The Captain
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Post by The Captain on May 30, 2013 14:56:09 GMT -5
What upsets me about this case is that if the reported details are accurate, this man had no choice but to try to roll over onto his side. It was either roll over or die of asphyxiation. It takes more time to die from asphyxiation then it does to put on a pair of handcuffs. Now granted when you are panicking you probable will not be thinking "if I just lay still for one minute they can cuff me THEN I can roll over"In cases where a perpetrator is able to comply (for example, if police warn a man not to reach for his pockets but he nevertheless decides to reach for his cell phone), I have little sympathy for him. The solution to the problem is simple: comply with police. If you have to reach into your pocket to get your heart medication: don't; tell the arresting officer "Please, my heart medication is in my pocket. Can you have another officer take it out for me?" and expect (hope) that the officer will make a reasonable concession. In this case, we have a man with no choice. We have the family fervently appealing to police that he had no choice. And you will also have family fervently claiming their loved one is innocent, that they cooked them breakfast and ate with them when they were supposedly killing someone else etc. Sorry, this carries little weight with me...Yet the police make no reasonable concessions (and quite the opposite, shock him three times here we are in agreement), and ostensibly sentence him to death either way. Any time you run into a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation, there is a serious procedural problem. Under no circumstances should a perpetrator face lethal action by police contingent on compliance with a directive that it is impossible for him to comply with. Under no circumstance should an officer in a potentially dangerous situation have to second guess procedures. If they follow the procedures then they have amnesty. If the procedures don't work 100% of the time due to a medical condition it's sad, but sometimes there are unforseen consequences.
Hence if the arresting officers were operating within procedural bounds in this case, change the bloody procedures. HELL NO! No way should a procedure designed to ensure the safety of officers (and bystanders) in dangerous circumstances be altered to give criminals a better chance of taking someone out. Remember Afghanistan where the early policy was not to search women wearing Hijabs to show respect for the religion - what happened? The terrorists started using women to blow up our troops. We give fat people a buy from procedures and they will be the ones carrying guns whenever something may go down - in instances where a second may make a difference. Sorry, you want to run with the BIG dogs you gotta be prepared to pay the price. If they weren't operating within procedural bounds, they're guilty of negligent homicide. They sentenced an innocent man to death.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on May 30, 2013 14:59:47 GMT -5
That's a whole other topic of discussion. The odds definitely aren't "infinitesimal", although I do concede that tasers are classified as 'less than lethal' instruments.
If this was being tried as a negligent homicide case, the question is whether death is a reasonably foreseeable circumstance resulting from the tasing. When it comes to shocking a wheezing, 350-pound asthmatic three times, I would argue that yes, death is a reasonably foreseeable circumstance. It also seems to me that if police had time to get the man out of bed onto the ground and then shock him three times, the events transpired over at least a few minutes.
But as you say, we only have a limited set of accounts. As as I say, my questions pertain more to a hypothetical where we know police acted recklessly.
Then you've just sentenced asthmatics to death as a matter of procedure, and I don't accept that.
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2013 15:06:11 GMT -5
snowbird somehow I don't think your faith is going to be much comfort to the families of those that get killed until truth trumps misconduct.
btw were there any illegal drugs at the residence? Was this man a violent drug dealer type? This will strongly affect my opinion. My response to a violent man aggressively resisting being handcuffed will be different than my response to Joe Blow resisting.
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on May 30, 2013 15:10:25 GMT -5
Virgil "Hence if the arresting officers were operating within procedural bounds in this case, change the bloody procedures. If they weren't operating within procedural bounds, they're guilty of negligent homicide. They sentenced an innocent man to death" Fact will suffice after the investigation until then only two persons really knows what happened. Until then it's just "he says she says". I know, snowbird. I'm just wondering: even if the whole affair was caught on video in HD and bore out the witness accounts, what disciplinary action would be taken? A few weeks of administrative leave and a slap on the wrist? Or something more commensurate with the crime of manslaughter? If I'm an achronic asthmatic and police storm my house, am I a doomed man? Are we all expendable in that sense? Virgil - If it was caught on video and bore out witness accounts and it was proven procedure was not followed then yes, the officers should be charged with manslaughter. If you are a 350lb asthmatic involved in drug activities then you have gotta know you are a doomed man in one way or another...just saying.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on May 30, 2013 15:11:04 GMT -5
Fine. But you can't argue that they were dead women if they didn't wear hijabs.
