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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2013 15:17:52 GMT -5
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kilroy
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Post by kilroy on Sept 21, 2013 15:26:45 GMT -5
Are those the only choices? What about, will a company be allowed to decide how it wants to present itself to the public, or will it be forced to capitulate to political correctness?
Personally I wish the company would die because I'm sick of seeing their logos on every other person on the street. But I believe a company should have a right to set its own policies and employees should have to adhere to them if they want to work there. Did this woman know about the dress code when she applied?
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Sept 21, 2013 16:17:56 GMT -5
How could they even think this case would win? That's textbook discrimination of religion.
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sesfw
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Post by sesfw on Sept 21, 2013 16:26:45 GMT -5
Last time I was at the local mall I noticed the store turned the volume of their 'music' down several notches. I was hardly aware the store was even there. Of course I'm several generations older than their target customers. Maybe my hearing is going bad.
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Otto the Orange
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Post by Otto the Orange on Sept 21, 2013 17:34:55 GMT -5
Are those the only choices? What about, will a company be allowed to decide how it wants to present itself to the public, or will it be forced to capitulate to political correctness? Personally I wish the company would die because I'm sick of seeing their logos on every other person on the street. But I believe a company should have a right to set its own policies and employees should have to adhere to them if they want to work there. Did this woman know about the dress code when she applied? But is it just being forced to capitulate to "political correctness" or being forced to uphold "religious tolerance, as long as the religion tolerance doesn't cause undue hardship" as required by law? The case was decided in court and found to be in violation of the civil rights act. The person was a stock clerk that worked in the back room and had minimal contact with the customer. She was only wearing a head scarf (god forbid!). I wonder what the reaction would be if it was a Jewish person wearing a Yamaka?
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resolution
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Post by resolution on Sept 21, 2013 17:40:35 GMT -5
I think they are more hurt by their focus on skinny and popular kids. The head scarf thing is bad, but I don't think that as many kids are focused on religious issues as the general meanness of excluding so many people that don't fit their narrow definition of cool. They are also losing out on much of their potential customer base by only carrying the smaller sizes.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2013 18:34:13 GMT -5
Are those the only choices? What about, will a company be allowed to decide how it wants to present itself to the public, or will it be forced to capitulate to political correctness? Personally I wish the company would die because I'm sick of seeing their logos on every other person on the street. But I believe a company should have a right to set its own policies and employees should have to adhere to them if they want to work there. Did this woman know about the dress code when she applied? They can present their brand however they like in their advertising. But if they want to operate in the US, they need to follow federal and state law for how they run the business.
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Sept 21, 2013 19:08:48 GMT -5
I think they are more hurt by their focus on skinny and popular kids. The head scarf thing is bad, but I don't think that as many kids are focused on religious issues as the general meanness of excluding so many people that don't fit their narrow definition of cool. They are also losing out on much of their potential customer base by only carrying the smaller sizes. I had a decent post that got eaten....I'll see what I can reconstruct. back in HS (mid-90s) there was this store in the mall called 5-7-9, that carried clothes under junior size 9. they took up a mall spot about the same size as what Yankee Candle, Franklin Covey, or the Body Shop might take up today. they had minimal marketing, and they also didn't actively offend anyone who didn't fit into the narrow range of sizes they offered. as far as I know, nobody had a problem with 5-7-9 as a business. contrast that with A&F, a store that takes up a lot more space than the ones I've mentioned.....and has previously mass-marketed to all sizes over the years. when a company makes a pointed effort to change their marketing strategy, it's not generally a good idea to blatantly offend prior customers. compound that with a CEO that presents an image that doesn't at all mesh with the image of the company's ideal customer, to put it mildly, and I'm not at all surprised that A&F is in the position they are in. perhaps they ought to look at why they succeeded in the 90s vs why they are floundering now. putting their CEO out on his ear is a good start.
