chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Feb 17, 2011 21:02:57 GMT -5
this isn't necessarily political, but it seems a little too academic a topic for EE. a family in Bedford, NH, has just gotten a second book pulled from the curriculum at the town high school because they deem it offensive. the story from the Nashua Telegraph. IMHO, this family is clearly religious and more socially conservative than the average. that's all well and good, but if they feel that they want their children to learn what fits within their moral bounds, why aren't they home-schooling all of their children rather than just the one that was so horribly offended by the finance book they challenged first? or if they cannot home-school, there are plenty of religious schools that would likely fit their needs. I think they are totally welcome to exercise their freedom NOT to read these books, but they are seeking to limit the freedom of other children to learn from them.
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Loopdilou
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Post by Loopdilou on Feb 17, 2011 21:15:30 GMT -5
*angry eyebrow twitch*
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Feb 17, 2011 21:18:16 GMT -5
that was my first reaction, too....
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Loopdilou
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Post by Loopdilou on Feb 17, 2011 21:23:21 GMT -5
I generally consider myself a pacifist. But there's a special place in hell for people who ban books.
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handyman2
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Post by handyman2 on Feb 17, 2011 22:35:56 GMT -5
I agree that there is some subject matter that does not belong in a public or private school. However books that are relitive to the enhancement of the educational progress should never be banned based on one families dislike of them.
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Post by marjar on Feb 17, 2011 23:04:37 GMT -5
The parents had to sign permission slips for their children to participate in this intersession. If a parent objected, don't let their kids participate. Why pull it from the curriculum?
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Feb 18, 2011 0:10:58 GMT -5
this isn't necessarily political, but it seems a little too academic a topic for EE. a family in Bedford, NH, has just gotten a second book pulled from the curriculum at the town high school because they deem it offensive. the story from the Nashua Telegraph. IMHO, this family is clearly religious and more socially conservative than the average. that's all well and good, but if they feel that they want their children to learn what fits within their moral bounds, why aren't they home-schooling all of their children rather than just the one that was so horribly offended by the finance book they challenged first? or if they cannot home-school, there are plenty of religious schools that would likely fit their needs. I think they are totally welcome to exercise their freedom NOT to read these books, but they are seeking to limit the freedom of other children to learn from them. How much sex is in a finance book? Were the division problems too risque? Two 'goes into' eight how many times?As for Water For Elephants-excellent book-if nothing else it's about animal cruelty and circus life. I suppose it had a couple of passages pertaining to sex but I wasn't titillated by it.
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Feb 18, 2011 0:48:50 GMT -5
...at the risk of hijacking the thread, how is this different from getting other things banned, like words?
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Feb 18, 2011 1:02:17 GMT -5
...at the risk of hijacking the thread, how is this different from getting other things banned, like words? Can you provide an example.
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floridayankee
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Post by floridayankee on Feb 18, 2011 8:44:41 GMT -5
As for Water For Elephants-excellent book-if nothing else it's about animal cruelty and circus life. I suppose it had a couple of passages pertaining to sex but I wasn't titillated by it. I remember a cleaner we had at the base in RI....said he couldn't clean the ladies room because he got "chubbed up" cleaning the ladies toilets. You never know what will titillate those that ain't quite right in the head.....
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cael
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Post by cael on Feb 18, 2011 8:59:04 GMT -5
...at the risk of hijacking the thread, how is this different from getting other things banned, like words? Can you provide an example. Do you mean an example like this: a high school trying to BAN use of the "word" "meep"? That happened near me. kids were using it in different ways or it was disruptive or something really, really ridiculous. I have no words. I have no words re: book banning either... ?!?!@&*@#!
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cael
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Post by cael on Feb 18, 2011 8:59:29 GMT -5
I generally consider myself a pacifist. But there's a special place in hell for people who ban books. karma!!!
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cael
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Post by cael on Feb 18, 2011 9:04:30 GMT -5
One policy (of a few) of my hippie liberal mother that bothered me growing up was that she'd actually veto books I wanted to read occasionally. I wanted to read "Choose your own adventure" books when I was 8 or 9, for some reason that wasn't allowed. When I was 14 I borrowed a copy of "Gone with the wind" from a friend, but had to return it after school ended - mom wouldn't let me buy a copy, she was opposed to the rampant use of the N-word, I had to get it from the library. I never really understood that, seeing as my parents are hippie lefty unitarian universalists. I mean, she didn't have a problem with me reading "To kill a mockingbird" for school, but didn't that use the N-word too? quite aggravating. I won't be censoring my kids' reading.