Here we have a case where a man automatically forfeits his life if he complies with police. That's a fatal defect in police procedure. It means that a priori we know there are situations where it is better for police not to show up, and we acknowledge that.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on May 30, 2013 15:16:23 GMT -5
That's a whole other topic of discussion. The odds definitely aren't "infinitesimal", although I do concede that tasers are classified as 'less than lethal' instruments.
I didn't say the odds were infinitesimal. I said the deaths occuring in ratio to the times the taser is employed is probably infinitesimal. I could be wrong. I dont' have the access I need here at work to do the research.
If this was being tried as a negligent homicide case, the question is whether death is a reasonably foreseeable circumstance resulting from the tasing. When it comes to shocking a wheezing, 350-pound asthmatic three times, I would argue that yes, death is a reasonably foreseeable circumstance. It also seems to me that if police had time to get the man out of bed onto the ground and then shock him three times, the events transpired over at least a few minutes.
First of all, they didn't get him out of bed. They pulled him off the couch from a sitting position. Secondly, I'd guess the officers were not aware of his health problems and relatives screaming it out during the execution of a search warrant doesn't cut it. As stated before, I could tell you I can't breathe and shoot you 2 second later. Saying it doesn't make it true.
Then you've just sentenced asthmatics to death as a matter of procedure, and I don't accept that.
Nope. Not all asthmatics are going to die from being tased.
If I'm an achronic asthmatic and police storm my house, am I a doomed man? Are we all expendable in that sense?
Good question. But I'd say you severly limit your chances of having your house stormed and you being tased by not being a drug dealer.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on May 30, 2013 15:25:15 GMT -5
Where do we get the information the victim was wheezing prior to being tazed? I didn't see that, Virgil.
Additionally, if the man was, indeed, tazed three times, an investigation will show it. We've yet to see any indication he was actually tazed three times.
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on May 30, 2013 15:25:31 GMT -5
Actually no, I'm asthmatic and can lie on my stomach. It's only when you put extreme obesity on top of that then it becomes a problem.
Also to take it a step farther, extreme emotional situations aggravate asthma. Anyone who's lived with the condition for any period of time is aware of this and, if they are serious about managing their condition, have learned emotional control to some level. That same emotional control could be used to keep themselves calm long enough for the police to cuff them and allow them to roll on their side.
At some point the individual has to accept some responsibility for the risk they choose to place themselves in.
Demanding that the police accept additional risk because there is a small chance that an asthmatic episode can happen to an extremely obese person with prior criminal activity is something I don't accept.
BTW - my answers would be different if this individual did not have priors.
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Post by mmhmm on May 30, 2013 15:29:19 GMT -5
Fine. But you can't argue that they were dead women if they didn't wear hijabs. Here we have a case where a man automatically forfeits his life if he complies with police. That's a fatal defect in police procedure. It means that a priori we know there are situations where it is better for police not to show up, and we acknowledge that. No, the man would not automatically forfeit his life if he complied with police. If the man had simply gotten on his stomach long enough for the police to handcuff him, it's very, very, VERY unlikely he'd have died. If he was that close to death due to his condition, he'd have been in the hospital, not on the couch. In short, if he'd done what he was told when he was told to do so, he'd not have been tazed and this whole thing wouldn't have happened. That fits the scenario offered just as well as anything else might, Virgil.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on May 30, 2013 15:31:02 GMT -5
It's a very messy subject.
The answer changes drastically depending on how tightly you constrain "cause death". With a looser definition that includes medical complications that occur up to a few hours after tasing, the mortality rate is about 25-in-1000 (0.25%).
If you instead attribute deaths to "excited delirium"--which is the fact that criminals are often arrested in situations of extreme stress, fatigue, drug influence, etc. and can die unexpectedly for a lot of reasons--the morality rate due to "tasers" drops to around 1-in-1000. Police justify their use because evidently clubbing, manhandling, and other less-than-lethal options are more lethal overall (although many groups dispute this).
I'm not saying that tasers shouldn't be used, but there have got to be procedural exceptions for wheezing, 350-pound men.
I don't know the exact interval of time between taser applications, but I do know that police have to wait a reasonable amount of time between shocking a man and repeatedly issue instructions between applications. Even if that took as little as 15 seconds per shock, you'd think that 45 seconds of family screaming might register with police.
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Post by Virgil Showlion on May 30, 2013 15:33:44 GMT -5
He's hauled off the couch in the middle of the night by police, and he can't breathe. I hope you'll forgive him if he was panicking, trying to breathe.
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Post by djAdvocate on May 30, 2013 15:35:32 GMT -5
That's a nice idea in principle but really scary in the real world. If I know that a man has attacked women even though it hasn't been legally proven, I'm an idiot if I engage him the same way I do most people. In this case the police would have knowledge of the man's history even though it hasn't been proven yet. we don't know anything of the kind.
