Food stamp fraud that I can't make myself care about

[Deleted]

In NY state they take into account daycare cost when determining if one is eligible for food stamps.  Nice right?  Well one of my school mates is a PhD candidate in the humanities where they pay about half of what the medical school pays PhDs.  However, her husband had a good job and she was basically just needing to pay for daycare.  But her husband lost his job and they applied for food stamps.  They included everything, including the daycare paperwork but the school daycare did not give you a invoice, just the attachment in the handbook of the cost.  She said she included that, with a copy of her last check to them (she says they approved that).  Then, a couple weeks later, they were declined because they made to much.  Well, the food stamp employee did not account for the daycare but when they tried to contact the employee and then the supervisor no one would return their calls. 
They finally (not sure how long after the initial decline) asked for a hearing from the over head group in Albany.  Wow, within days of her sending that she got a call from the employee.  At this point, it had been over a month from her application.  They had started going into debt to pay for things.  When they finally got food stamps they backdated the amount to her application but the money had to be used within that one month.  She did what we all say here and stockpiled but still had money left.  She then sold her food stamps to pay back the debt she went into while she was fighting this. 
I can't be upset here, yes, it is fraud but it was because of bad work ethic on the part of the employee and honestly, where else was she going to make back the money to pay the debt.  Am I just immoral or do others agree with me?
Oh, but on a positive note, her husband found another job two months later, and it had some benefits the old job did not.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

You should so post this  on YM.   I want to see heads explode.

I have way too much on my plate to care about stuff like this.   Also getting overly worked up isn't worth the resulting stroke.

It'd probably register somewhere in my brain that something sounds off about the story but I wouldn't give it anymore thought than that.

If I'm understanding the story it sounds more like the services office f-ed up rather than your friend.  If anybody were to be hung it should be them.

[Chocolate Lover]

Beats the crap out of selling food stamps for beer and cigarette money.

[Deleted]

I thought those were the only 2 choices! 

[Opti]

When they finally got food stamps they backdated the amount to her application but the money had to be used within that one month.

Do you know for sure that it is true she had to use all that money within one month?
Unless NY State is very different from other states that doesn't sound correct.
I understand why she may have done so, but here's what I found in an internet search.

www.ehow.com/info_8243423_do-left-over-previous-month.html

Although food stamps are meant to supplement regular purchases rather than take care of all of the family's food needs, some families may find that they don't use all their food stamps in a month. Food stamps roll over from month to month; as long as you use some of your food stamps each month you can continue to receive them.

If you use some of your SNAP benefits but do not use all of them, your benefits will always carry over into the next month. This is called rolling over your benefits. In general, your benefits will always roll over; however, if you do not use any of your benefits for 365 days, your state government must presume that you no longer need food assistance and permanently cancel your benefits.

Accumulation on EBT Card
Your EBT card always holds your current food stamp balance. At the beginning of the next month, your new benefits are deposited into your EBT account; thus, benefits accumulate over time. For example, if you receive $140 per month in food stamps and only spend $70, the next month $140 is deposited on top of the $70 still in your account, for a total of $210. If you do not use your entire balance in the next month, your food stamp benefits continue to accumulate.



Every state has their own rules. NJ will cut you off if you don't use any of your benefits in a three month period. I'd be surprised in NY state took away the strict $2000 in asset limits and then went the other way and required all benefits to be spent in the month received.

[Chocolate Lover]

It might be because of the special circumstances here? 

[Deleted]

If they backdated it, then the 3 month threshold could have been the end of the month she actually got the benefits.

[Opti]

Beer, I don't know. The threshold should start from the date the benefits are received.
I know states have leeway in having different rules so it is possible but not very likely IMO that benefits would have to be used up every month or forfeit them.

Perhaps Carl might know from his time working grocery stores in NY state.
NY doesn't seem like a state that would be spend it all or lose it. I attempted to find that info on their website, but just found application stuff.

[Deleted]

Honestly, I have no idea if it is true or not, all I know is what she told me.  Sorry guys. 