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Feb 18, 2011 9:36:42 GMT -5
Snerdley, Book 1: "“Nickel and Dimed: On Not Getting By In America,” which was removed from the high school’s personal finance course last month." I think they got this one removed because of a comment about Jesus being a "wine-guzzling vagrant and precocious socialist." Book 2: "he was appalled by the “graphic descriptions” of oral sex and masturbation in “Water for Elephants,” which is a historical novel about an old man remembering his time as a circus veterinarian during the Great Depression." That seems pretty reasonable to me. Why can't they read Shakespeare or something else? There are millions of better choices. I doubt anyone would object if a book depicting Mohammed as a wine guzzling vagrant was removed. It is offensive because it is intended to offend and has no basis in historical accounts so it should be removed. And, sorry, I don't really need my child attending public school and reading books on oral sex, etc. Ridiculous. Parents absolutely have a right to go to the school and hold the schools accountable for what they as taxpayers are funding. the finance book was for a personal finance class. the first child was offended by the comment about Jesus. 'Water for Elephants' was to be used in a special session that would be during school break, for kids that chose to sign up for extra classes. the book was chosen for the historical merits, not for its instructional capacity for fellatio. why not just have your kid sign up for a different class in the extra session? or better yet, find a school that teaches the way you want your children to learn.
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cael
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Post by cael on Feb 18, 2011 10:06:41 GMT -5
It's the same family I think. ridiculous. I marginally agree with parents having the right to personally veto a book for *their* child, but not bet it banned for the whole school. (I say marginally because of course parents can do that, I just wouldn't.)
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cael
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Post by cael on Feb 18, 2011 10:07:36 GMT -5
They actually took their first kid *out of school* because of the Jesus reference in Nickel and Dimed. I find that downright ludicrous. Then again, I'm not a fundamentalist, so who knows.
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Post by marjar on Feb 18, 2011 10:32:41 GMT -5
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Post by marjar on Feb 18, 2011 10:38:20 GMT -5
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floridayankee
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Post by floridayankee on Feb 18, 2011 10:45:47 GMT -5
They actually took their first kid *out of school* because of the Jesus reference in Nickel and Dimed. I find that downright ludicrous. Then again, I'm not a fundamentalist, so who knows. Moby Dick must drive 'em absolutely nuts, eh?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2011 11:12:58 GMT -5
I can't understand why people are so afraid of words and ideas that they have to work to stop others from reading them... (and don't they know this never works anyway... I'm guessing reading of Water for Elephants will increase quite a bit when word gets out...)
A mother in homeschool group was saying yesterday that her son, who is into political science and war history, etc, wants to read the communist manifesto, and she's afraid to let him... my first question was why she would want to give it more authority and power than it deserved by suggesting it was forbidden... the second was whether or not she felt the values she had taught him were so weak that one reference to something else was going to sway him away...
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Feb 18, 2011 11:14:08 GMT -5
<<< Moby Dick must drive 'em absolutely nuts, eh? >>>
...indubitably... just like the names Jesus and Mohammed and Ganesh...
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Feb 18, 2011 11:19:29 GMT -5
<<< I can't understand why people are so afraid of words and ideas that they have to work to stop others from reading them... >>> ...meanwhile, Mark Twain gets rewritten, and churches are told what's okay to preach, and singers are told what not to sing, and... ...in the schools it's especially ironic, imo, because we promote the proverb, "sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me!"
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Feb 18, 2011 11:23:08 GMT -5
this isn't necessarily political, but it seems a little too academic a topic for EE.
a family in Bedford, NH, has just gotten a second book pulled from the curriculum at the town high school because they deem it offensive. the story from the Nashua Telegraph.
