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Post by tea4me on Feb 12, 2011 13:00:34 GMT -5
Is ambition something a person is born with or can it be learned? How can you teach someone if they work a little harder or work a little more, than can have more?
I am talking about people that work as little as possible and then whine about how poor they are - yet they think they are entitled to nice things.
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busymom
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Post by busymom on Feb 12, 2011 13:20:32 GMT -5
I'd say ambition is learned. A good role model is a great start, and encouragement too! My folks let me babysit as soon as I was old enough to be resposible enough to watch a child, and I had my first "real" job at age 14. That was motivation enough for me--I kinda took it from there.
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Post by Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ on Feb 12, 2011 13:43:17 GMT -5
People are ambitious by nature I believe. Once they get into the working world, they realize that their superiors, supervisors and management have political turf to protect.
I've seen many very ambitious people cut off at the knees because due to political maneuvering and butt covering.
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patchwork150
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Post by patchwork150 on Feb 12, 2011 15:45:19 GMT -5
IMHO- ambition is a trait that is learned. If not from your immediate family (parents, older siblings, grand parents) then from those you admire (famous people, friends, friend's parents, whomever).
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Post by money100 on Feb 12, 2011 17:36:58 GMT -5
I don't know if ambition comes from nature or nurturing.
I'm not ambitious. I guess I am ambitious in another way: I don't want to be part of the rat race. I just don't participate.
I go to work for 9, leave at 5. If I'm running late for my morning train, I still sit my ass down and eat a bowl of cut up fruit (that I didn't cut up -- I paid more to have the supermarket do it) with balkan yogurt and a cup of joe. I walk the same pace to work, sit on the train, read a book I bought (didn't borrow from the library) and will then donate to the library, NOT asking for a tax receipt.
If I reach a point where I don't like my work anymore or am not learning new stuff, then I research jobs each Friday evening and send out one (1) cover letter with one (1) resume to one (1) job posting.
I don't stress it and it's worked so far.
Overall, it's actually a recent thing I've done to SAVE money despite the obvious spendy things I've written above. When I participated in the rat race, I reacted terribly (not saying everyone would): working late hours led to more take-out nights, finding refuge in retail therapy, haircare and salon visits because my badly behaved hair needed to be smoother, shinier, healthier-looking, in order to "present well" at work. Nevermind all the networking dinners out in order to keep contact with people that I've been pretty pleased to burn bridges with.
My sister, on the other hand, busts her hump in a definite uphill climb for a career where it's more important who you know than what you know. My mom is also a very busy single mom, who juggles a few odd jobs in addition to her full-time work and work around her house in order to have all her dreams come true.
I just don't want to play anymore. My only ambition is to be able to go buy what I want when I want while keeping a mindful eye on wants vs needs and not cluttering up my home with STUFF. AFTER I clear my large CC debt, of course.
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Elizabeth
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Post by Elizabeth on Feb 12, 2011 20:04:42 GMT -5
This reminds me of the whole nature vs. nurture argument. It's really a tough call. I know people from low income families who work hard to accomplish their goals, and I have seen people from rich families with all the advantages do the same. I have also seen both poor and rich backgrounds be lazy and not strive for much of anything. So I believe it is a combination of the instinct to succeed, followed by the drive to make it happen. And a little sprinke of luck never hurts.
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Elizabeth
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Post by Elizabeth on Feb 12, 2011 20:05:08 GMT -5
Oops money100-I didn't read your post before posting. Karma for ya- cuz great minds think alike.
