Degrees of gray

[Formerly SK]

The kids are really into listening to audiobooks before going to bed at night.  For the past few rounds of borrowing from the library, I just renewed the books over and over for maybe 2-3 months and then finally returned them.  This most recent round, it occurred to me I could burn a copy so the kids could have them forever instead of constantly renewing them from the library.

So yesterday I burned "The Best Christmas Pageant Ever" and "Bridge to Terabithia."  I thought I was pretty brilliant.

Course I'm also slow, because this morning it occurred to me that perhaps this is considered stealing?  Granted, the two books I burned are 30+ years old and probably worth 25 cents on the open market, but basically I did just make my own copy of something from the library.  So what do you think?  Is this wrong similar to jaywalking being wrong (ie everyone does it), or is this wrong on a more serious level?

[Deleted]

I say wrong on a more serious level. Jaywalking seems to be a victimless (unless you get hit by a car) crime. Copying a book or music illegally is effectively taking someone's work without paying them. I think it's more gray because its a library book and not something you pay directly for, but not understanding how the library is funded (do they look at # of loans, average length of loans, etc), I don't know if you doing this has an impact on the bottom line.

I wouldn't do it, but I would have a much stronger opinion if you bought something, copied it and with gave it to other people or returned it.

[milee]

Probably not something I'd do because it would feel like stealing and also we try to be very careful to model behavior for our kids.  I'd be mortified if they learned to steal from me.  JMHO.

[kittensaver]

Well there's certainly a reason why one "borrows" from the library rather than "buying" from it! If you have enough money (and personal smarts) to purchase (and successfully use) electronic equipment that copies audio, don't you have enough money to outright buy the book/audio book? That IS, after all, the way the author makes a living . . .

[Formerly SK]

Aug 19, 2013 11:53:32 GMT -5 milee said:

Probably not something I'd do because it would feel like stealing and also we try to be very careful to model behavior for our kids.  I'd be mortified if they learned to steal from me.  JMHO.

This was my thought too, but I didn't know if I was being too anal about it.  I used to make recordings of songs played on the radio and somehow don't think of that as stealing (maybe because the copy was so poor in quality).  But I didn't know if the analogy was applicable to this case. 

I think I'll just continue to renew the books from the library.  I'd rather err on the conservative side of a morality question.

[justme]

I check out music CDs from the library and rip them to my computer. It's never bothered me since me and my friends rip/copy a CD we have to give to a friend instead of all of us buying the same CD.  But we also go to a lot of shows and the musicians barely make money of CDs.

[Rocky Mtn Saver]

Aug 19, 2013 12:08:47 GMT -5 justme said:

I check out music CDs from the library and rip them to my computer. It's never bothered me since me and my friends rip/copy a CD we have to give to a friend instead of all of us buying the same CD.  But we also go to a lot of shows and the musicians barely make money of CDs.

Perhaps your boss should just start deciding on his own which of the 8 hours in your working day he should have to pay you for.  I'm sure you're not earning all the minutes in your day.  If he were to stop paying you for some of those minutes, it sounds like you wouldn't care at all.  I mean, they're piddly little things, right?  So if it's more convenient for him and his fellow bosses, he should definitely get to decide that on his own. 

[justme]

Aug 19, 2013 12:30:21 GMT -5 Rocky Mtn Saver said:

Aug 19, 2013 12:08:47 GMT -5 justme said:

I check out music CDs from the library and rip them to my computer. It's never bothered me since me and my friends rip/copy a CD we have to give to a friend instead of all of us buying the same CD.  But we also go to a lot of shows and the musicians barely make money of CDs.

Perhaps your boss should just start deciding on his own which of the 8 hours in your working day he should have to pay you for.  I'm sure you're not earning all the minutes in your day.  If he were to stop paying you for some of those minutes, it sounds like you wouldn't care at all.  I mean, they're piddly little things, right?  So if it's more convenient for him and his fellow bosses, he should definitely get to decide that on his own. 

