NastyWoman
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Post by NastyWoman on Sept 25, 2013 14:42:31 GMT -5
Isn't this company afraid it will be sued for creating a hostile work environment? I would think that putting someone in a supervisory role over a person who has previously accused that supervisor of sexual harassment would constitute "a hostile work environment"? Especially since this is not a one-off accusation from just one person.
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lynnerself
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Post by lynnerself on Sept 25, 2013 14:45:12 GMT -5
"Unless he was threatening her job if she didn't exchange sexual favors I don't get how they paid out six figures for words"
www.eeoc.gov/eeoc/publications/fs-sex.cfm
Facts About Sexual Harassment
Sexual harassment is a form of sex discrimination that violates Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964. Title VII applies to employers with 15 or more employees, including state and local governments. It also applies to employment agencies and to labor organizations, as well as to the federal government.
Unwelcome sexual advances, requests for sexual favors, and other verbal or physical conduct of a sexual nature constitute sexual harassment when this conduct explicitly or implicitly affects an individual's employment, unreasonably interferes with an individual's work performance, or creates an intimidating, hostile, or offensive work environment.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Sept 25, 2013 14:46:41 GMT -5
Who knows? A lot of times in a case like this, it's because John is part of the "good old boy" network. Making good business decisions take a back seat to taking care of your buddy.
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Abby Normal
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Post by Abby Normal on Sept 25, 2013 14:46:45 GMT -5
agilemom, I knew Sara when all of this was happening, but I can't remember what she said his exact words would be. When I said "sexually graphic", I meant that he didn't just say "Oooh, I love sex". He talked about threesomes, oral sex and anal sex as if she was interested in discussing those things with him. I don't know if any of it was requests to engage with him. Sara isn't easily offended and talks about sex in conversations with her friends, but that doesn't mean she wants to talk about sex at work with her supervisor. Please don't misunderstand. I'm not judging. In fact, I'm trying to do just the opposite. You didn't give details originally, nor did we need them. I'm merely saying that there could be circumstances where if I were the business owner, I would want neither party working for my company. Does the guy sound like a douche?- yes. But I'm not going to drag out the proverbial guillotine and behead the guy. I know that is SOOO unlike YM. We do so like to be judge and jury here. Regardless of what happened between them, they do have a history and it is a bad idea to put them together again. Which was the original question.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2013 14:50:17 GMT -5
But I'm not going to drag out the proverbial guillotine and behead the guy. I know that is SOOO unlike YM. We do so like to be judge and jury here.
You're no fun! Just kidding.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2013 14:54:56 GMT -5
Isn't this company afraid it will be sued for creating a hostile work environment? I would think that putting someone in a supervisory role over a person who has previously accused that supervisor of sexual harassment would constitute "a hostile work environment"? Especially since this is not a one-off accusation from just one person. Apparently not. Maybe it's what someone else mentioned, that by having the two of them working together again, they're looking to fire one of them. I don't get it.
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Abby Normal
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Post by Abby Normal on Sept 25, 2013 15:08:58 GMT -5
It's sad because it's so often a he said/she said situation. It's easy to accuse, it's hard to prove.
How long has it been since the incident between Sara and John? Is it possible that those making the decision/HR don't know?
Even if they want to get rid of one of them- it seems like they are opening themselves up for a huge potential suit.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2013 16:40:52 GMT -5
Any employee that makes me pay out a 5 figure settlement is gone. That is my company policy also; have a thread about it not too long ago. Golden boy or not... He is gone!
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Cookies Galore
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I don't need no instructions to know how to rock
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Post by Cookies Galore on Sept 25, 2013 16:58:06 GMT -5
Severence as part of the settlement would be considered retaliation for filing a complaint. That ìs a legal no-no. You can't fire them, but can't you offer extra dollars if they leave? Why the hell should she leave? Hmm. Read more into the thread. Still, asking HER to leave doesn't do it for me.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2013 17:30:24 GMT -5
This was not the first (or the second) time that John was accused of sexual harrassment by one of his employees.
Your company is indeed showing very poor management skills. The first time, they moved him. Yet there was a second time, and per your post, more times after that. The second time, at worst, he should have been out on his butt.
I'm sure he would have been, in private industry. Pink I'm guessing it's different because he is probably a federal, union employee?
As far as him being in somewhat of a supervisory position over Sarah 10 years later, my guess is that the person who put him in his current position did not know about the history with Sarah. But maybe there are a whole bunch of abusive people like him that can't be fired, and they all need to be shuffled around?!
If they CHOOSE to keep this walking, breathing liability around, they deserve to have to pay his victims. It's ridiculously bad business practice, and I don't think it would fly anymore in private industry, only in the public sector.
I see it here sometimes with teachers. They can't be fired so they get shuffled around instead. Or in one case, where the teacher was a drunk, they changed his schedule so he only had morning classes. Until this year. Now unfortunately DS3 has him in the afternoon. He was a problem 10 years ago when DS1 had him, and he's still a problem today. He doesn't drink during the day anymore, but he's EXTREMELY aggressive, I'm guessing because he needs to finish teaching and go home and drink.
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formerroomate99
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Post by formerroomate99 on Sept 26, 2013 10:12:07 GMT -5
It sounds like either a case of someone not knowing the back story, the 'good old boy' network, or one or both of them are being pushed out of the company. Companies make idiotic business decisions all the time. After all, they're run by people, not robots, and we aren't exactly known for being rational all the time.