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marmar
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Post by marmar on Feb 12, 2011 21:02:52 GMT -5
I think it's mostly internal, though I'm sure for some, it can be learned. Case in point, my sibling and I were born of the same two parents, raised in the same household, held to the same standards, sent to the same schools...but the differences between us are night and day. I've always been the ambitious go-getter, and sibling's just sort of taken whatever comes along. I worked diligently for my pristine credit; have a decent car that's been paid off for years; have tenure with my employer; am working to finish my bachelor's via my employer's tuition reimbursement program (no student loan debt!). While sibling does well enough, our circumstances are totally opposite of each other. Sibling's credit is shot; sibling is always needing financial help; sibling's car (which was donated by a parental unit after wrecking the *first* car that was also donated by said parental unit) is fixing to crap out any day now... I would think if ambition is a learned trait, something would have rubbed off on my sibling. But that's just my two cents.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2011 1:11:49 GMT -5
I think ambition can be either nature or learned. Some people seem to have been born knowing exactly what they want to accomplish and they work hard to get there. Other people (I think) become driven because they feel they have to prove something or they want to overcome circumstance.
Having said that, I'm not really ambitious. I have no interest in climbing a corporate ladder or blazing new trails. I'm willing to work for what I want, but I'm cool just being comfortable. The only thing that motivates me to invest years of countless hours and vast sums of energy, is being a good Mom. Material gain beyond my idea of *comfortable*......... I have limits on what I'm willing to give up for it. <<<Shrug>>> But I do admire people that are driven to accomplish something and put in honest, hard work to do it. The world would be a sad (and boring) place if everybody was like me.
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Post by money100 on Feb 13, 2011 10:31:26 GMT -5
Thanks, Elizabeth! That's pretty cool ;D
PinkCashmere, get out of my head!! I guess I’m basically what you described. I just want to be comfortable – love that word. And at the same time, just very pleased for ambitious folks who want to do it all and have the drive to try to get there.
Snerdley, I do appreciate you turning the debate on its head, though. You’re right. Much more is expected in order to be granted that title. It’s certainly the myth that I perpetuated once upon a time. I’d race home (late) from work in order to hang out at the gym, race from the gym to home, just in time to decide that I was way too tired to cook. And on the weekends, trying to balance doing all the personal grooming that was necessary to look put together with networking (brunches/lunches) and actual quality time spent with my husband. I’m not sure how people do it, but it ain’t for me.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2011 10:56:31 GMT -5
I am of the mindset that ambition doesn't just refer to money/clout/material goods. It's about having a goal and doing everything you can to achieve it.
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dcmetrocrab
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Post by dcmetrocrab on Feb 13, 2011 11:28:50 GMT -5
Interesting thread. Lately the term has been tied more to monetary gains and being go go go 247, as Snerdley reminds us. I agree with moneyjenny82 on the general defintion of the word ambition. After all, isn't it an ambitious goal to retire comfortably at 40? That said, I believe ambition is a combination of nature and nurture. It can be learned, with those being naturally ambitious being an easier lesson to pick up, and it can also be unlearned, when someone is slapped a little too hard to the ground or is surrounded by examples of failure day in day out. In the OP's example, I wonder what sort of family situation/community the individuals grew up in. A strong mentor or shining example of someone who bucked the odds really helps.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Feb 13, 2011 11:40:26 GMT -5
I don't know if you are born with it, or if it develops - but I know you can't force it upon someone.
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stats45
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Post by stats45 on Feb 13, 2011 12:02:54 GMT -5
I completely agree thyme. A large amount of the 'give me advice about my financial/relationship' posts have to do with people having varying levels of concern or ambition about finances and trying to bring the other person around.
I would also add that the 'nature vs. nurture' argument is more about children and young adults. With some notable but few exceptions, people don't turn the corner at 35 or 40 and become remarkably ambitious. I think that people would be better served by realizing if they are in a relationship with someone at 25, 30, etc. , the person you see is the person you will get in the future.
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Post by shandi76 on Feb 13, 2011 12:15:51 GMT -5
I completely agree with moneyjenny that ambition is about having a goal and being focused on that goal, and with dcmetrocrab that being able to retire at 40 is an ambitious goal.
I've never been very materialistic and value my time more than keeping up with the Joneses. A trophy house just means you have to work longer to pay for it, and it is more hassle to clean, and a trophy car is a waste of $ as it gets you from A to B exactly the same, but deprives you of investment funds.
My main ambition is autonomy, and I'm shooting for FI on a modest lifestyle rather than climbing the corporate ladder and aiming for an upper class lifestyle.