Sept 23, 2013 10:53:43 GMT -5 Opti said:

When they finally got food stamps they backdated the amount to her application but the money had to be used within that one month.

Do you know for sure that it is true she had to use all that money within one month?
Unless NY State is very different from other states that doesn't sound correct.
I understand why she may have done so, but here's what I found in an internet search.

www.ehow.com/info_8243423_do-left-over-previous-month.html

Although food stamps are meant to supplement regular purchases rather than take care of all of the family's food needs, some families may find that they don't use all their food stamps in a month. Food stamps roll over from month to month; as long as you use some of your food stamps each month you can continue to receive them.

If you use some of your SNAP benefits but do not use all of them, your benefits will always carry over into the next month. This is called rolling over your benefits. In general, your benefits will always roll over; however, if you do not use any of your benefits for 365 days, your state government must presume that you no longer need food assistance and permanently cancel your benefits.

Accumulation on EBT Card
Your EBT card always holds your current food stamp balance. At the beginning of the next month, your new benefits are deposited into your EBT account; thus, benefits accumulate over time. For example, if you receive $140 per month in food stamps and only spend $70, the next month $140 is deposited on top of the $70 still in your account, for a total of $210. If you do not use your entire balance in the next month, your food stamp benefits continue to accumulate.



Every state has their own rules. NJ will cut you off if you don't use any of your benefits in a three month period. I'd be surprised in NY state took away the strict $2000 in asset limits and then went the other way and required all benefits to be spent in the month received.

[Ombud]

Well I do care about fraud as I am paying for it thru my taxes. Your friend should have rolled over the excess. Actually she should have dipped into her emergency fund to cover any shortage she had while waiting for her free food stamp program to begin. After all she is entitled to a few hundred just not more as it is WELFARE PD BY TAXPAYERS

[constanz22]

I would love for some people to go spend one day in the public assistance office and then complain that a worker doesn't return their calls in a timely manner.  There are pretty strict requirements to process a FS app.  If she didn't turn in what they felt to be appropriate documentation (no actual bill for day care) then they had every right at that level to deny her assistance.  ALL FS apps are allowed 30 days to process.  And, if you don't turn all required documents in on time, they close out the app and you have to start all over again. There are very few cases that receive expedited food stamps.  And I don't think she's justified in any circumstance to sell her food stamps.

[Deleted]

Given that she asked if the documents she had would work, and that they said it would, and she was trying to fix the problem they created yet could not get ANY response, yet once the over site group was contacted the employee was suddenly able to return the many calls, I blame the employee more than my friend.  If their job had been done, none of it would have happen.   
Constanaz, what do you think a reasonable time to respond?  One week, two?  These people are trying to have access to food, deciding not to respond or give correct information is wrong IMO.  Granted, two wrongs don't make a right but I can't, personally, blame the person who is a weak position doing something wrong to survive.  
That is just me, others do see it differently.  I wonder how many have been in that weak position, though.

Sept 23, 2013 15:00:30 GMT -5 constanz22 said:

I would love for some people to go spend one day in the public assistance office and then complain that a worker doesn't return their calls in a timely manner.  There are pretty strict requirements to process a FS app.  If she didn't turn in what they felt to be appropriate documentation (no actual bill for day care) then they had every right at that level to deny her assistance.  ALL FS apps are allowed 30 days to process.  And, if you don't turn all required documents in on time, they close out the app and you have to start all over again. There are very few cases that receive expedited food stamps.  And I don't think she's justified in any circumstance to sell her food stamps.

[Opti]

Gin, my guess is the person doing the intake thought it might work, i.e. the daycare documentation and it didn't. What few people realize, except for those who have applied, is all these programs aren't instanteous. Things do go wrong and things take time. Its possible that the person doing the intake didn't call your schoolmate back because that person isn't actually responsible for processing the application. I think going to the oversight board is probably the preferred process.