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Post by djAdvocate on May 30, 2013 15:37:06 GMT -5
DJ - the sleeping guy could have been pretending to be asleep while reaching for a weapon under the cushions. maybe so, but i am taking the police account at face value.This was a drug bust, right? Drugs and guns usually go hand in hand. so do police. with tragic results, in this case.Or do you think no one ever tries to pull a fast one? i should probably stay out of this argument, given my position on Drug Wars.
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Post by workpublic on May 30, 2013 15:37:43 GMT -5
The whole system breaks down if people don't trust the police to be beholden to a reasonable standard of judgment, with meaningful penalties for criminal negligence in the line of duty. end the lost cause "war on drugs" and a lot of these things go away. there'll even be room in prison for fraudulent politicians and businesspeople. you know the mass criminals who do by far the most damage to society.
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Post by djAdvocate on May 30, 2013 15:38:36 GMT -5
mmhmm, Only two persons knows what really happened. Cop and perpetrator. given the fact that we can no longer collect facts from one of those two, the truth will likely NEVER be known.
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2013 15:39:45 GMT -5
Virgil "Hence if the arresting officers were operating within procedural bounds in this case, change the bloody procedures. If they weren't operating within procedural bounds, they're guilty of negligent homicide. They sentenced an innocent man to death" Fact will suffice after the investigation until then only two persons really knows what happened. Until then it's just "he says she says". I know, snowbird. I'm just wondering: even if the whole affair was caught on video in HD and bore out the witness accounts, what disciplinary action would be taken? A few weeks of administrative leave and a slap on the wrist? Or something more commensurate with the crime of manslaughter? If I'm an achronic asthmatic and police storm my house, am I a doomed man? Are we all expendable in that sense? if you are a chronic asthmatic, maybe you should have chosen a different line of work other than drug dealer? i know it has happened, but usually police dont knock down doors executing search warrants on most people i am not saying everything the police did was right....but based on what i have garnered so far, this was a tragic accident i dont see culpability at this point....but that may change as more of the story becomes available
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Post by djAdvocate on May 30, 2013 15:40:30 GMT -5
I don't understand the police judgment in this case. You have a morbidly obese man trying to roll over onto his side, with his family pleading that he's an asthmatic and he can't breathe. Hence for repeatedly electrocuting the man (which is what tasing is) to be justifiable, we have to accept that one (or several) officers legitimately believed that having him lying on his side rather than lying prone presented an unacceptable threat. I just don't see that as reasonable. Certainly if they're worried he might have access to a weapon, get him to lie down on his side somewhere in the open with his hands in plain view. But repeatedly shocking him as he's struggling for life? That's negligent homicide, I'm sorry. It is an unreasonable and unlawful application of force, and it killed him. It doesn't even border on the "justifiable in the face of a threat" gray area. You won't convince me that the threat posed by a handcuffed 350-pound man lying sidelong exceeds the threat he poses while lying prone so greatly that it obviates all other concerns--up to and including his life, in this case.. i can't imagine a position that is LESS different than my own. well put, Virgil.
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Post by djAdvocate on May 30, 2013 15:42:31 GMT -5
I know, snowbird. I'm just wondering: even if the whole affair was caught on video in HD and bore out the witness accounts, what disciplinary action would be taken? A few weeks of administrative leave and a slap on the wrist? Or something more commensurate with the crime of manslaughter? If I'm an achronic asthmatic and police storm my house, am I a doomed man? Are we all expendable in that sense? if you are a chronic asthmatic, maybe you should have chosen a different line of work other than drug dealer? yeah, because we all know so many professions that are great for someone in poor health- like swimming instructor and policeman, right? whew. i hate it when discussions head this direction.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on May 30, 2013 15:43:15 GMT -5
He's hauled off the couch in the middle of the night by police, and he can't breathe. I hope you'll forgive him if he was panicking, trying to breathe. I don't have to forgive him, Virgil. I had nothing to do with this. I'm simply noting a possibility that stands as strongly as your possibility. Had the man cooperated, he'd probably still be alive. As it is, he's not.
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Post by djAdvocate on May 30, 2013 15:44:26 GMT -5
He's hauled off the couch in the middle of the night by police, and he can't breathe. I hope you'll forgive him if he was panicking, trying to breathe. I don't have to forgive him, Virgil. I had nothing to do with this. I'm simply noting a possibility that stands as strongly as your possibility. Had the man cooperated, he'd probably still be alive. As it is, he's not. any evidence that this is true, or are you engaging in conjecture?