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sapphire12
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Post by sapphire12 on Sept 21, 2013 20:24:41 GMT -5
chiver -- I used to shop at 5-7-9.
when a company makes a pointed effort to change their marketing strategy, it's not generally a good idea to blatantly offend prior customers. This is the key. Sell to whomever you want. It's not necessary to attack anyone. Sheesh, this is basic marketing.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Sept 21, 2013 20:29:09 GMT -5
What do Mr. Jeffries' strict branding policies have to do with whites, Anglo-Saxons, or protestantism? Or did you even know what the acronym meant?
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Sept 21, 2013 20:41:08 GMT -5
A&F carries larger sizes for males because they are "athletes" and want the popular jocks to shop there. Apparently female athletes are all tiny.
And Birgil, they would not let a Muslim girl,wear her headscarf at work because it didn't fit their image. Which is apparently the "all American kid" who is stereotypically WASP, not Muslim.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Sept 21, 2013 21:04:36 GMT -5
Do you honestly think my 14 year old (skinny, pretty girl-their target audience) is offended that they cater to others like her? I think you give teenagers way too much credit.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2013 21:08:21 GMT -5
Virgil, yes I know what the acronym means. I am one in the strictest interpretation (old school definition). In this century it broadened to mean non minority whites. The "reinvented" Abercrombie target audience is non minority white upper mid to upper class youth.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Sept 21, 2013 21:12:48 GMT -5
Virgil, yes I know what the acronym means. I am one in the strictest interpretation (old school definition). In this century it broadened to mean non minority whites. The "reinvented" Abercrombie target audience is non minority white upper mid to upper class youth.And teenagers are self-centered and shallow.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Sept 21, 2013 21:22:56 GMT -5
Virgil, yes I know what the acronym means. I am one in the strictest interpretation (old school definition). In this century it broadened to mean non minority whites. The "reinvented" Abercrombie target audience is non minority white upper mid to upper class youth.The upper-middle to upper-class youth I get. But Mr. Jeffries is a classist, not a racist (insofar as I can tell). And he does it as a marketing tactic. Have the stores done anything specifically to alienate races other than whites? Firing an employee for wearing a hijab doesn't qualify, since white English-speakers are by no means the only race or culture that dislike hijabs (or mandatory religious headwear in general). Nor do all white English-speakers oppose hijabs, for that matter. In Canada, white English-speakers are the demographic most likely to support protection of religious headwear.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Sept 21, 2013 21:41:49 GMT -5
Gonzalez, et al. v. Abercrombie & Fitch Stores, Inc., et al. alleged that Abercrombie "violated Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 by maintaining recruiting and hiring practices that excluded minorities and women and adopting a restrictive marketing image, and other policies, which limited minority and female employment." The female and Latino, African-American, and Asian American plaintiffs charged that they were either not hired despite strong qualifications or if hired "they were steered not to sales positions out front, but to low-visibility, back-of-the-store jobs, stocking and cleaning up." This case settled for $50M. www.eeoc.gov/eeoc/newsroom/release/11-18-04.cfm
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Sept 21, 2013 22:29:23 GMT -5
Gonzalez, et al. v. Abercrombie & Fitch Stores, Inc., et al. alleged that Abercrombie "violated Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 by maintaining recruiting and hiring practices that excluded minorities and women and adopting a restrictive marketing image, and other policies, which limited minority and female employment." The female and Latino, African-American, and Asian American plaintiffs charged that they were either not hired despite strong qualifications or if hired "they were steered not to sales positions out front, but to low-visibility, back-of-the-store jobs, stocking and cleaning up." This case settled for $50M. www.eeoc.gov/eeoc/newsroom/release/11-18-04.cfmAh. Do you recall that only a few months ago when I asked whether posters were as upset about Mr. Jeffries' comments on fat people as they were about Mr. Dan Cathy's defense of traditional marriage, you defended Jeffries' comments: "Marketing one's brand toward a certain demographic is very different from making cash donations to lobbyists to oppose the granting of civil rights to certain demographics." ...oddly omitting the above factoid. In fact, over the 4 pages where you firmly argued that Mr. Cathy's donations to the Pennsylvania Family Institute, the Family Research Council, and the Georgia Family Council constituted a boycottable offense while Mr. Jeffries' "marketing [his] brand toward a certain demographic" was objectionable but not boycottable in your opinion, the fact that Jeffries' "certain demographic" excluded various races and genders never once came up. Hence you'll excuse my being surprised to discover that Jeffries' other prejudices were the 800 pound hidden gorilla in the previous thread on the subject, and further excuse my surprise at the gorilla being revealed by the same individual who argued "his comments were not designed to persuade anyone to do anything - he was just explaining his beliefs. He has the right to believe whatever he wants, and I wouldn't boycott a company on this basis (few would)."
