Fast-Food Workers in NYC Stage Strikes, Rallies

[EVT1]

Aug 9, 2013 12:56:49 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Aug 9, 2013 10:34:01 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

Shoot, if I can't understand them on the phone, I'm sure not going to hire them for a job where people need to understand them. I hate that when I get transferred to someone who can't speak clearly. Waste of my time and I usually hang up.

One thing we did to compete against the race-to-the-bottom illegal immigrants in the landscaping business was to include- "English Speaking Crew Members On Every Job".  We were accused of racism and all the rest of it, but we stated simply that we did the research and found people were frustrated when they couldn't communicate with their landscaping crew that they were paying to do the job to express concerns, give direction, or even simply say something nice or offer refreshments.  It doesn't matter what your race or ethnicity is- it matters that you speak the dominant language of the vast majority of the community you serve.

If you were of any size someone probably would have sued your ass over it.  You cannot do that.

[Angel!]

Aug 9, 2013 13:31:33 GMT -5 deminmaine said:

If you were of any size someone probably would have sued your ass over it. You cannot do that.

OK serious question- Why can't you do that?

I was wondering the same thing. 

We have a company here that I see their truck(s?) sometimes named Gringo Dave's Electric.  I just saw them today and was wondering if they picked that name to indicate that they speak english or something.

[EVT1]

Aug 9, 2013 13:31:33 GMT -5 deminmaine said:

If you were of any size someone probably would have sued your ass over it. You cannot do that.

OK serious question- Why can't you do that?

Title VII of the Civil Rights Act.

[Angel!]

Aug 9, 2013 13:52:50 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

Aug 9, 2013 13:31:33 GMT -5 deminmaine said:

OK serious question- Why can't you do that?

Title VII of the Civil Rights Act.

Title VII prohibits employment discrimination based on race, color, religion, sex and national origin.

PBP is merely advertising that they speak english, which might have implications regarding race and origin, but not necessarily.  There are tons of hispanics that speak english fluently. 

[Opti]

And if he's advertising that english speakers exist on every crew he's not actually saying they all have to speak english either. Quite a few jobs I see posted want people who speak both English and Spanish. Some tech jobs look for English plus Chinese or English
plus Korean, etc.

[Angel!]

Aug 9, 2013 14:21:02 GMT -5 deminmaine said:

This is a bit of a re-run, but I can't believe anybody comes here without intending to learn the language.  I know the English Adult Ed classes around here are overflowing.  They can't wait to speak the language.  More opportunity, better jobs, it's a no brainer.

It's often not easy.  We had a Russian employee a number of years ago.  He was a bright man, but English did not come easily to him.  Still, he struggled with it, and did the best he could.  The last I knew he had his own home, and his own small business.  People who strive, often succeed.

I remember this guy that worked with my dad - he used to carry around an english/spanish dictionary and look up words to converse with my dad.  He was trying hard to learn the language, but I think my dad was one of the few who would bother to stop and talk to him so he could get practice.

[Opti]

Dem, there are many in the housekeeping and cleaning trades that only learn a little and don't really try to learn more. This of course is from my limited experience in NJ mostly at my present job and another one. Maybe some find it too hard or too costly. IDK. But there are some that don't seem to try or try much.

[EVT1]

Aug 9, 2013 14:05:13 GMT -5 deminmaine said:

OK, Title VII- can't discriminate based on race, color, religion, sex or national origin.

That says nothing about the ability to speak English.

Some jobs it is simply a given that you must- television reporter, police dispatcher, etc.  I don't see why companies can't demand that their employees speak it as well.

I have been on jobsites and seen crews that don't speak English.  It is inefficient, and can even be dangerous.  Paul makes a very good point in doing business with homeowners as well.

I honestly don't believe requiring a basic command of English as being discriminatory.  Has the Civil Rights Act been used to prove otherwise, or was their also a component of racial or ethnic discrimination going on as well?

You can't just have an 'English only' workplace- and knowing PBP I am sure he was not advertising that a couple members of his crew were English speaking, I am sure he didn't hire anyone at all that didn't speak English- which is not allowed unless it is an essential part of a job- mowing grass and fixing flower beds do not require English.  Small employers though can do it which I am sure he was hence never being sued.

[Sum Dum Gai]

mowing grass and fixing flower beds do not require English.

They do if their boss does't speak Spanish.  I'm not bilingual, I couldn't effectively manage somebody that didn't speak the same language I did.  And the civil rights act doesn't protect language.  That's why you see jobs advertised as english required, bilingual in whatever language required, etc.  The government can't force you to hire a worker that you can't communicate with.

[zibazinski]

Our association didn't hire a company whose majority of workers didn't speak English. Homeowners needed/wanted to communicate and couldn't. We ended up spending more but homeowners were happier.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Aug 9, 2013 13:12:44 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

Aug 9, 2013 12:56:49 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

One thing we did to compete against the race-to-the-bottom illegal immigrants in the landscaping business was to include- "English Speaking Crew Members On Every Job".  We were accused of racism and all the rest of it, but we stated simply that we did the research and found people were frustrated when they couldn't communicate with their landscaping crew that they were paying to do the job to express concerns, give direction, or even simply say something nice or offer refreshments.  It doesn't matter what your race or ethnicity is- it matters that you speak the dominant language of the vast majority of the community you serve.