Given all that, it likely took two months or more from start to finish. I hope she didn't
go too much into debt because unless you get EITC there's no using "food stamps" for anything else unless you do some sort of fraud. While it wouldn't cover everything, I wonder if she checked out food pantries while they were waiting. The only way I've heard you can sell food stamps now is to make a deal with a crooked retailer who will charge the government for things that were not bought. I understand why she chose to do what she did, but hopefully if she gets in a similar situation she will apply as soon as reasonable and use food pantries until she is approved.

[Ombud]

Sept 23, 2013 16:41:06 GMT -5 Opti said:

there's no using "food stamps" for anything else unless you do some sort of fraud .... checked out food pantries while they were waiting.

Great point! Food pantries as the bridge until the food stamps come in. IMHO if there's a bill that cannot wait & you don't have the EF to cover it, you're SOL anyway

[Deleted]

Sorry, I don't know how she sold her food stamps, they come on a card so I assume not Craigslist.  I don't think she asked friends, because she did not ask me, though it might have been.  She also has family in the area, maybe she bought food for them and they gave her money.  All I know is that she said she sold the excess to pay the debt partly because it was more than three times her normal monthly budget, she did not go into detail.  

Sept 23, 2013 17:18:00 GMT -5 @wrongsideof30 said:

I'm curious how she sold her food stamps. I've heard of people doing it. I'm assuming they're not putting out ads on Craigslist. Did she just ask her friends or something? I watched a short video on food stamps the other day and the girl in the video said they usually sell for 60% of their value. Is that how it worked out for your friend?

[Deleted]

I do know that she said the employee she spoke to was the same throughout the entire process, and that she attempted to call that specific employee's supervisor.  I personally would have written the oversight board after 48-72 hours but she is nicer than me and said she understood they were busy.  Sorry but my child's need to food trumps being nice and understanding.  
ETA:  I know that she sold them and it was fraud, I just can't personally get myself to care.  

Sept 23, 2013 16:41:06 GMT -5 Opti said:

Gin, my guess is the person doing the intake thought it might work, i.e. the daycare documentation and it didn't. What few people realize, except for those who have applied, is all these programs aren't instanteous. Things do go wrong and things take time. Its possible that the person doing the intake didn't call your schoolmate back because that person isn't actually responsible for processing the application. I think going to the oversight board is probably the preferred process.

Given all that, it likely took two months or more from start to finish. I hope she didn't
go too much into debt because unless you get EITC there's no using "food stamps" for anything else unless you do some sort of fraud. While it wouldn't cover everything, I wonder if she checked out food pantries while they were waiting. The only way I've heard you can sell food stamps now is to make a deal with a crooked retailer who will charge the government for things that were not bought. I understand why she chose to do what she did, but hopefully if she gets in a similar situation she will apply as soon as reasonable and use food pantries until she is approved.

[Ombud]

Nicer than you?!?

She sold either the food stamps or the food for a profit at OUR (taxpayers) expense! When we allocate food stamps to someone it is to cover their food needs not to resolve other debts.

She's stealing. And you condone this! She should be forced to do community service until the value for ALL the food is worked off ~~ that she needed and that she didn't

[Deleted]

Yes, I condone it.  When someone is put in a bad spot, by those who are suppose to be helping,and they do something wrong in response, with no physical harm, sorry I can't find it in myself to get all het up about it.  Maybe if the employee had done her job in the first place,my friend would have gotten the help she needed as she needed it, not months later.  For something that is suppose to be a stop-gap, it should not take that long to implement.  And honestly, how does giving more food stamps make up for the month(s) that the person is paying cash for their food when they are eligible.  
And yes, she is a very nice person and I am a bitch.  She did what was right for her family.

Sept 23, 2013 18:23:10 GMT -5 Ombud said:

Nicer than you?!?!

She sold either the food stamps or the food for a profit at OUR (taxpayers) expense! When we allocate food stamps to someone it is to cover their food needs not to resolve other debts.