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formerexpat
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Post by formerexpat on Feb 13, 2011 12:27:28 GMT -5
Of course you can force it upon someone. Give them enough incentive [like the desire to live] and I'm sure there would be many more ambitious people in the US. The US makes it too easy to live a lifestyle better than 99% of the world on the tax payers dime simply by being born here in the US. Take that subsidization away and let people fail or succeed on their own, and I suspect more would be "ambitious" than are now. Make more people live like the Mexican's do [who live better than 70% of the rest of the world] and we'll quickly understand why most of them work so hard when they come to the US. We might even get natural born American's to work as hard in those same professions. I was told from a very young age by my parents that my life would only improve compared to theirs if I did well in school and went to college. I was also told that my parents wouldn't be able to help me with the costs associated with college, so if I wanted that better life, I'd better get my s*** together real quick in life and work hard to turn the life I wanted into a reality. My parents preached the importance of school and grounded me if I didn't do well in school but they didn't hold my hand through the process. It was on me to get good grades during the quarters / semesters . It was entirely on me to take the courses necessary to prepare me for college [i.e. AP Calc & Physics, 4 years of language, philosophy, psychology, etc].
Our compassion to help the weak is what sets humans apart from most other species. Our tendency to want to bring the strongest down to the level of the weaker / weakest will be our downfall. You can't reverse Darwinism without negative consequences. [/size]
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2011 12:56:29 GMT -5
formerexpat's post got me thinking, my Mom never pushed me when I was younger. I was very smart when I was younger, but she didn't check my grades or talk about college, and I only did well in classes that interested me. I wasn't prepared for the real world because nobody told me how it worked.
So maybe if when I was younger, I'd really understood what was within my reach, I would've been more driven to accomplish SOMETHING. Instead, I had kids young and just wanted to be able to take care of them. Now I'm just old and tired.
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daylight
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Post by daylight on Feb 13, 2011 15:34:32 GMT -5
I was a go-getter while in nappies. Whereas, my sister, who is supremely unconcerned with life, and pretty content with barely doing anything stated to me (in earnest) that she thinks she has lived another life, because she just does not seem to have any ambition or drive at all. (Except having money for cigarettes, cable and DVDs.) We had the same parents, were given the same advice and are 17 months apart. Go figure. If she is pushed into anything, she just does not do it/throws up/faints/sits down and stops moving, you name it.
But I'd also second good role models. I had excellent teachers and she was just plain unlucky from grade school on. The family role models were the same though.
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formerexpat
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Post by formerexpat on Feb 13, 2011 16:02:38 GMT -5
daylight - you guys were raised the same? Are you older or younger?
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daylight
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Post by daylight on Feb 13, 2011 16:11:12 GMT -5
Raised the same. I'm older, but i think you would have been really surprised if I said younger. Older kids usually are more ambitious. Maybe they think they have to prove themselves to their parents when the younger siblings come along and if they are really good, mom and dad would love only them again.
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daylight
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Post by daylight on Feb 13, 2011 16:16:50 GMT -5
What really cracked me up was her saying that she must have lived another life already, that's why her main focus is cigarettes, watching cable ("Big Brother is so psychologically interesting" - huh?), DVDs, and her looks. But she is not even ambitious in her looks even though she is a bit vain. Walking three floors is sports to her. She is fun.=) All in all, nature simply must have a say in it.
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formerexpat
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Post by formerexpat on Feb 13, 2011 16:43:29 GMT -5
I think older children are usually more ambitious because parents do a better job at parenting the first one, setting expectations higher than they do with the subsequent children. I never had to prove anything to my parents. I knew the loved me unconditionally. I just knew they weren't going to support a lifestyle I thought I deserved and that if I wanted a better life, I needed to get my a** in gear.
By the time the baby / youngest comes along, they generally don't have to lift a finger around the house, don't have to do well in school, stick to the rules of the house, etc, etc. Parents are tired from having to be parents to their previous children.
Those that go against the grain of this are generally have their head on straight as adults.