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Sept 22, 2013 7:32:05 GMT -5
From A&F to gays in 16 posts. Nice job, Virgil!
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Sept 22, 2013 7:42:39 GMT -5
From A&F to gays in 16 posts. Nice job, Virgil! You made the same criticism in the previous thread and I humoured you then. And now even referencing that debate to provide context is "from A&F to gays", which apparently doesn't even require "gays" to be mentioned in either thread. Buzz off and let us have our discussion.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2013 7:52:18 GMT -5
Have the stores done anything specifically to alienate races other than whites? Look up surveys on customer service and they're down there with the cable companies. I think there have even been discussions on A&F here. If you come into the store with a wallet full of credit cards and a willingness to buy but you don't fit their brand (and I wouldn't because, to start with, I'm 60), they'll ignore you. I've been snubbed in better stores than A&F, and welcomed in some very high-end stores (even with DS in tow when he was little) that had better attitudes towards their customers. If you don't want my business, why should I force it on you?
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Sept 22, 2013 7:58:36 GMT -5
Have the stores done anything specifically to alienate races other than whites? Look up surveys on customer service and they're down there with the cable companies. I think there have even been discussions on A&F here. If you come into the store with a wallet full of credit cards and a willingness to buy but you don't fit their brand (and I wouldn't because, to start with, I'm 60), they'll ignore you. I've been snubbed in better stores than A&F, and welcomed in some very high-end stores (even with DS in tow when he was little) that had better attitudes towards their customers. If you don't want my business, why should I force it on you? Eh. If they don't want a grandmother buying clothes for her granddaughter, there might be one or two other places willing to take your money.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Sept 22, 2013 8:15:16 GMT -5
Have the stores done anything specifically to alienate races other than whites? Look up surveys on customer service and they're down there with the cable companies. I think there have even been discussions on A&F here. If you come into the store with a wallet full of credit cards and a willingness to buy but you don't fit their brand (and I wouldn't because, to start with, I'm 60), they'll ignore you. I've been snubbed in better stores than A&F, and welcomed in some very high-end stores (even with DS in tow when he was little) that had better attitudes towards their customers. If you don't want my business, why should I force it on you? I haven't seen the surveys but I'm wondering if the complaints are from those not in their target market. It won't exactly hurt the brand if complaints are from people who wouldn't wear their clothes anyway. It doesn't matter if I agree with them or not, their target market are the thin, pretty, popular upper middle class kids...tank tend to be the most self-centered of the teenagers. By excluding people that aren't in their league (in the teenagers mind) it makes the product even all that better for them. Look, I can wear it because I'm thin and pretty and you can't. This marketing wouldn't work on adults (by then, hopefully the shallowness is outgrown!) but it does on teenagers.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Sept 22, 2013 8:18:28 GMT -5
Do you honestly think my 14 year old (skinny, pretty girl-their target audience) is offended that they cater to others like her? I think you give teenagers way too much credit. my 17 yo has abondonned this brand as has her friends. they no long find it to be cool, with fashion - one day you're in, and the next, you're out. I agree...but did it have anything to do wih the company snubbing bigger teenagers or was it just a fad that faded? I can think if a lot if stores hat were "in" when I was a teenager that went out of business long ago....and they didn't snub certain teenagers or if they did there was no Internet to bring it to everyone's attention. I still say that most teenagers do not care enough to snub something they like or they consider to be "in" because if corporate policy.
