaks to the Natick Indians"
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Feb 18, 2011 23:24:14 GMT -5
give it time, Malarky. I'd be willing to bet that those idiots that demanded the mascot name be changed have never set foot in that public building to be able to see the mural. one of them will get there eventually, and it will get painted over.
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Feb 19, 2011 12:47:49 GMT -5
My childhood was much the same, Malarky. My father made it clear to the librarians that I could check out any book I wished, and I did ... as did my children. To this day, not one of us has turned out to be a sex fiend, or a pervert. Good for old dad...smart one he is as are you. I am sure , if you were being influenced in a unhealthy way, say, as a example, Mien Kamph{to get through that one, forget it, front to back, I tried twice, forget it} Protocols of Zion and such, it would become something that he or you would be aware of by actions of the child/person, and could then be addressed. Possible not , kept secret, but reality wise, I think it would be very apparent.
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Malarky
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Post by Malarky on Feb 19, 2011 17:49:20 GMT -5
Thanks for posting the pic, Tenn. I used to walk around downtown when my kids were younger. I found that mural to be a great opportunity to have discussions about where we started and where we are as a society. It was a jumping off point to have discussions about slavery, about the Great Depression and what life was like back them. About art. It's depressing that others see it only in the light that it offends them. What Chiver was referring to is that a couple of years ago, people from outside our community decided to be offended by the "Natick Redmen" and coerced the school board into changing the name, despite the fact the the few Praying Indians left and the majority of the townspeople voted to keep it. Personally, I have voted against every single one of them since then. It pissed me off to no end that it was put to a vote, and the will of the people was ignored. It's created a lot of long standing animosity here.
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Feb 19, 2011 20:39:57 GMT -5
mmm not sure about that , some friends , they were girls , got me into reading detailed text books on sexual explicit in the High School Library, back in the day, and remember in college, when monthly Play Boy came out, the pictures were air brushed back then, be fore Pent House with the legs all over the place, they , never me of course , would hold up to the window trying to see , if possible in the air brushing they just missed by a teeny tiny bit one little...yep, men are pigs. Dezi-you were in high school at least 20 years ago. Today's kids have the Internet where anything can be found. Do you really think the boys (and girls) will sneak that page and half passage into the bedroom to diddle themselves when they have computers in their bedrooms with pictures and everything! Times have changed young man. I know , I know...[sigh} I found those links/ sites...me so bad..I last 5 minutes on them, then boredom, that's about it....but what a 5 minutes. Truthfully, the page up against the window, more then 20 years ago, and one thinks they actual catch one missed air brushed...quick disappearing into their rooms, door shut...didn't take much back then, better times..today, ho hum...next.
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Feb 19, 2011 20:45:32 GMT -5
What Chiver was referring to is that a couple of years ago, people from outside our community decided to be offended by the "Natick Redmen" and coerced the school board into changing the name, despite the fact the the few Praying Indians left and the majority of the townspeople voted to keep it. Personally, I have voted against every single one of them since then. It pissed me off to no end that it was put to a vote, and the will of the people was ignored. It's created a lot of long standing animosity here. thank you for voting logically. I don't live there anymore, and can't vote in town, but every time I hear about it....I get steamed. to go further on the mascot, what really frosts me about it is that the name originally had nothing to do with the Natick Indians - the HS team colors were red forever. at a football game way back when, the PA guy said something like "look at the red men running down the field" because of their uniforms. if anything, just yank the headdress in the logo, and anything that links the name to Indians. people can be so hung up on being PC that they miss the forest for the trees.
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Feb 19, 2011 21:10:34 GMT -5
The library in question was in Somerville, MA. My parents owned well over 500 books. There seemed to be no subject left uncovered. Except, there were more books in the world and I wanted to know what was in them. I have to say that growing up with this sort of freedom gave me access to a very broad array of knowledge. If I don't know something, I know how to find it without ever having to google it. When I was really young, I'm sure I missed a lot of things that I would catch if I reread some of those books now. I am adamantly against the banning of books, and of sanitizing books like Huck Finn. After that, I spent another 10+ years of my life in NH. I'm disappointed and discouraged by this decision, but not really surprised. It gives a lot away to say this, but I live in a town where there is a mural on the wall of a public building. It depicts Indians with chains around their necks. It's gruesome and fascinating and every once in a while there's a movement to paint over it. I'm always opposed because I don't believe in sanitizing history. It's a fact, it happened. Covering it up doesn't make it any less true. I think every resource should be out there, not just those that are deemed acceptable.by the few. Holbrook painted the mural in 1937 as part of a New Deal program to beautify public buildings and provide work for artists during the Depression. The image depicts a 1670s scene of Eliot preaching to a group of "Praying Indians" who are being drawn away to Deer Island in chains. They were interned there for about a year during King Philip’s War in 1975.LOL, I think they transposed a couple of numbers. I was alive in 1975 and I distinctly remember King Phillips war was long over. Unfortunately I can't seem to post pictures here. My High School has/had murals from that time, same thing, it was built as a WPA project..they had the same design , depending on the size of the school needed, also in the Town hall if i remember, idea was to employ artists...can't remember what they were on... School still the high school but inside been completly re done..went through it a few years ago on, and won't tell you years, . reunion..rally some place now, even has a bank, hugh library where old auditorium was, we had two class rooms opened up...
