Canadians Shoot People Too (Unfortunately)

[Virgil Showlion]

A recent police shooting monopolizing Canadian news. The particulars are that 18-year-old Sammy Yatim, wielding a knife, ordered passengers off a Toronto streetcar. Police arrived on scene, parlayed with Mr. Yatim for a time, and then shot him nine times, killing him.

In a twist from the recent US counterparts, all police activity, including the shooting, were captured on amateur video.

From CBC:

Witnesses say Sammy Yatim was alone on the 505 Dundas streetcar near Trinity Bellwoods Park when he was shot just after midnight ET Saturday morning. He had pulled a knife and ordered everybody off the streetcar, witnesses say.

The video shows the stopped streetcar at a distance, with multiple police officers nearby, at least one with his hands raised to shoulder height.

Nine gunshots are heard within 13 seconds.

Toronto police Chief Bill Blair says he understands the public has many questions after the shooting on a TTC streetcar.

Blair said he knows the public has many questions after seeing the video.

"I am also seeking answers to those important questions," he said. He promised an "unwavering commitment" to finding them.

The chief said he has asked Deputy Chief Mike Federico to reach out to the family.

For details on the controversy (and to watch the video) click on the "Police shooting goes viral" video link at the top of the article. What's especially damning for police is that the officer who shot Mr. Yatim appears to have shot him three times to drop him, and then fired six more times to execute him.

[Tennesseer]

Virgil-I wonder if there could have been a better way and simply shooting him in the leg to disarm him.  

Both the back and front entrances/exits to the bus were open in the video and at the time of the shooting.  One or two officers enter from the back of the bus to distract the kid.  The kid then might move toward the back of the bus.  Then an officer could have entered through the front of the bus and either shot the kid in the leg or tased him to take him down.  The police in the back could have tased him too.

Of course I was not there so am unable to experience all the minute details of the event.  But that both front and back doors of the bus were open gives me some concern things possibly could have been handled differently.

[marvholly]

Virgil
Re your title:

BUT not nearly as frequently. NOTE: I live just outside Chicago and there is NEVER a newscast NOT featuring multiple shooting incidents of some sort.

[Virgil Showlion]

Jul 30, 2013 20:29:38 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Virgil-I wonder if there could have been a better way and simply shooting him in the leg to disarm him.  

Both the back and front entrances/exits to the bus were open in the video and at the time of the shooting.  One or two officers enter from the back of the bus to distract the kid.  The kid then might move toward the back of the bus.  Then an officer could have entered through the front of the bus and either shot the kid in the leg or tased him to take him down.  The police in the back could have tased him too.

Of course I was not there so am unable to experience all the minute details of the event.  But that both front and back doors of the bus were open gives me some concern things possibly could have been handled differently.

Most people here are wondering why the police didn't simply wait him out. It was midnight. The kid had nowhere to go. He had no hostages and was no immediate threat to anybody. "Get out or die." seems drastic.

Plus you're right about the fact that they had plenty of LTL options.

I think the bigger issue will be the excessive nature of the shooting rather than the fact that there was a shooting.

[Virgil Showlion]

Jul 31, 2013 6:38:21 GMT -5 marvholly said:

Virgil
Re your title:

BUT not nearly as frequently. NOTE: I live just outside Chicago and there is NEVER a newscast NOT featuring multiple shooting incidents of some sort.

We have a good number of shootings in Toronto too. By "good number" I mean maybe 10-25 deaths a year. I realize that many people probably get blown away a week in Chicago...

[Tennesseer]

Jul 31, 2013 8:36:24 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Jul 30, 2013 20:29:38 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Virgil-I wonder if there could have been a better way and simply shooting him in the leg to disarm him.  

Both the back and front entrances/exits to the bus were open in the video and at the time of the shooting.  One or two officers enter from the back of the bus to distract the kid.  The kid then might move toward the back of the bus.  Then an officer could have entered through the front of the bus and either shot the kid in the leg or tased him to take him down.  The police in the back could have tased him too.

Of course I was not there so am unable to experience all the minute details of the event.  But that both front and back doors of the bus were open gives me some concern things possibly could have been handled differently.

Most people here are wondering why the police didn't simply wait him out. It was midnight. The kid had nowhere to go. He had no hostages and was no immediate threat to anybody. "Get out or die." seems drastic.

Plus you're right about the fact that they had plenty of LTL options.