If you were of any size someone probably would have sued your ass over it.  You cannot do that.

Yes, you can. In fact, English speaking can be a job requirement, as can bilingual. There is NO issue advertising English Speaking. And FWIW, we were of size, we DID get sued, And the case was dismissed, and the party that sued us agreed to settle with us for legal fees and court costs in leiu of us suing them for tortious interference because in addition to the lawsuit, they staged protests (of 3 people) outside the yard.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Aug 9, 2013 15:24:06 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

Aug 9, 2013 14:05:13 GMT -5 deminmaine said:

OK, Title VII- can't discriminate based on race, color, religion, sex or national origin.

That says nothing about the ability to speak English.

Some jobs it is simply a given that you must- television reporter, police dispatcher, etc.  I don't see why companies can't demand that their employees speak it as well.

I have been on jobsites and seen crews that don't speak English.  It is inefficient, and can even be dangerous.  Paul makes a very good point in doing business with homeowners as well.

I honestly don't believe requiring a basic command of English as being discriminatory.  Has the Civil Rights Act been used to prove otherwise, or was their also a component of racial or ethnic discrimination going on as well?

You can't just have an 'English only' workplace- and knowing PBP I am sure he was not advertising that a couple members of his crew were English speaking, I am sure he didn't hire anyone at all that didn't speak English- which is not allowed unless it is an essential part of a job- mowing grass and fixing flower beds do not require English.  Small employers though can do it which I am sure he was hence never being sued.

Actually, yes, you can have an English only workplace. We didn't of course, but there are no rules on it. We required- REQUIRED- bilingual. Meaning, bring the Espanol, but you needed to speak- including read and write- English. Every member of our crew was in customer service. They could be required to communicate with customers, including answering phones, and using email.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Aug 9, 2013 14:21:02 GMT -5 deminmaine said:

This is a bit of a re-run, but I can't believe anybody comes here without intending to learn the language.  I know the English Adult Ed classes around here are overflowing.  They can't wait to speak the language.  More opportunity, better jobs, it's a no brainer.

It's often not easy.  We had a Russian employee a number of years ago.  He was a bright man, but English did not come easily to him.  Still, he struggled with it, and did the best he could.  The last I knew he had his own home, and his own small business.  People who strive, often succeed.

I worked for a Russian guy- he taught me to lay patio brix as he called them (roll the r). 

[Tennesseer]

Aug 9, 2013 13:31:33 GMT -5 deminmaine said:

If you were of any size someone probably would have sued your ass over it. You cannot do that.

OK serious question- Why can't you do that?

An employer may be implementing BFOQs (bona fide occupational qualifications) which may be illegal within the company and work duties and responsibilities of employees.

Bona Fide Occupational Qualification

[Deleted]

Aug 9, 2013 13:02:47 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

Perhaps TN will elaborate.    From what I read his point was that someone you screen over the phone could have standing to sue by virtue of the 'interview'.

Take some older person that you screened out right away for some legitimate reason- that you would have not interviewed based on an application- you are going not going to be able to stop an age discrimination suit claiming they never applied.  In fact you could bring one on yourself if in an 'interview' or 'screening' all you asked about was age and job experience.  All it takes is for one person to think that they were plainly qualified and once they told you their age the conversation soon ended and they never heard back from you. 

If you ask anyone their age in any way,you are an idiot

You don't ever have to ask....easy to estimate....that is all I need

Questions are limited to prior jobs and what their basic duties were

Nothing else

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Aug 9, 2013 17:46:32 GMT -5 @gdgyva said:

Aug 9, 2013 13:02:47 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

Perhaps TN will elaborate.    From what I read his point was that someone you screen over the phone could have standing to sue by virtue of the 'interview'.

Take some older person that you screened out right away for some legitimate reason- that you would have not interviewed based on an application- you are going not going to be able to stop an age discrimination suit claiming they never applied.  In fact you could bring one on yourself if in an 'interview' or 'screening' all you asked about was age and job experience.  All it takes is for one person to think that they were plainly qualified and once they told you their age the conversation soon ended and they never heard back from you. 

If you ask anyone their age in any way,you are an idiot

You don't ever have to ask....easy to estimate....that is all I need

Questions are limited to prior jobs and what their basic duties were

Nothing else

All you have to do is get them to sign a release for a background check, and you'll have their DOB.

The primary consideration for me was the prospects ATTITUDE. I know how to train for skill, I don't know if it's possible to correct a shitty attitude. I also want to make sure they had at least a vague familiarity with the work. It may sound low or no skill, but some experience is critical.

But back to the OP: Screening just makes sense over the phone. It saves everyone time. I realize there are some people who prefer, and maybe even believe they have a better shot in person. I understand the frustration of being quickly weeded out. But to read some kind of discrimination into it will b difficult if we are talking real world reason and logic.

[workpublic]

you can also suss out who's an older worker by a phone screen.