Well, if you extrapolate it out the few cents the artists get from the album, by the thousands/millions of albums they sell and factor in that of the money they earn album sales is a small percentage next to tours and merchandise we're probably talking about maybe 5 mins of my time a year.  

I don't really buy much music anymore, and don't really rip the CDs much anymore, I just stream the music online for free. So the alternative isn't me purchasing the CD anyways. Plus a lot of the bands I am fans of encouraged the buy one and make copies for your fans (since they don't make much money off of it and would rather have more fans that attend their shows) and said if you have to choose between coming to our show or buying our CD come to the show.

[Tiny]

So, when you buy a book/cd/movie/game whatever second hand - how does the original artist/maker get a part of the sale price? 

The OP is about something older that most likely, if they wanted an 'official' copy they'd probably buy it second hand.  

[Deleted]

I pay for books and music because if I was a published artist, I'd want to be compensated, and because I want them to keep producing. It's just one of hose things for me. 

I wouldn't worry bout the ones you did. I'd just toss them them when done. I'd check with the policy before doing it again.  

Can you check out digital audiobooks from your library? 

You know Terebithiais sad, right  

[garion2003]

would you borrow a library book and then photocopy every page?

Or use a scanner and scan every page to your computer?


I don't think your intent was at all evil. But I'd say technically, it was stealing, unless the copyright on the audiobook covers what you did.

[Phoenix84]

I listen to audiobooks when I travel, and sometimes when I'm not traveling.  My 16 gig MP3 player is full of audiobooks.  I'm honestly not sure about the specifics and ethics involved in getting them.  My dad just puts on the stories and I don't really ask where they come from.  From talking to him, I think some are copies of books made from the library, and some are from the library online catalog, which is perfectly legal to download and keep on your own media device, and a few are books he's legitametly bought.  I'm not sure how the online catalog works at his local library, but I do know there are ways to legitamatly download books onto your own media device, I'm just not sure of the specifics.  Burning physical CD's though, I'm sure is illegal, but I'm sure I have some of those on there too.  So the situation with my audibooks is "don't ask, don't tell."  But it should be noted that the vast majority of these items come from the library as it is, so one could argue it's not really hurting the bottem line of the artist. 

I have streamed movies illegaly that I couldn't find on netflix, but not terribly often.  But it seems crazy to pay $20+ for a DVD for a movie that I'm only going to watch once.  This is especially true since video rental places don't really exist anymore.  I just wish there was a better way to get movies outside of netflix.  They don't have everything. 

I've never pirated games.  But those are different than movies, at least to me, because I'll often spend dozens of hours on a game vs. two to three hours with a movie.  Plus I just think I have more respect for the mediam.

[hoops902]

::So, when you buy a book/cd/movie/game whatever second hand - how does the original artist/maker get a part of the sale price? ::

They don't, but you're not creating more of their product. 

::Well, if you extrapolate it out the few cents the artists get from the album, by the thousands/millions of albums they sell and factor in that of the money they earn album sales is a small percentage next to tours and merchandise we're probably talking about maybe 5 mins of my time a year. ::

So you feel it's ok because either the bands don't make much money off it, or perhaps the bands even encourage you to do so.  But the CDs don't belong to the bands.  It sounds like you're ok stealing from companies, and justify stealing from the bands you like as being inconsequential.  Would you be comfortable stealing art from a museum just because you know the artist and he told you he's ok with you stealing the paintings he doesn't own but which he painted?

[Formerly SK]

Aug 19, 2013 13:07:06 GMT -5 oped said:

I pay for books and music because if I was a published artist, I'd want to be compensated, and because I want them to keep producing. It's just one of hose things for me. 

I wouldn't worry bout the ones you did. I'd just toss them them when done. I'd check with the policy before doing it again.  

Can you check out digital audiobooks from your library? 