She's stealing. And you condone this! She should be forced to do community service until the value for ALL the food is worked off ~~ that she needed and that she didn't

[Ombud]

So maybe we should eliminate food stamps and go to an excess product distribution system? The non-profits would get the food & give it out a bag at a time?? Would this save us $$$ (by 'us' I mean taxpayers)

[Deleted]

Sept 23, 2013 19:24:14 GMT -5 Ombud said:

So maybe we should eliminate food stamps and go to an excess product distribution system? The non-profits would get the food & give it out a bag at a time?? Would this save us $$$ (by 'us' I mean taxpayers)

They tried that, it was called government cheese.  They moved to food stamps, wonder why?

[thyme4change]

I don't find this totally appalling either - but I am curious as to how much her benefits could possibly be.  A trip to Costco and one to the grocery store - I could pound out a grand, if I had to.  If need be, I would ask my mother or a friend to store additional meat for me.  I'd stock up on beans and peanut butter, pasta and other things that won't perish.  

[mrsdutt]

The video that WROGSIDE posted was very interesting.  There's information that we seldom think about in it.  The answer to changing back to distribution centers is in there.

[Deleted]

Not sure but we are in a cheap area, buffalo where I spend $110 every two weeks using coupons and sales.  The only reason I found out about it was I was asking if she wanted to go in on the grad student chicken deal (there is a butcher shop that sells 40lbs of boneless skinless chicken breasts for 1.40 per pound and we rotate who goes and gets it) and she told me no because they had already stocked up with the card.  Then she told me about running out of non-perishables she could store and selling the rest before they expired.
I don't know if I could spend $1000 here without being excessive, even if with stockpiling from ground zero, yet I could in Ca.

Sept 23, 2013 19:55:52 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

I don't find this totally appalling either - but I am curious as to how much her benefits could possibly be.  A trip to Costco and one to the grocery store - I could pound out a grand, if I had to.  If need be, I would ask my mother or a friend to store additional meat for me.  I'd stock up on beans and peanut butter, pasta and other things that won't perish.  

[Ombud]

Not sure about other parts of the country, we spend about $50-75 a week in SF Bay Area bc we focus on non-processed items on sale

[Deleted]

The whole system runs that way.  Understaffed, delays in approvals & hearings.  All the while the "system" is thinking about whether these people get benefits, they are sinking fast.

So, by your logic, everyone can rip off the system since they all get screwed around on approvals and such. 

I also don't really care in that case, but the point is that where is the line drawn then?

[Ombud]

So, gin, are you saying that the food stamp benefit level is too high (I'll agree) meanwhile that the benefit should be easier for anyone to get even if their assets may be too high (or unverifiable which usually means too high meaning they have other assets they can tap before tapping me) just so those few in dire straits get them faster? Didn't you say they were only on unemployment for 2 months? So obviously they mismanaged income before that or they wouldn't have been so bad off that a few trips to the local food bank couldn't tide them over. So what if she had to pay for her food? We all pay for our food. Some of us even paid for hers!!

Yeah I hate it when people defraud the safety net system that WE pay for

where else was she going to make back the money to pay back the debt

(1) emergency savings
(2) unemployment checks
(3) future employment

[murphath]

You know that old saying about "walking a mile in someone's shoes"?  Although a little off topic, a similar thing happened to our foster son many years ago.  Because of his age when we got him (15) and the incredible time/expense to adopt, we decided to go with having him declared "independent".  Yes, that meant no money for his support but we didn't care about that.  His mother was long gone, hid dad in jail--you know the drill.  In any event, his being an emancipated minor made him eligible for general assistance.  So, off we went to the county social service office to get the paperwork.  After completed, another trip to get an appointment (not done over the phone) to submit paperwork and have the initial interview.  Then another appointment for him to have another interview (without us) and still another to watch a video of some kind.  This took about 2 months because he was in school and we had to schedule in later afternoon and many of those times were already booked.  He receives his first check.  In the envelope is a form he was required to fill out and return within 3/4 days.  All was going well until one month he received the check without the form.  Oh goodness...he tried calling.  No answer.  They only answer the phone before noon--not in the afternoon.  Again, he's in school and cell phones did not exist in the early 80's.  So I called.  But I wasn't him so they wouldn't help me.  I asked if we could come done together that afternoon and pick up the form.  NO, it had to be mailed.  Round and round we went.  By this time the 3/4 day window had passed.  I worked for a non-profit and knew my boss had a collegial relationship with the head of this particular department.  She called her, explained the situation, etc.  I then spoke with her outlining what had happened.  She took care of most everything--he didn't have to go through the whole 2 month process again--but he did have to go and watch that stupid video again before they would re-start his payments.  So, we had to pull him from school one morning for him to do that. 
As I said to the agency head at the time, I'm an adult and can deal with these types of things with a level head.  How do they expect a 15 year boy who is in school all day, without a car, without any bus service to get all this done? Especially when it was their fault he did not receive the form. 

