The Five Stages of Living in a Surveillance State

[Virgil Showlion]

...concisely summarized.


You may also recognize these five stages by their alternate names:

1) Dark
2) lonewolf
3) DJ
4) Virgil
5) mmhmm

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Awesome.

[djAdvocate]

i subscribe to Tom Tomorrow's twitter feed. 

and elections won't fix this, so you got me wrong, Virgil.  only an uprising that makes the Tea Party look silly by comparison will fix it.

if Obama is about as good as it gets on the civil liberties side, we are in bad shape.  i have never made any secret of that opinion.

edit: i am at #4, ftr.  but i will never accept it.

[Virgil Showlion]

I stand corrected.

[Sum Dum Gai]

Sweet!  I'm number 1, I'm number 1, I'm number 1.

Seriously though, the problem is really that the American people couldn't wrap their head around 9/11 and wanted to cling to anything that made them feel like we might be able to stop it next time.  They couldn't accept that sometimes bad shit happens and that's the risk you have to live with in a free society.

Obama is no better or worse than Bush was with respect to shitting on the constitution and we haven't yet had an administration that really abuses the massive intelligence apparatus we've built up since 2001.  It will inevitably happen if we don't reign it in though.

[Deleted]

Aug 11, 2013 14:54:00 GMT -5 Sum Dum Gai said:

Sweet!  I'm number 1, I'm number 1, I'm number 1.

Seriously though, the problem is really that the American people couldn't wrap their head around 9/11 and wanted to cling to anything that made them feel like we might be able to stop it next time.  They couldn't accept that sometimes bad shit happens and that's the risk you have to live with in a free society.

Obama is no better or worse than Bush was with respect to shitting on the constitution and we haven't yet had an administration that really abuses the massive intelligence apparatus we've built up since 2001.  It will inevitably happen if we don't reign it in though.

 
 Seriously, the problem is that the behemoth of government (the hordes of "public servants" with vested interests) is so enormous and has so much momentum that individuals, even presidents, have little power to change it or even to divert the juggernaut from its course.
 It's kind of like a freight train without brakes... 

[Opti]

Seriously though, the problem is really that the American people couldn't wrap their head around 9/11 and wanted to cling to anything that made them feel like we might be able to stop it next time. They couldn't accept that sometimes bad shit happens and that's the risk you have to live with in a free society.

Agreed. I was afraid to say what I really thought for quite awhile after 9/11. The amount of flags, knee jerk patriotism, and the belief speaking out against Bush's policies were treason ... yep bad times. The Patriot Act pisses me off and I see Bush and Obama pretty much the same on this issue. Not happy although scanning emails etc. via computer is much less invasive IMO than letting people read it as the first pass.

I'm probably somewhere between stage 4 and 5.

[mmhmm]

VIRGIL!  It's you, isn't it?  You're sending me all that darned email spam, and it's you trying to sell (forgive me - give) me a home safety system and reduce the interest on my credit cards when I don't pay interest on my credit cards!  You scamp!  It's got to be you!  How else would you know?  Hmmm?  How?

[Virgil Showlion]

Aug 14, 2013 23:22:47 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

VIRGIL!  It's you, isn't it?  You're sending me all that darned email spam, and it's you trying to sell (forgive me - give) me a home safety system and reduce the interest on my credit cards when I don't pay interest on my credit cards!  You scamp!  It's got to be you!  How else would you know?  Hmmm?  How?

You get to represent 5) because of the number of times you've claimed your life is so mundane that you don't care if analysts dig through your mail, e-mail, phone calls, purchases, movement patterns, social contacts, etc., etc.

[mmhmm]

I don't care a whit.  They can dig to their hearts' content - not that I think they're the least bit interested in doing so.

[Virgil Showlion]

Don't you find that sad?

That nothing in that whole list is sacred enough, revolutionary enough or personal enough that you want it kept private?

[Sum Dum Gai]

I'm not plotting to blow anything up, or assassinate anybody, but I still don't need a bunch of government stooges somewhere snooping through my email.  It's the principal of it.  That's my private communication with friends, family members, and random internet weirdos that I don't actually know, the government has no business reading it.