I think the bigger issue will be the excessive nature of the shooting rather than the fact that there was a shooting.

Virgil-in addition to just waiting him out, the police could have slashed/shot out the tires of the bus so he couldn't drive away.

But yes, the bigger issue does appear to be the excessive nature of the shooting.  The police seem to have had so many other options they didn't take.

[Deleted]

It is hard to tell what happened from the video.   Maybe the guy on the bus lunged, or turned quickly or pirouetted.

[mmhmm]

No way to even guess what was going on from the video.  My condolences to the boy's family.

[mollyc]

As a follow up, the police officer has been charged with 2nd degree murder

Toronto police officer charged

[Virgil Showlion]

Thanks for update, mollyc.

[Value Buy]

This Grandma did not get run over by a Reindeer either.
usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/10/02/20789726-grandma-shot-killed-by-new-hampshire-state-troopers-after-car-chase?lite=

Maybe it's time to disarm the police and leave the citizens armed.

[Virgil Showlion]

Oct 2, 2013 22:18:05 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

This Grandma did not get run over by a Reindeer either.
usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/10/02/20789726-grandma-shot-killed-by-new-hampshire-state-troopers-after-car-chase?lite=

Maybe it's time to disarm the police and leave the citizens armed.

She's 45. The article says "habitual offender" on a suspended license, driving erratically, which to me screams "repeat drunk driver". She makes a run for it, leads police on a high speed chase, and gets shot.

She obviously isn't too concerned about killing others. I'm not shedding too many tears for her.

I've been told that in Uruguay and Venezuela, if you're caught driving drunk, the cops put a bullet in your head and leave you in the ditch. The ultimate "zero tolerance" policy.

[ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ]

Don't you just love how they put a spin on these stories with headlines to make the cops look like the bad guys and "poor old granny" the victim?

[EVT1]

Oct 2, 2013 23:46:38 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Oct 2, 2013 22:18:05 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

This Grandma did not get run over by a Reindeer either.
usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/10/02/20789726-grandma-shot-killed-by-new-hampshire-state-troopers-after-car-chase?lite=

Maybe it's time to disarm the police and leave the citizens armed.

She's 45. The article says "habitual offender" on a suspended license, driving erratically, which to me screams "repeat drunk driver". She makes a run for it, leads police on a high speed chase, and gets shot.

She obviously isn't too concerned about killing others. I'm not shedding too many tears for her.

I've been told that in Uruguay and Venezuela, if you're caught driving drunk, the cops put a bullet in your head and leave you in the ditch. The ultimate "zero tolerance" policy.

Come on man- you know how this works. Use the grandma angle to rope people in even though she might be some crazy meth head. BUT- I will always question police shootings like this where people are unarmed- and true she might be armed with a car like GZ was armed with a sidewalk - but it should be looked into as a matter of policy.

[EVT1]

My stance is this- and I am a CCW holder and gun owner- the USA has a major gun violence problem and I would like to fix it.  I read a stat the other day that more people in the USA were killed by guns since 1968 than in ALL wars since the country was founded.  We have a problem.

I admit I do not know the answer- but sure as shit I would jack up all offenses with firearms.  Let the drug guys out and lock up these violent assholes using guns in crimes. 

And another thing- we had some shithead blow a hole in his leg at Wal-Mart because he was carrying (legally) without a holster and somehow it went off- in a fucking store- and the answer to this by the police- no charges!  Apparently it is ok to fuck up with your gun and fire it off in public as long as no one else is injured and you didn't mean to do it- nevermind the negligence of carrying your gun shoved down your pants. 21 years old......To think the USA doesn't have a gun problem is to be the dumbest bunch on Earth- (NRA).  More guns for everyone!

[zibazinski]

Two more jerks removed from society. Thank you.

[Virgil Showlion]

Oct 3, 2013 1:44:52 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

My stance is this- and I am a CCW holder and gun owner- the USA has a major gun violence problem and I would like to fix it.  I read a stat the other day that more people in the USA were killed by guns since 1968 than in ALL wars since the country was founded.  We have a problem.

I admit I do not know the answer- but sure as shit I would jack up all offenses with firearms.  Let the drug guys out and lock up these violent assholes using guns in crimes. 

And another thing- we had some shithead blow a hole in his leg at Wal-Mart because he was carrying (legally) without a holster and somehow it went off- in a fucking store- and the answer to this by the police- no charges!  Apparently it is ok to fuck up with your gun and fire it off in public as long as no one else is injured and you didn't mean to do it- nevermind the negligence of carrying your gun shoved down your pants. 21 years old......To think the USA doesn't have a gun problem is to be the dumbest bunch on Earth- (NRA).  More guns for everyone!