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kilroy
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Post by kilroy on Sept 22, 2013 8:31:45 GMT -5
If A&F was so exclusive, how come I see their logos on everyone & their uncle I see on the street (and trust me, they're not all thin & WASPy)? The faster this fad goes, the better.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Sept 22, 2013 9:24:05 GMT -5
I agree...but did it have anything to do wih the company snubbing bigger teenagers or was it just a fad that faded? I can think if a lot if stores hat were "in" when I was a teenager that went out of business long ago....and they didn't snub certain teenagers or if they did there was no Internet to bring it to everyone's attention. I still say that most teenagers do not care enough to snub something they like or they consider to be "in" because if corporate policy. It's had a lot to do with the bigger sizes. DD has a friend who is rather heavy and of course - even the slim and pretty have some friends that are and I beleive they have taken it as a defence of their friends to not support this brand. I'll ask her for more details when she wakes ups. I do think they were kind of oblivious to this when their friends weren't able to shop there and purchase things for <mystery reasons> but when it was put out in the media that the store deliberately omitted larger sizes for females but not for males, there was a reaction and I remember them talking about it and being outraged and protective of their larger friends. Whether the brand was already twilighting and that was the final straw for them I don't know and will quiz DD about the specifics. DD is a senior in the popular crowd, so they are the trend setters of the school. I just talked to my 14 year old about this. The closest store is 30 minutes away so Hollister is much more popular (I think they have the same owner). But kids do wear it but she said "not the poor or fat kids". I said "how do you feel knowing that a brand excludes your heavier friends"...she said "I don't have heavy friends". I asked her how she would feel if she DID have heavy friends and she said "I would ask them to come running with me...if they don't want to lose the weight that is their fault they can't wear the clothes". Also, we are not in the fashion forward area of the country. Trends start here a few years later and die here a few years later. Lets just say that the 80's big hair lasted way longer than it should have around here:-p My dd is also one of the pretty, popular girls (though only a freshman so I can't say she is a trendsetter). I honestly can't see her or any of her friends caring about the corporate policies when they are choosing clothes. Maybe when they mature in a few years but not now.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Sept 22, 2013 9:25:36 GMT -5
If A&F was so exclusive, how come I see their logos on everyone & their uncle I see on the street (and trust me, they're not all thin & WASPy)? The faster this fad goes, the better. Much to the dismay of A&F they can't stop they WASPs from taking their clothes to the Salvation Army when they are done...or any kind if consignment shop. Or the counterfeits that are sold in the streets of the big cities.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Sept 22, 2013 9:29:52 GMT -5
My daughter just said she doesn't think excluding fat people is right...but she understands why they would do it and she wouldn't stop wearing the clothes because if that. She came back after she had time to think about her quick answer.
But she still says that wouldn't stop her from wearing the clothes because the clothes look good in people built like her and wouldn't look good in someone big. She also said she would encourage a heavier friend to lose weight.
I'm actually happy that she thought about it a little more and doesn't think it is right.
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resolution
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Post by resolution on Sept 22, 2013 10:17:55 GMT -5
It may make a difference when she is a little older if she starts hanging out with someone heavy and wants to shop with them. Not in boycotting the store due to the policy, but simply where they could both shop together and try things on.
In my 20s, I used to shop at a chain store called Petite Sophisticate, which carried only petite clothes. But when I shopped with taller friends we would skip that store and browse at places where we could both find things to try on, because I knew it would be no fun for my friend to stand around while I tried on a bunch of stuff that she couldn't.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Sept 22, 2013 13:14:21 GMT -5
It's probably too late for A&F, and Muslims would see right thru it now, but A&F could have/should have designed and sold head scarves for Muslim women. Muslims have money too.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Sept 23, 2013 9:40:25 GMT -5
They have their market niche and as girls age out of it, others will follow. DD and her friends once shopped there, now they wouldn't be caught dead wearing their stuff. Kind of reminds me of that young girl store, Justice, is it? You grow up and stop wearing that stuff.
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