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Feb 19, 2011 22:59:39 GMT -5
I like WPA art. Technically the government owns every piece of it.
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Feb 19, 2011 23:19:46 GMT -5
I like WPA art. Technically the government owns every piece of it. ----------------------------------------------------- I just love this google..Your post got me thinking, won't tell you how long ago but it was a long time and I started thinking possible the art was some place else, Post office for example, so a google, by the way according to the link it wasn't called WPA art though that was my google header and my town High School. Yup, I was right, scrolled down, Hamden High school, wish there was a link to the actual art, not that one though others yes. Neat though. Most of that was done late 30's so over 70 years now, I think that really is neat and I guarantee not 1/1000 pupils know the history, and needless to say, neither do, I bet, most of the teachers do either. Seems Connecticut was a hot bed for the art..small state, lots of art. I wonder if the stink of spending public finds for that wass going on at that time, wast of resources..actually while I can't remember the scenes , I do know it was impressive in the lobby of the school three walls I think. ------------------------------------------------------------------- www.wpamurals.com/Connecticut.html________________________-_____________________________ All these years later, still can get the hairs of some riled up.... Greenwich - "Mural may not be welcomed back to school," in The Stamford Advocate By Keach Hagey, Staff Writer (June 4, 2006) - article on "Greenwich debates whether to return 'violent' mural to school." It is James Daugherty's 1935 mural entitled "The Life and Times of General Israel Putham of Connecticut." Originally painted for the Greenwich Town Hall, according to the article it was displayed for nearly 60 years in the Hamilton Avenue School in Greenwich. It was removed in 1998 and restored. It is now in the Greenwich Library but is scheduled to return to the Hamilton Avenue School when its renovation is completed. Public debate continues about whether or not the cleaned and restored mural is too violent for school children to gaze upon (burning at the stake, tomahawks, deadly wolves). - information courtesy of Kathleen Ryan -------------------------------------------------------------------- Ok, I will stop but found a bunch of stuff,,,mural too, I remember it now, . and even the artist , our guy LOOKS like a artist ...working on the mural..I am expecting a Canadian visitor , and I can't blame him coming by wih some ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ in a second but this is neat. -------------------------------------------- www.flickr.com/photos/ctarchives/4898034997/
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Feb 19, 2011 23:54:59 GMT -5
Hamden High school-Dixwell Ave.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Feb 21, 2011 0:40:07 GMT -5
To clarify things again-- no book was banned. The school board elected not to include it on a list of elective reading options. Clearly, more books are off that list than on it. So, setting aside what we think about the book-- let's just have a moment of honesty here: taking it off the list at school doesn't mean that if you want your kid to read it, they can't.
It simply means it won't be an option at school. The Bible isn't an option (though in some government run schools in the United States, the q'ouran (SP) is mandatory)-- again, it's Sunday night which is official palmbeachpaul "do your own homework" night, but kids read the Bible. Kids read what their parents want them to read-- and that's the right way to look at it.
The liberal left has an interest- as I pointed out earlier in this thread- in pushing books that in one way shape or form fit their agenda. If this was truly a simple "choice", it wouldn't be that big a deal. One book off some list-- one book potentially not read in a HS career by kids who will graduate and on average read 5 non-fiction books between their diploma and their funeral-- really doesn't matter.
No, the libs have flipped sh** over this because they lost something here. There's more to this story-- not the least of which is that they have it in for these people dating back to when they got the "Nickeled and Dimed" propaganda off the list.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Feb 21, 2011 0:55:02 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure your statement concerning the liberal left having an interest can be easily flipped to the other side, paul. It's not as though the conservative right doesn't have an interest, after all. Their interest is in getting books removed from the reading list (in an extra-curricular class that required parental permission to attend).
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Feb 21, 2011 1:07:18 GMT -5
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