He accidentally blows a hole in his leg and you're upset that the police didn't charge him with a crime?

[Shooby]

OMG!  I thought Canada was the Utopia on Earth! 

[Virgil Showlion]

Oct 3, 2013 7:33:45 GMT -5 Shooby said:

OMG!  I thought Canada was the Utopia on Earth! 

Not quite. We do, however, have a functional federal government.

[Shooby]

You can have it! 

[Virgil Showlion]

Oct 3, 2013 7:37:18 GMT -5 Shooby said:

You can have it! 

It has its strong points.

Five major federal parties instead of two. It's about one fifteenth the size of the US government and provides just under ten times as much representation per capita. It can quite literally be replaced in four weeks (rather than the US campaign cycle, which seems to last for 1.5 years). It comes with an actual central bank rather than a foreign conglomerate of banks "subject to oversight" controlling the national currency. And to the best of my knowledge, it hasn't thus far legalized torture, indefinite detention without trial, preemptive war, warrantless wiretapping and internet surveillance, assassination of Canadian citizens, or drone strikes on Canadian citizens, which is nice.

It also uses the British parliamentary model of government, which IMNSHO is functionally superior to the congressional republic model used by the US, despite a few notable drawbacks.

[Tennesseer]

While it appears no malice was involved, a woman is dead. Folks-be careful with you weapons as others' lives depend upon it.

Accidental Shooting Leaves Woman Dead After Hug

Accidental Shooting Leaves Woman Dead After Hug

Posted on: 8:06 pm, October 2, 2013, by Kara Sutyak

PHOENIX, Arizona–A woman was shot and killed while giving her boyfriend a hug, KTVK reported.

Police said the 24-year-old woman and her 18-year-old boyfriend were hugging at a home in Phoenix when she became uncomfortable with a gun in his waistband.

According to KTVK, as the man removed the gun, it went off, and a bullet struck her.

She died at the hospital.

Authorities said the shooting appeared to be an accident.

[Value Buy]

She became "uncomfortable" while hugging him?
And the police bought that fairy tale?

Unfortunately no link, so I do not know whether they got her statement before dieing

[Value Buy]

Oct 2, 2013 23:46:38 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Oct 2, 2013 22:18:05 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

This Grandma did not get run over by a Reindeer either.
usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/10/02/20789726-grandma-shot-killed-by-new-hampshire-state-troopers-after-car-chase?lite=

Maybe it's time to disarm the police and leave the citizens armed.

She's 45. The article says "habitual offender" on a suspended license, driving erratically, which to me screams "repeat drunk driver". She makes a run for it, leads police on a high speed chase, and gets shot.

She obviously isn't too concerned about killing others. I'm not shedding too many tears for her.

I've been told that in Uruguay and Venezuela, if you're caught driving drunk, the cops put a bullet in your head and leave you in the ditch. The ultimate "zero tolerance" policy.

She was unarmed. The original policeman gave up the chase, and found her minutes later, sideways in the interstate, and approached. She took off, and another policeman joined in and eventually shot her.
There were four shots. One killed her.
Yes suspended sentence. Does not mean she should be killed. If that is the case anyone wearing a hoodie with three to four arrests should be taken out.
No mention of trying to shoot the tires out, although sop probably forbids that.....

[Tennesseer]

Oct 3, 2013 9:34:03 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

She became "uncomfortable" while hugging him?
And the police bought that fairy tale?

Unfortunately no link, so I do not know whether they got her statement before dieing

You didn't see the link I posted. Seriously?

[EVT1]

Oct 3, 2013 7:32:25 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Oct 3, 2013 1:44:52 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

My stance is this- and I am a CCW holder and gun owner- the USA has a major gun violence problem and I would like to fix it.  I read a stat the other day that more people in the USA were killed by guns since 1968 than in ALL wars since the country was founded.  We have a problem.

I admit I do not know the answer- but sure as shit I would jack up all offenses with firearms.  Let the drug guys out and lock up these violent assholes using guns in crimes. 