You know Terebithiais sad, right  

Yep.  We listened to it as a family on a 6hr car ride last week.  DH and I were bawling our eyes out even though we remembered the plot from our own childhood reading of the book.  I was kind of surprised the kids started listening to it again at bedtime, but DD calls it a "great friendship book" instead of a book about death. 

[Deleted]

I rent digital movie from Amazon... There are countless digital movie rental places. 

I do buy second hand books too. 

I think if OP uses them personally, and then destroys them, she could be within the definition of borrowing for personal use. 

[Formerly SK]

I listen to audiobooks when I travel, and sometimes when I'm not traveling. My 16 gig MP3 player is full of audiobooks. I'm honestly not sure about the specifics and ethics involved in getting them. My dad just puts on the stories and I don't really ask where they come from. From talking to him, I think some are copies of books made from the library, and some are from the library online catalog, which is perfectly legal to download and keep on your own media device, and a few are books he's legitametly bought. I'm not sure how the online catalog works at his local library, but I do know there are ways to legitamatly download books onto your own media device, I'm just not sure of the specifics. Burning physical CD's though, I'm sure is illegal, but I'm sure I have some of those on there too.

We downloaded some borrowed MP3 books from our library last year for a road trip.  It was my first time doing it and after the X week lending period ended, the books stayed on my MP3 player.  I finally deleted them because they were taking up too much space (it was most of Beverly Cleary's Ramona books).  I admit I was surprised that they stayed there forever since I was only borrowing them. 

The kids don't have their own MP3 players in their bedrooms so that's why I burned the book onto a CD.  But it seems a weird threshold that having borrowed books forever on your MP3 player is OK, but putting them onto another format is stealing.  Honestly, the whole issue is confusing...which is why I posted about it here. 

[Deleted]

Generally, when I log back in to the library is when they are taken off if borrowed. 

I don't borrow much anymore. I buy 24 credits at a time on Audible. 

[Deleted]

To me, it's term of use. If you kept those CDs as your copies forever, that is not borrowing. I guess if you burned it and used it and then threw out the disk, you might qualify it as borrowing....

[Phoenix84]

Just because someone pirates a piece of media doesn't mean the artist would lose money.  Sometimes if the choice is paying full price or not having the media at all, some will choose not to buy it.

Anyway, I'm not a big proponent of pirating.  Just playing devil's advocate. 

What I find funny is some piraters like to make it out like they're part of some noble cause.  Really dude, you just want free stuff.

It's kind of interesting this came up.  The gaming industry wants to really come down hard on the sale of used games, and is getting a lot of pushback from gamers.  It's not been much of an issue for me, since I very rarely buy used games and buy mostly digitally anyway.  But it's a major issue right now.  Furthermore, a lot of companies are instituting measures to stop piracy, some better for the consumer and some not. 

One thing to keep in mind is buying second hand only benefits the retailer, not the artist.  Furthermore, as I said, renting from the library also doesn't help the artists bottem line. 

So overall, I think it's a gray area.

[hoops902]

::Just because someone pirates a piece of media doesn't mean the artist would lose money.::

Agreed, but the other ridiculous argument is that it only matters if the ARTIST loses money.  It doesn't matter one bit if the artist tell syou to pirate their music if the artist isn't the only one with a financial stake, and they're almost never the only one.

[Rocky Mtn Saver]

Aug 19, 2013 12:39:07 GMT -5 justme said:

Aug 19, 2013 12:30:21 GMT -5 Rocky Mtn Saver said:

Perhaps your boss should just start deciding on his own which of the 8 hours in your working day he should have to pay you for.  I'm sure you're not earning all the minutes in your day.  If he were to stop paying you for some of those minutes, it sounds like you wouldn't care at all.  I mean, they're piddly little things, right?  So if it's more convenient for him and his fellow bosses, he should definitely get to decide that on his own. 