I'm more surprised that you say the two of you were raised the same, with the same expectations and your parents being equally harsh [or maybe lenient?] with both of you.
That's contrary to my observations. [/size]
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daylight
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Post by daylight on Feb 13, 2011 17:05:16 GMT -5
Expat - right, I was not sure how deep an answer you wanted. Your observations absolutely reflect mine. The expectations were the same (or seemed to me the same) in the beginning...but the moment she did not meet them, it was okay not to meet them. The deeper she went the more okay it was, lest they should do some serious parenting. And she wouldn't get hurt by those unreal expectations, either, poor thing. My parents also wanted only two kids, so she did grow up as the baby of the family. I really have a tough time wording this post, but I hope you get the gist of the situation. She is also getting herself into a financial trainwreck situation (sort of), but I just love her too much to post about that...for the moment. My observations above do not so much reflect my own feelings growing up, I guess, but I've seen some seriously troubled kids while volunteering in school.
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Feb 13, 2011 17:21:45 GMT -5
When I was growing up, wanting to start your life wasn't with the intention of "becoming a millionaire". You went to school, then some of us went to college. Most of us were just looking to do a job we would like with the goal of being able to live a modest life and support ourselves. To go to college, get married, buy a small home, have a family and live life. Nowadays, if you aren't "cutting edge" or always pushing, pushing, pushing, you are not "ambitious". That is no longer enough. In fact, you now have to look like you are still 20 when you are 50, you have to hit the gym 3x a week, have botox, get rolled, spun and polished. You have to continually be pushing the envelope and go, go, go or you are just a useless, lazy person. absolutely. I'm 32, and there's no way I could ever fund a lifestyle like what I grew up with unless I went to college. neither of my parents went, in fact Dad didn't finish his trade HS time. you used to be able to live a decent middle-class life without higher education, now that's just another thing on the list of things to be on the cutting edge of. where I live, a BS/BA has become what a HS diploma was just a generation ago. I think I'm the only one of my college friends that hasn't gone on for a graduate degree, and if I end up doing the career change to teaching (been pondering for a while, may change pending other things) then this will change too. I like the posters that strive for "enough" in their lives. seems to me that a lot of people out there that bust their butts for everything and anything still don't have enough. will they ever?
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busymom
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Post by busymom on Feb 13, 2011 17:50:04 GMT -5
I'm the youngest in my family, but I've got the most ambition. (And guess who is most likely to get a telephone call if someone needs help or advice-me!) But, I have heard the generalization the the oldest children usually do better. But, in my group of friends, a lot of us ambitious ones were the youngest. Maybe we do it to get more attention/approval from Mom and Dad?!
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cronewitch
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Post by cronewitch on Feb 13, 2011 18:16:57 GMT -5
My parents had no ambition for us kids except we grow up leave home and support ourselves. They fully expected me to be a housewife and the boys to get jobs. The boys went in the services and I got married, none of us wanted much or had much the first 20 years. Oldest did 20 years air force had 8 kids no home or anything to show for the years. He never had much of anything, managed to buy a really old house in a cheap area but never did anything to improve his life or give his children anything. His wife kicked him out and he moved home until he was 60 paying no rent doing nothing but work as a waiter, now motel manager. Youngest did 9 years in the Navy but owned a home the last place he was stationed and had a wife and two kids when he quit and moved home. He bought a decent house and improved it, sold it and bought a better newer house and sold that and has a huge nice house. He has helped his kids and and retired to owning a business. I married young got a couple of years of college and was happy to just work a job except I wanted a house. I divorced and lost everything at 35 but that is when I got the least bit of ambision. I wanted to own a house and save for retirement. I considered living in that starter house forever and saving just enough to survive then living with no car and no excess money at all. I decided I wanted more and was willing to earn more, I did two more years of college and decided to work longer to have more.
I think much ambition comes from seeing that the added effort stands a good chance of paying off. Those who have parents who pay them to be losers have no reason to strive for more, it would dry up the handouts. The government takes ambition from people the same way if they strive they will lose the handouts so need to see the benefit or they won't try. Having a spouse who will spend it as fast as you can earn it will make you less willing to work harder, save your money so they can spend it. Taxing away the savings or extra earning can stop people too.