In the end it was worth the effort.  He received @ $300 month.  We taught him how to manage his money, open a checking account, balance it, etc.  He kept $100 month and gave us the $200.  He didn't know it at the time, but we opened a college account with the $200.   When he graduated, he was happy to see he had some $ for college.  He's 43 now and a journeyman electrician.  More importantly, he's grown into a wonderful man.

[Deleted]

I think you are either misunderstanding or deliberately doing so.  I can't believe anyone would consider the benefit level is too high.  She did verify the information in a format they agreed to, then when denied attempted to contact them to determine what else she could send.  Her husband found a job about 5 months after he was laid off.  So it was laid off, food stamp snafu, fix snafu (combined over two months of food stamps because of that), two months more of unemployment, then reemployment and no more food stamps.
And there are not very few in dire straits, more and more working poor are in dire straits.  I don't think is unreasonable to expect that Social service employees do their job so that months of food stamp money won't get piled up before the person gets it or that an oversite group has to get involved before the job is done properly. 
Also, I am not even sure if she could use a food bank here, to be honest.  It is an assumption that should could and did not.  I am assuming she did her best to get help.  I don't know if that included a food bank.  I assume someone who needed food stamps would have checked out a food bank, but maybe I am wrong.
Perhaps if the local office causes there to be a long wait (past the normal time which was stated above to be 30 days) the food stamp money should be in cash.  The aid is suppose to be there in that case, and she should have been able to use it when she was not able to.

Sept 23, 2013 23:17:45 GMT -5 Ombud said:

So, gin, are you saying that the food stamp benefit level is too high (I'll agree) meanwhile that the benefit should be easier for anyone to get even if their assets may be too high (or unverifiable which usually means too high meaning they have other assets they can tap before tapping me) just so those few in dire straits get them faster? Didn't you say they were only on unemployment for 2 months? So obviously they mismanaged income before that or they wouldn't have been so bad off that a few trips to the local food bank couldn't tide them over. So what if she had to pay for her food? We all pay for our food. Some of us even paid for hers!!

Yeah I hate it when people defraud the safety net system that WE pay for

where else was she going to make back the money to pay back the debt

(1) emergency savings
(2) unemployment checks
(3) future employment

[Opti]

The thing about all these programs is you rarely find out the rules and the gotchas until you apply. Plus each state is going to be different and if your individual circumstance/documentation is not standard there might be issues. The laws are passed and crafted for the most part by people who have no idea what it is like to be in this position. It occurred to me the reason they may stack benefits on the card from when you first applied is both to replenish a stockpile you may have decimated while waiting for benefits and being consistent with everyone who applies. I would have thought the clock would start running the month you were approved, but likely by law is was decided it would be based on when you applied.

Odds are had she only received one months of benefits when she got the card she would have paid the credit card off after her husband got a job. This unusual situation put her the position to do otherwise. And if she only had to spend say at least a month's worth of that benefit by month end its possible a misunderstanding drove her to do something stupid.


I think its good Gin started this thread because it educates people on how the system worked for someone so hopefully the readers of this thread won't make the mistake of thinking food stamps and programs like heating assistance are going to happen within a week. To be aware that if it happens in a month to be grateful and not be surprised if it takes phones calls and going up the food chain to get it done in 3 months or so.

[Poptart]

How much debt can a person get into in the span of a few months?