IMHO, this family is clearly religious and more socially conservative than the average. that's all well and good, but if they feel that they want their children to learn what fits within their moral bounds, why aren't they home-schooling all of their children rather than just the one that was so horribly offended by the finance book they challenged first? or if they cannot home-school, there are plenty of religious schools that would likely fit their needs. I think they are totally welcome to exercise their freedom NOT to read these books, but they are seeking to limit the freedom of other children to learn from them. I fail to see how graphic descriptions of oral sex and masturbation are appropriate for anyone, let alone in a high school, in a country were the kids rank near the bottom in mathematics, science compared to other industrialized nations. Maybe the theory is, that in a country where more and more government school indoctrinees are functionally illiterate that porn would excite them and inspire them to read? It's sad now that you have to be "ultra conservative religious people" to object to pornographic content in high school. The same kid couldn't legally buy photos or see a show or movie featuring the same content. Maybe you find that offensive, too? The real reason this is a story is because the government run school folks are still pissed off that this family got the "Nickel and Dimed" propaganda banned. We wonder why our schools perform so poorly. If the staff (no pun intended) at this school would take all this time and energy and put it into making sure they turned out the best students possible instead of using it to push and then subsequently defend porn, we'd probably be ahead of the game. But then, if they turned out decent, well-educated citizens-- their government sponsors wouldn't remain in power long- and that's what porn in the classroom is really about. Deliberately morally compromising young people is a classic statist tactic for turning one generation against their parents, and their parent's values so they can replace the "old" values with new. And once compromised-- having sex at a young age, outside of the context of marriage and family, and believing and acting on the notion that "anything goes"-- how can they later stand up for what's right without feeling like hypocrites? By design, my friends. By design.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Feb 18, 2011 11:23:49 GMT -5
Can you provide an example. Do you mean an example like this: a high school trying to BAN use of the "word" "meep"? That happened near me. kids were using it in different ways or it was disruptive or something really, really ridiculous. I have no words. I have no words re: book banning either... ?!?!@&*@#! Wile E. Coyote and Road RunnerThe Road Runner vocalizes only with a signature sound, "Beep, Beep" (which sounds more like "Meep, Meep"), and an occasional tongue noise. The "Beep, Beep" was recorded by Paul Julian. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wile_E._Coyote_and_Road_Runner
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Feb 18, 2011 11:29:14 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2011 11:38:28 GMT -5
Wow... what i remember from Water for Elephants is the opening scence, and the touching, and a bit heart wrenching, nostalgia in an old man, forgot, who remembers the details of life well and fully lived...
I didn't remember that there is any sex stuff in it at all?...
I don't think Mark Twain should be re-written either... but the fact is that books out of copywrite are frequently re-written, adapted... you don't have to buy the new version... (although i do recommend reading Pride and Prejudice and Zombies once... at least a few chapters, its a hoot...)
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Post by marjar on Feb 18, 2011 11:46:48 GMT -5
When my kid was in elementary school, a parent embarked on a battle to have Shel Silverstein's books removed. He objected to the pen and ink drawing of a child's butt being stung by a bumble bee, among other things. When the school rejected his demands for removal of the books, he went to the school library and tore the offending pages from the books.
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Post by marjar on Feb 18, 2011 11:49:48 GMT -5
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Feb 18, 2011 12:34:02 GMT -5
I fail to see how graphic descriptions of oral sex and masturbation are appropriate for anyone, let alone in a high school, in a country were the kids rank near the bottom in mathematics, science compared to other industrialized nations. Maybe the theory is, that in a country where more and more government school indoctrinees are functionally illiterate that porn would excite them and inspire them to read? It's sad now that you have to be "ultra conservative religious people" to object to pornographic content in high school. The same kid couldn't legally buy photos or see a show or movie featuring the same content. Maybe you find that offensive, too? The real reason this is a story is because the government run school folks are still pissed off that this family got the "Nickel and Dimed" propaganda banned. We wonder why our schools perform so poorly. If the staff (no pun intended) at this school would take all this time and energy and put it into making sure they turned out the best students possible instead of using it to push and then subsequently defend porn, we'd probably be ahead of the game. But then, if they turned out decent, well-educated citizens-- their government sponsors wouldn't remain in power long- and that's what porn in the classroom is really about. Deliberately morally compromising young people is a classic statist tactic for turning one generation against their parents, and their parent's values so they can replace the "old" values with new. And once compromised-- having sex at a young age, outside of the context of marriage and family, and believing and acting on the notion that "anything goes"-- how can they later stand up for what's right without feeling like hypocrites? By design, my friends. By design. do you think kids aren't exposed to borderline porn everywhere else in their lives? the point of the book was that it was the memories of an old man as he reflected on his life. if the two pages (or whatever) that was devoted to sex was so horribly offensive, you could just skip over them. use the book as a tool to learn the intended concepts, and ignore the rest. it's done all the time with textbooks. and can you explain why you think 'nickel and dimed' is propaganda? I'm quite curious.
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Feb 18, 2011 12:43:12 GMT -5
you missed the part where this book was being used in an extra session, that takes place during off times. the kids picked the classes they wanted to take.
how is this exposing a child to something that he didn't choose?
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