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Post by Virgil Showlion on May 30, 2013 15:45:35 GMT -5
I don't think he was even a drug dealer. The question is whether he had cocaine in his possession, which isn't known. Drug dealing isn't mentioned anywhere. Maybe I'm just naive.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on May 30, 2013 15:47:28 GMT -5
I don't disagree at all that penalities should be assessed should those officers be found guilty of misconduct. But for all we know right now, the guy chould have had cocaine raging in his bloodstream, which might have contributed to his death. I'm just not willing to point my finger and say, "BAD policeman" until I know for sure. I do know that they are bad police officers. I just don't know that this particular officer was one of them.
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Post by mmhmm on May 30, 2013 15:48:44 GMT -5
There's no evidence any of it is true, dj. That's why I used the word "probably".
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Post by Virgil Showlion on May 30, 2013 15:54:31 GMT -5
He's hauled off the couch in the middle of the night by police, and he can't breathe. I hope you'll forgive him if he was panicking, trying to breathe. I don't have to forgive him, Virgil. I had nothing to do with this. I'm simply noting a possibility that stands as strongly as your possibility. Had the man cooperated, he'd probably still be alive. As it is, he's not. Fine. I can accept that. And the panicking swimmer in the riptide would probably still be alive if he didn't try to wrap his arms around the lifeguard's head. It seems to me the lifeguard needs to be procedurally able to handle panicky people, and that if the swimmer drowns, we don't cluck our tongues and wonder why he didn't just go limp and let the lifeguard do his job. My only contention in this thread is that the victim had no choice. If you want to argue that he and the panicking swimmer have a choice, that's where we disagree. To me, "choice" precludes situations where higher brain function is shut down, which is precisely what happens when people go into a panic.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on May 30, 2013 15:54:54 GMT -5
LOL!! This entire thread is conjecture. The only thing we know for sure is that somebody is dead. It's just as reasonable, at this point, to assume that he'd still be alive if he obeyed police directives as it is to assume he's dead because of police misconduct.
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2013 15:55:20 GMT -5
mmhmm, Only two persons knows what really happened. Cop and perpetrator. given the fact that we can no longer collect facts from one of those two, the truth will likely NEVER be known. So what are you saying, dj. You are saying whole system is corrupt. I was using that sentence as figure speech. And it's truth in a sense.
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Post by mmhmm on May 30, 2013 15:55:56 GMT -5
He's hauled off the couch in the middle of the night by police, and he can't breathe. I hope you'll forgive him if he was panicking, trying to breathe. There is nothing, even in the family's reports, to indicate that was the case, Virgil. The family stated he couldn't lie on his stomach because he couldn't breathe that way. The family didn't state he was unable to breathe while he was being hauled off the couch. Did he panic? I don't know, and neither do you? What he didn't do was comply with the officers' orders. I've had asthmatics in the hospital who have trouble breathing in supine or prone positions. Sometimes, one of our procedures will require one of those positions. The patient needs to cooperate while the procedure is being performed and they can do so. They don't just automatically get up on their elbows and die.
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2013 15:55:57 GMT -5
dj
we all know you want the government to legalize all drugs
but they are illegal at this time
this was a dealer....the police executed a signed warrant
they pulled him for his chair/couch onto the floor, and were trying to cuff him
he was having trouble breathing...so he was struggling
easy to see that as an armchair quarterback....maybe not so easy if you are one of the cops that just kicked in a door
he wouldnt stop struggling...so they tasered him
if they are like most officers, they were trying to control the scene (and a 350 lb man not secured is NOT a controlled scene)
there could have been weapons hiding in the chair/couch...no way to know at that point
first priority is safety for officers....
most of this is conjecture...based on what we have.....
some is common knowledge of police procedures all over the country....
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on May 30, 2013 15:57:06 GMT -5
I don't think he was even a drug dealer. The question is whether he had cocaine in his possession, which isn't known. Drug dealing isn't mentioned anywhere. Maybe I'm just naive. No. It isn't mentioned anywhere, Virgil. You are right. I'm just going by my VAST experience with search warrants. They aren't usually issued for those engaging in recreational drug use but rather to get the big guys. So yes. It is a guess....but a very educated one. I could be wrong. It won't be the first time.
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Post by mmhmm on May 30, 2013 15:58:43 GMT -5
LOL, GEL! No kidding! We don't have a clue what actually happened here. I don't know why I'm even posting, really. I've always found conjecture for the purpose of hyperbole to be a waste of time.
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