[Virgil Showlion]

Aug 15, 2013 0:21:46 GMT -5 Sum Dum Gai said:

I'm not plotting to blow anything up, or assassinate anybody, but I still don't need a bunch of government stooges somewhere snooping through my email.  It's the principal of it.  That's my private communication with friends, family members, and random internet weirdos that I don't actually know, the government has no business reading it.

To me there's more than just the principle of it.

The man who reads my private correspondence without my permission has violated my privacy and done me harm. It's irrelevant whether his intentions are noble. It's no less a violation than a peeping tom watching a neighbour through binoculars.

Privacy is a right and a thing of value, and no government has the moral authority to defile it for sake of the greater good.

[Sum Dum Gai]

It's no less a violation than a peeping tom watching a neighbour through binoculars.

You're right, I didn't even think of that angle.  The dick picks I text and email out are private dammit!  If some government stooge wants a picture of my junk he has to create a fake FB profile of a hot chick and flirt with me for a second like everybody else.

[Virgil Showlion]

Aug 15, 2013 0:45:29 GMT -5 Sum Dum Gai said:

It's no less a violation than a peeping tom watching a neighbour through binoculars.

You're right, I didn't even think of that angle.  The dick picks I text and email out are private dammit!  If some government stooge wants a picture of my junk he has to create a fake FB profile of a hot chick and flirt with me for a second like everybody else.

Eh...

"Dick picks" tend to be harder to obtain for some of us.

But your comment is truer to life than you think. There was a little-publicized scandal a short while ago about transcripts of private sexual phone calls being circulated around for laughs at some government agency (I think it was the NSA, although not sure).

[Sum Dum Gai]

It probably happens everyday.  I know we snooped a bit for kicks while I was in the military.  The people working in these programs are human beings, if you give them practically unrestricted access to that much information they're going to abuse it.

[mmhmm]

Aug 15, 2013 0:19:46 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Don't you find that sad?

That nothing in that whole list is sacred enough, revolutionary enough or personal enough that you want it kept private?

LOL!  Nope.  Not in the slightest.  I'm a simple person with simple tastes, Virgil.  I don't DO drama.  If it's personal, it won't be in an email.  It will go directly into the ear of someone I love, and trust.  If it's sacred, it will remain within me.  If it's revolutionary, I've BTDT a looong time ago, and I got it out of my system.

[Virgil Showlion]

You've got me there.

If you never discuss anything personal via e-mail or over the phone, you're still out of the NSA's reach. For now, at least. :-\

[mmhmm]

I'm old school, I guess.  That's not surprising.  I'm old.  If something is truly personal, I'm very unlikely to talk about it, at all.  If it comes up, or if I have to get the information out, it will be done in person, and only to someone very, very close to me ... my mother, or one of the kids.  Personal stuff is ... well, it's personal.

[The Captain]

 
When a former employer changed health care providers I received a packet in the mail AND a call from a nurse case manager within a few weeks asking if I needed assistance with learning how to manage my asthma.



I had not had an attack/hospitalization for over two years and the prescriptions were covered by a separate plan.  How the F$ck did they know my medical history so quickly?  AND, how can I be sure my employer does not get that information?

[OldCoyote]

Just think, Someone like me can paw through all of your personal info.

Bank records,  I know what you spend your money on.

I can listen to all of your phone calls, both cell and landline.  We have recorded all of them.

I have access to all of your internet records, I have access to all of the sites you have visited.

I have complete access to your computer thanks to companies like IBM, Google, Myface, Microsoft and others that gave the government  complete access to everything.

WOW,  did you really post that picture to Craigslist Rant and Raves?

I have complete access to all of your medical records.

I have access to video cams all over the world.

By monitoring your water meter, which now works thru electronic reporting , I can tell if you just went to the bathroom.

By using FLIR I can see everything that you are doing in your house, office,or your car in in the dark.  

And on and on and on.

Well time to go to work, past the speed cams,  past the licence plate cams, because I used my debit they know what I had for breakfast, they know where I fueled my truck,
because the GPS in my cell phone tells them where I am. they know if I pulled a permit.

I'm not paranoid,  But I think they just assigned someone just to watch me.  

 

[Deleted]

Whoever gets assigned to me is going to quit out of boredom. 