Well, if you extrapolate it out the few cents the artists get from the album, by the thousands/millions of albums they sell and factor in that of the money they earn album sales is a small percentage next to tours and merchandise we're probably talking about maybe 5 mins of my time a year.  

And yet we have labor laws that say that your employer must pay you for every minute of your time. Because it's wrong to expect people to work for you but to then refuse to pay for it. But just because we feel in our own minds that something is inconsequential and we can get away with it, why does that make it any less of an offense? Owning a piece of art is not a right, it's a privilege.

And, you are also acting as though the musician is the only one who loses out when we violate that copyright. He didn't create the CD by himself, and you don't know who else in the chain you are short-changing in your quest to do only what's convenient for you.

[Deleted]

I go through this with my fellow teachers, believe it or not.  Some AP teacher somewhere has scanned the entire text of a copyrighted work that we use.  We have always had kids buy the book in the past, but that was ok because there were so many copies floating around the school that those who couldn't afford it could dig up a copy.  (I probably have 30 copies in my closet for loan, and I've only been teaching this grade level for three years.)  The counselors have copies, the grade-level principals have copies, and so on.

Since we got the Ipads, though, everyone wants to use this scanned copy (PDF) so their kids can download it through Notability and annotate it.  Free access, right?

I keep arguing we are violating copyright laws.  Their argument is that (a) it's for the greater good and (b) they didn't actually scan the copy so they aren't the lawbreakers.  It is a little like saying only the people who uploaded to Napster violated copyright laws.  Those who downloaded are just taking advantage of what is out there.

I am embarrassed that my colleagues dismiss this so lightly.  We are supposed to be teaching our kids moral values along with our content area.  But I just have to tell my kids why we don't do it when I tell them they have to buy the book, and I tell them that it isn't acceptable to do that.  There is no Kindle/Ibooks/Nook version available so it's easy to enforce . . . now.  It may not always be.

[Deleted]

What book is it?

[Deleted]

Aug 19, 2013 16:17:14 GMT -5 oped said:

What book is it?

The book is a particular translation of Beowulf.  Beowulf itself is in the public domain along with some really outdated translations.  But for some reason my students' Old English skills are rusty, and the outdated translations are really bad. 

[Phoenix84]

For formelySK's specific situation, I'd say go with what Oped said.  As long as you burn the CD and then destroy it after use, you're following the intent of the law as it relates to libraries, so I don't see an issue.

[NoNamePerson]

I check books out of library all the time. Don't burn/copy. But am I supposed to send the author some money? I thought they got money from the libraries that BUY their books to put on the shelves. Am I cheating Author out of money because I use the library and don't go buy the book?

[Deleted]

If you copy it and keep a copy for yourself, you are.

[Tennesseer]

If you have any spare time, why not (you) read a not-too-long, one of their favorite books into a tape recorder and then burn it to a CD as a keepsake for the kids. The kids can pass along to their children as their grandmother reading a story to them. 

[justme]

Aug 19, 2013 17:30:32 GMT -5 NoNamePerson said:

I check books out of library all the time. Don't burn/copy. But am I supposed to send the author some money? I thought they got money from the libraries that BUY their books to put on the shelves. Am I cheating Author out of money because I use the library and don't go buy the book?

That's what I'm wondering, that's where I get the music from and my checking stuff out causes the library to purchase more copies of albums because there's a demand for it. I don't pay to read the eBooks I get from the library, but the demand drives them to buy more. I wouldn't buy most of the eBooks, but because I get them from the library the library buys them.

I guess some people never made a mixed tape or gave a friend a book to read because you thought it was good.

[spartan7886]

Some audiobook publishers are now making their library copies expire after so many checkouts. So in that case, you would be depriving them of the time value of their money for however long it takes the library to issue the book as many times as you would have otherwise checked it out again.

justme, there's a huge difference between a mixed tape and giving a friend a book to read. There's only one copy of the book. While your friend's reading it, you're deprived of it.