Watching the people around you unwilling to improve life might rub off. I have worked low paid jobs and coworkers made fun of me for even saying I wanted to go to college. They started calling me professor when I was an uneducated cleaning lady. When you are doing low paid work and everyone else is a lifer you make them feel bad if you want more.
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Post by debtheaven on Feb 13, 2011 19:23:12 GMT -5
By the time the baby / youngest comes along, they generally don't have to lift a finger around the house, don't have to do well in school, stick to the rules of the house, etc, etc. Parents are tired from having to be parents to their previous children.
I find this comment very interesting! On the face of it, I can definitely see why you'd say that. However, if that same "baby" comes along a bit later, the older kids might be partially out of the house by then. In which case the parents have more time for him / her. It can definitely work both ways ...
Kids have their own personalities, their own ambition, and their own "smarts". IMO sometimes the "smarter" one will have an easy time and get where he or she wants to go more on smarts than on hard work. Other times, the less smart kid will work harder. I think success is a combination of many things.
I also think that ambition is somewhat contagious. My DS1 and DS2 and DS3 are all very bright. DD, a senior in a vocational HS, has always had learning issues. She has probably worked harder than all three of her brothers together to get where she is today.
At her parent teacher conferences last week, I discussed getting her into a college that specializes in her field (hospitality). They asked me, astonished, she's willing to go for a three-year degree? (A Bachelor's here is three years). I said yes, given that her two older brothers have / are getting their Masters, she feels she's getting off easy.
LOL and all that, but one of her teachers recommended we go for a HS + 1 year certification instead. The three others said we were making the right decision. She's willing to try. If it doesn't work out, it doesn't work out. But why settle for less when the child is happy to try for more? Over the years, seeing her older brothers travel (something she LOVES to do) and get jobs easily with their chosen degrees, she finally feels, OK, maybe I can do this too, push myself in my chosen field. Also we've done our homework, our first choice is a three-year college where she would go to school first semester of every year, and do an internship second semester of every year.
Again, I'm sure that at least part of the reason she's willing to try for her Bachelors is that she feels she's getting off easy compared to her two older brothers (who were never pushed, their Masters degrees were totally of their own volition, they were also "no brainers".)
There are SO many things involved.
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Post by debtheaven on Feb 13, 2011 19:46:42 GMT -5
I have a good friend, literally every time one of her kids needed a definition, she'd call me and ask me to look it up. Every time she'd ask me what to get her kids for birthdays or Xmas, I'd tell her, get the family a dictionary and a board game, and go from there. She never did, she always only got DVDs and gadgets.
There is nothing wrong with DVDs and gadgets, but you need books and games and imagination too. To be ambitious, you need to dream for your child, and to teach your child to dream for himself / herself. You need to teach them that they can do anything they want (within their capabilities).
Personally I think kids today don't have enough "creative space" within their own heads.
I'll shut up now. This same friend calls me every few months telling me it's "not fair" that her DS1 is failing HS and her DS2 is failing MS, that she did everything she could for them.
The family still doesn't even own a dictionary.
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busymom
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Post by busymom on Feb 13, 2011 20:51:37 GMT -5
I remember a study awhile back that said if your kids had their own tv set in their bedroom, you were practically guaranteeing lower grades in school. My kids don't have their own tv sets, and are doing great in school. (They also don't have their own computers.) All tv watching & computer use is in the family area. I don't mind being a "mean Mom" if it helps my kids overall.
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Post by tea4me on Feb 14, 2011 10:37:01 GMT -5
I don't know if I am ambitious, but I know I have to work my arse off just to get by. I don't qualify for any government subsidies and my parents are not the type to help either. When I got good grades and high test scores in school my dad would always say "you are going to end up supporting everyone else." He was right. My parents were always hard workers and I grew up thinking that is what life is all about. My siblings are the same as me.
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