[mmhmm]

Aug 15, 2013 6:59:58 GMT -5 @sroo4 said:

Aug 15, 2013 1:23:33 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

I'm old school, I guess.  That's not surprising.  I'm old.  If something is truly personal, I'm very unlikely to talk about it, at all.  If it comes up, or if I have to get the information out, it will be done in person, and only to someone very, very close to me ... my mother, or one of the kids.  Personal stuff is ... well, it's personal.

So your bank records, health records, current location, job performance, kids records, etc aren't personal and private either? 

The way I see it, the email thing is just what got everyone's attention,  it's all the stuff that we don't think is being tracked that bothers me


I think the scariest book I ever read was a book of private correspondence out of soviet Russia.  It was absolutely terrifying that the gov't had 'ears' everywhere and people couldn't speak privately anywhere. 
 

While those things are private, Sroo, I'm aware the information is "out there".  I just don't think the government is particularly interested in my personal information; nor do I worry there is somebody sitting in a dark little room poring over the personal data of millions of citizens looking for mine.  I'm not very interesting, really.  Even if the fearful "they" CAN access that stuff, there's not much reason for them to do so.  They've got my tax records.  My health records are singularly uninteresting.  They know where I am from my tax records.  I don't work anymore, but they're welcome to read  my job performance records anytime they like.  My kids are grown and pretty good at running their own lives.  If the kids want to angst about the dreaded government reading their records, they'll handle that on their own.

If the government actually had people digging up information on people like me, we wouldn't have an unemployment problem because it would take an awful lot of people to snoop on every citizen in this country.  I'm just not concerned they're doing that.  The government has bigger fish to fry, IMO.

[mmhmm]

Aug 15, 2013 7:09:00 GMT -5 The Captain said:

 
When a former employer changed health care providers I received a packet in the mail AND a call from a nurse case manager within a few weeks asking if I needed assistance with learning how to manage my asthma.



I had not had an attack/hospitalization for over two years and the prescriptions were covered by a separate plan.  How the F$ck did they know my medical history so quickly?  AND, how can I be sure my employer does not get that information?

They got that information from your employer's previous insurance provider, captain.  If a provider is going to insure you, they need to know what it is they're insuring.  Your medical records are available to them for that reason.  Frankly, I'm more worried about private companies like that snooping around in records that actually concern them than I am about the government doing it; however, with our current system healthcare insurance is an absolute necessity and we have to take the breakage if we're going to have coverage.

[mmhmm]

Thanks for the link, Sroo!  I'm always looking for things for mother's Kindle.  I'll look into that one, as she's not a fan of fiction and prefers to read about the real world.  She might find that book something she'd enjoy.

I think some of this concern may have to do with age and lifestyle, as well.  At my age, and considering I don't do much other than care for my mother (that's a full-time occupation), I'm not likely to draw the attention of anyone "in power".  I'm on Medicare, so the government has access to my health records if needed.  They've got my tax records for financial information. I'm sitting here trying to think what I might do to draw the attention of our government in such a way as to put me in some sort of spotlight.  I can't come up with a thing.

[Jaguar]

Whoever gets my folder we won't be seeing anymore. My medical file is taking up a hell of a lot of space already and it just keeps growing.

[The Captain]

mmhmm

You moderate and particpate in a highly (IMHO) intelligent group of folks discussions on what the government should and should not be doing in our private lives.

You know, peeps who are actually capable of independent thought...

THAT alone should get the government quaking in their boots...

[mmhmm]

This is an unusual message board in that regard, captain.  Folks here are, indeed, more informed than most one encounters roaming the "halls" of the internet.  In this discussion, up to this point, the fact that I'm a moderator here is irrelevant.  I'm posting as your peer - a poster - nothing more.  What I feel about the subject is no more of value than what you feel, or Sroo feels, or any other poster feels.  It's my take on the issue from my vantage point.  Your mileage may vary.

[OldCoyote]

Just remember, Some one from the government, probably worse than me is going  thru stuff right now.

we have been monitoring your postings.

[mmhmm]

Oldcoyote, this matter is currently being discussed in the another thread on Current Events.  The title of that thread is:  "The Five Stages of Living in a Surveillance State". I'm going to merge this thread with that one to maintain continuity of the discussion.

mmhmm, P&M Moderator