Another interpretation is that John truely did learn his lesson, that the rumors of him harassing workers in his past department are bunk, and that he and Sarah will get along just fine if they can both put the past behind them. 10 years is a long time. People do change and grow up.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2013 7:26:29 GMT -5
I understand what you're saying, looking at it from both sides of the coin. It still makes me sad though, because the accuser that's telling the absolute truth can end up in the line of fire because they spoke up. And this is really sad - and why many don't address it directly. I agree. I don't understand what Sara did wrong, other than stand up for herself and refuse to take this guy's crap. He was accused by other women in multiple locations. Doesn't sound to me like she was 'easily offended' unless lots of women are easily offended. and it's nobody else's business what easily offends someone. When you tell someone to stop (or HR tells someone to stop) and they keep doing it, there's a problem.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2013 7:27:42 GMT -5
It's sad because it's so often a he said/she said situation. It's easy to accuse, it's hard to prove. How long has it been since the incident between Sara and John? Is it possible that those making the decision/HR don't know? Even if they want to get rid of one of them- it seems like they are opening themselves up for a huge potential suit. except this was a he said/she said/she said/she said/she said....all different shes....
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Sept 27, 2013 7:46:09 GMT -5
Rukh, I've totally been there. I'm glad some women never are. I told DD to pick up her purse, turn in her keys, and walk out the door one time. I wish I had had someone tell me the same thing. When I told my mom, all she said was "welcome to the club."
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formerroomate99
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Post by formerroomate99 on Sept 27, 2013 8:52:04 GMT -5
And us younger women do owe a debt of gratitide the older generations who paved the way for us.
I got harassed at a teenager jobs. And when I was a grad student, there was an older professor that would say mildly off color things to the female grad students, nothing too terrible, but not something that would fly in the corporate world. But I haven't had even the slightest hint of sexual harassment in any of the corporate jobs I've had, and at this point, I'm old enough to put a guy like that in his place.
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Abby Normal
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Post by Abby Normal on Sept 27, 2013 10:46:40 GMT -5
Once again, I'm saying that under certain circumstances, it may be the right thing to do and as an employer I would like that option. You all seem to be taking the side that women are always on the receiving end of harassment, and never abuse the "system".
We had a incident at my workplace where a woman accused her lead of harassment. Because it is a male dominated, manufacturing facility, of course we took it at face value. After the investigation, it turns out that she was the aggressor, had made advances and extremely sexual comments to multiple men, and only claimed harassment after she "hooked" someone of some authority. We had to pay her a settlement even though we had some of her actions on security tape. She left two months later, and we found out that we were her third "victim" .
A friend had to fire an employee because a female employee felt harassed by a bumper sticker on his car. She continued to seek out his car, even after he parked it in a different lot and he couldn't remove it fast enough for her tastes.
All I'm saying is that not every case is clear cut. OP said John had other complaints- over 20 years. I'm not going to judge him or Sara based solely on the sketchy details presented here.
Sexual harassment, or harassment of any kind is awful, but there are those who use those laws inappropriately, to the detriment of those who truly need the protection.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2013 11:33:05 GMT -5
Once again, I'm saying that under certain circumstances, it may be the right thing to do and as an employer I would like that option. You all seem to be taking the side that women are always on the receiving end of harassment, and never abuse the "system". We had a incident at my workplace where a woman accused her lead of harassment. Because it is a male dominated, manufacturing facility, of course we took it at face value. After the investigation, it turns out that she was the aggressor, had made advances and extremely sexual comments to multiple men, and only claimed harassment after she "hooked" someone of some authority. We had to pay her a settlement even though we had some of her actions on security tape. She left two months later, and we found out that we were her third "victim" . A friend had to fire an employee because a female employee felt harassed by a bumper sticker on his car. She continued to seek out his car, even after he parked it in a different lot and he couldn't remove it fast enough for her tastes. All I'm saying is that not every case is clear cut. OP said John had other complaints- over 20 years. I'm not going to judge him or Sara based solely on the sketchy details presented here. Sexual harassment, or harassment of any kind is awful, but there are those who use those laws inappropriately, to the detriment of those who truly need the protection. except this was multiple women in different locations.....
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Abby Normal
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Post by Abby Normal on Sept 27, 2013 12:09:27 GMT -5
except this was multiple women in different locations..... So says a friend, of one of the victims, who is not a manager or HR personnel and has no direct involvement of the accusations. But we can't judge on the facts, because we don't have all the facts. OP said that is was an "unconfirmed rumor". Again, the guy sounds like a douche- and the company is stupid for putting them together.
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Sept 27, 2013 12:47:59 GMT -5
My assumption was along the lines of what milee outlined: that its a matter of needing John and Sara in the jobs they are placed in, and not necessarily having the immediate luxury of hiring/training someone else. The example with teachers is very apt. If someone is obligated to retain his/her grade/salary, few organizations can afford to pay that person to do another job while also paying for a replacement to do the original job.
I also do think that like it or not, there is a reason some of those protective procedures exist. No policy is perfect. I'm sure there could just as easily be cases where the absence of a "3 documented strikes" policy got someone unfairly fired.
We can hope that after 10 years, and what was surely some discipline for John, he's learned his lesson.
I do wonder, is it legal to "ask" a person to leave? Seems like the way a lot of laws are written, you can't force, but you can ask.
Seems like if I ever start my own company, I need to keep it under 14 employees? I would like to fire someone for wearing ugly shoes.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Sept 27, 2013 12:51:43 GMT -5
Someone wearing ugly shoes should receive a verbal then written warning! Shameful!
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