[Deleted]

so no one answered

is phone screening discriminatory?

if so, how

and do not answer age...no one is stupid enough to ask age, sex, race, marital status, or sexual orientation on a pre screen call

but it seems a lot of us use these to pare down the number of applicants for a specific job

[Tennesseer]

Aug 11, 2013 11:44:24 GMT -5 @gdgyva said:

so no one answered

is phone screening discriminatory?

if so, how

and do not answer age...no one is stupid enough to ask age, sex, race, marital status, or sexual orientation on a pre screen call

but it seems a lot of us use these to pare down the number of applicants for a specific job

I really doubt you will find a lawyer here who specializes in labor and employment issues.  But keep asking for one.  Why don't you ask your dealership's Labor and Employment lawyer who is associated with your HR department.  While you are asking the Labor and Employment lawyer about phone interviews, ask him about the appropriateness of calling your female workers "girls" when speaking with your male-coworkers.  Hopefully, your Labor and Employment lawyer is not female.

I do wonder about this previous statement of yours: 

If you ask anyone their age in any way,you are an idiot

You don't ever have to ask....easy to estimate....that is all I need

Questions are limited to prior jobs and what their basic duties were

Nothing else

So do you or your HR department estimate a resume sender's age when screening their resumes and do you do anything with that estimated age?  I have to wonder why you even posted "that is all I need".

[Deleted]

so the answer is no, and you are just whistling dixie

thanx

thought you were full of shit....but happy you verified

[Tennesseer]

Aug 11, 2013 15:17:10 GMT -5 @gdgyva said:

so the answer is no, and you are just whistling dixie

thanx

thought you were full of shit....but happy you verified

In reply #87, you asked for a lawyer to weigh in.  I suggested you contact a Labor and Employment lawyer for your answer.  I think the one who is full of (illegal hiring practices) shit is you.

Between the way you have described how you treat 'applicants' for employment, especially those older than 50, and all your comments on the discrimination thread you started, I know exactly what type of individual you are. 

And you tell me I am full of shit.   

[Deleted]

you dont live in the real world dude

you "worked" for someone connected to the feds for years, and you think everyone has to toe the same line

the real world doesnt work like that....

but that's ok

i wanted to see what "the expert" had to say.....we met with our HR attorneys on thursday, just to verify my practices

i figured better safe than sorry.....

as long as we continue to follow my system.....we have zero liability

you may mean well....and in your world, everyone may need to follow a set of very strict rules

the real corporate world doesnt work like that.....

so....you may be able to advise quasi federal or governmental agencies.....

but as far as the corporate world....yes....you are full of shit

[Tennesseer]

Please show me where I said I worked for the government.  You won't find me saying that anywhere.  

For thirty years, I worked for a publicly held company (yes, that's the corporate world) whose 2012 revenues were over $40 billion.  I even got to retire at the age of 53 with full benefits and full traditional pension.

What was your dealership's revenue last year?

[Tennesseer]

By the way gdgyva-I believe the second paragraph in my reply #70 pretty much states the same thing as your "HR attorneys" told you the other day.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Aug 10, 2013 9:44:07 GMT -5 workpublic said:

you can also suss out who's an older worker by a phone screen.

My point is you don't even have to invite them to the phone screen.  If age is your chosen area of discrimination, you can send the thank you for your resume form letter before you even get to it just by the information already supplied.  The point is that it's a tough case to make that the phone screening is some inherently corrupt means of interviewing people.  

I get the frustration- especially since I'm old(er)   concerning the way the world works today.  I would prefer someone have the stones to look me in the eye and tell me I'm not qualified because of X, or I'm qualified, but candidate b is better qualified because of x, y, and z.  But they don't.  Decisions these days are often made quickly and without a lot of interpersonal interaction.  I can't remember a time when "people skills" counted less than they do today.  This isn't necessarily a bad thing though for companies- eliminating the possibility of a candidate charming themselves into a job does have benefits.

[doc]

I generally don't talk on the phone.  I'm extremely hard of hearing.  If I can't see the person talking, I am pretty much lost.  And because it's been so long since I could hear, my use of verbal language has declined.  A couple of years ago I tried wishing my favorite bank teller "Merry Christmas."  She didn't understand.  It is frustrating having lived in this country all of my life and am now relegated to signing and while it is said to be the third most popular/used language here, no one understands.

Discrimination?  People realize you can't hear them and they slow their speech and exagerate their mouth movements -- actually makes it more difficult.  Some just dismiss, believing I'm stupid.  Fortunately, I own the business.

Having read through some of the latter pages on this thread, imagine the frustration of the witnessed arrogance by those on the other end of the phone.  In truth, they know more than one language which is what landed them the job in the first place.  And given that there are so many dialects and accents used here in the states.  If you're from Geojah...  It's "rot."  If you're from 'Bama, it's "rot-ah!"  If you're from the northern central states, it's "right!", etc., etc., etc..

Among the many laws governing employment and access to, is the Americans with Disabilities Act.  Unless the prospective employer can show where it will cause undue financial hardship, the law states you STILL have to employ them.  Not really sure how that plays out as far as "freedom" goes.  I know that I would never apply for a job requiring me to verbally communicate -- especially over the phone!