And another thing- we had some shithead blow a hole in his leg at Wal-Mart because he was carrying (legally) without a holster and somehow it went off- in a fucking store- and the answer to this by the police- no charges!  Apparently it is ok to fuck up with your gun and fire it off in public as long as no one else is injured and you didn't mean to do it- nevermind the negligence of carrying your gun shoved down your pants. 21 years old......To think the USA doesn't have a gun problem is to be the dumbest bunch on Earth- (NRA).  More guns for everyone!

He accidentally blows a hole in his leg and you're upset that the police didn't charge him with a crime?

Hell yes!  He put the public in danger by being an irresponsible dumbass with a weapon.  Not saying you have to lock the guy up but there needs to be weapons charge on his record.

The last mass shooter was able to buy his shotgun exacly because of police and prosecutors not charging him with the two gun crimes he was guilty of.  There needs to be strict liability charges for guns that 'go off'- because anyone with a brain knows guns do not do that- unless you buy into the argument that in fact guns do kill people on their own.

[Virgil Showlion]

Oct 3, 2013 17:07:40 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

Oct 3, 2013 7:32:25 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

He accidentally blows a hole in his leg and you're upset that the police didn't charge him with a crime?

Hell yes!  He put the public in danger by being an irresponsible dumbass with a weapon.  Not saying you have to lock the guy up but there needs to be weapons charge on his record.

The last mass shooter was able to buy his shotgun exacly because of police and prosecutors not charging him with the two gun crimes he was guilty of.  There needs to be strict liability charges for guns that 'go off'- because anyone with a brain knows guns do not do that- unless you buy into the argument that in fact guns do kill people on their own.

Write your congressman, I guess.

As far as I'm concerned, you're a country with a third of a billion people, some of which are going to accidentally discharge weapons.

If they injure somebody, charge them. If they damage property, sue them to recoup the damages. If blowing a hole in their own leg isn't enough of a deterrent to mishandling a weapon, no post facto criminal charge is going to fix that. And quite clearly your federal government has bigger problems to worry about than the one-in-a-billion chance that a man might accidentally discharge his weapon twice and could be prevented from doing so (...somehow...?) by charging him criminally.

[workpublic]

I realize that many people probably get blown away a week in Chicago

sometimes in a day.

He accidentally blows a hole in his leg and you're upset that the police didn't charge him with a crime?

see; Plaxico Burress

sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=4493887

[EVT1]

So shooting a gun in a Wal-Mart should just be A-OK as long as you say 'whoops'?

And forget this 'accidentally' bullshit- guns do not go off accidentally.  They go off quite a bit when negligent people possess them however.

If you want a gun accept the responsibility and pay the penalty if you do something stupid- in no way should someone be let off the hook for discharging a weapon in a damn store.   

[Virgil Showlion]

Oct 3, 2013 21:30:57 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

So shooting a gun in a Wal-Mart should just be A-OK as long as you say 'whoops'?

And forget this 'accidentally' bullshit- guns do not go off accidentally.  They go off quite a bit when negligent people possess them however.

If you want a gun accept the responsibility and pay the penalty if you do something stupid- in no way should someone be let off the hook for discharging a weapon in a damn store.   

Well of course the gun doesn't magically fire itself for no reason, but unless you assume the man's intent was to blow a hole in his leg...

And besides that, there are laws that prohibit discharging firearms in public. But like virtually every other offense in existence, the state won't mete out punishment when i) it's reasonable to assume the offense wasn't intentional, ii) nobody was harmed as a result of the offense, and iii) the offender did nothing illegal leading up to the offense (e.g. carrying a firearm without a license).

If your foot slips and you back your car into your neighbour's garage, you're fully expected to pay for the garage, but the police aren't going to charge you with destruction of property.

If you're playing football in the park and you accidentally overthrow the ball, which bounces uneventfully across a busy road, you're not charged with stunting just because the ball could potentially have caused a traffic accident.

If you trip on a subway plaform, fall forward, and knock down a man standing ahead of you, you're not charged with manslaughter just because if you'd tripped coming from another direction you would have knocked him down onto the subway tracks.

The law is meant to deter and to punish. If nobody is hurt by an offense and the offense isn't intentional, there's nothing to punish. If a man acts within his rights up until the moment of the offense and the offense isn't intentional, there's nothing to deter.

If you want to make it illegal to carry a firearm without a holster, write your congressman. Make your case that accidental self-shootings are a plague on society and must be stopped. Personally I suspect that if the risk of blowing a hole in your leg and crippling yourself for the rest of your life isn't sufficient to deter you, the risk of paying a fine certainly won't be either.