The Captain
Junior Associate
Hugs are good...
Joined: Jan 4, 2011 16:21:23 GMT -5
Posts: 8,717
Location: State of confusion
Favorite Drink: Whinnnne
|
Post by The Captain on May 23, 2013 18:05:35 GMT -5
@shooby - what exactly is meant by "no man cometh unto the Father, but by me" That in order to approach the Father, you need the Son. Yes, but in what way? One possible interpretation is the Son's sacrifice is what opened up the approach to the Father as opposed to a belief in the Son is what opens up the approach.
|
|
mmhmm
Administrator
It's a great pity the right of free speech isn't based on the obligation to say something sensible.
Joined: Dec 25, 2010 18:13:34 GMT -5
Posts: 31,770
Today's Mood: Saddened by Events
Location: Memory Lane
Favorite Drink: Water
|
Post by mmhmm on May 23, 2013 18:12:44 GMT -5
According to the Pope's words, he believes all are welcome into God's arms. That would include Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims, agnostics, atheists, and anyone else who lived a life in which he/she did good deeds and cared about others. All the Pope did was state his beliefs. In doing so, he embraced all people, regardless of their beliefs. He didn't challenge anyone, and he didn't denigrate anyone. He simply voiced his love for humanity and his belief that God loves all of humanity, too. IMO, he's quite a guy, this Pope Francis.
|
|
Virgil Showlion
Distinguished Associate
Moderator
[b]leones potest resistere[/b]
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 15:19:33 GMT -5
Posts: 27,448
|
Post by Virgil Showlion on May 23, 2013 18:26:54 GMT -5
According to the Pope's words, he believes all are welcome into God's arms. That would include Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims, agnostics, atheists, and anyone else who lived a life in which he/she did good deeds and cared about others. All the Pope did was state his beliefs. In doing so, he embraced all people, regardless of their beliefs. He didn't challenge anyone, and he didn't denigrate anyone. He simply voiced his love for humanity and his belief that God loves all of humanity, too. IMO, he's quite a guy, this Pope Francis. And here I saw it as an acknowledgement that non-Christians can perform good deeds. Furthermore, there seem to be some creative definitions of 'redeemed' in this thread.
|
|
Robert not Bobby
Well-Known Member
Joined: Jan 29, 2013 17:45:55 GMT -5
Posts: 1,392
|
Post by Robert not Bobby on May 23, 2013 18:33:29 GMT -5
I like Pope Francis…from what I’ve read he seems like a nice guy, with his heart in the right place (right, left...you know what I mean).
It’s good to know that some of us skeptics won’t burn in hellfire for eternity. LOL
I will sleep more soundly tonight.
|
|
mmhmm
Administrator
It's a great pity the right of free speech isn't based on the obligation to say something sensible.
Joined: Dec 25, 2010 18:13:34 GMT -5
Posts: 31,770
Today's Mood: Saddened by Events
Location: Memory Lane
Favorite Drink: Water
|
Post by mmhmm on May 23, 2013 18:52:41 GMT -5
According to the Pope's words, he believes all are welcome into God's arms. That would include Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims, agnostics, atheists, and anyone else who lived a life in which he/she did good deeds and cared about others. All the Pope did was state his beliefs. In doing so, he embraced all people, regardless of their beliefs. He didn't challenge anyone, and he didn't denigrate anyone. He simply voiced his love for humanity and his belief that God loves all of humanity, too. IMO, he's quite a guy, this Pope Francis. And here I saw it as an acknowledgement that non-Christians can perform good deeds. Furthermore, there seem to be some creative definitions of 'redeemed' in this thread. Of course Christians and non-Christians can perform good deeds. The Pope didn't need to acknowledge that. What he did was state his belief that it's true and point out it's not the right thing to do to deny the good deeds performed by others who don't believe as you do. At least, that's how I took his words. As to definitions of redeemed, I'll go with the Pope's: "The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! ‘Father, the atheists?’ Even the atheists. Everyone! And this Blood makes us children of God of the first class! We are created children in the likeness of God and the Blood of Christ has redeemed us all!"
|
|
Robert not Bobby
Well-Known Member
Joined: Jan 29, 2013 17:45:55 GMT -5
Posts: 1,392
|
Post by Robert not Bobby on May 23, 2013 19:00:31 GMT -5
God is love! It will cure all the ills. Snowbird, I like you, but that is so sweet and slightly naive. You know what god could do for me now: all new electrical in my rental property...without charging me and having to deal with these crazy, but very clean, female tenants. I would thank GOD! Hey, if you are a believer, that is cool. I would never make fun of that. Obviously, there is something bigger than our own individual, often times slightly absurd and relatively insignificant, small lives...but maybe not? Believe in yourself...nothing will cure all the ills of the world (I'm still trying to figure out what they all are...there are so many). But if you take one small step in that direction, it will be easier for others to follow and make a combined difference. Buona Notte, Bon Nuit, and annyeonghi jumuseyo. Oh Yeah, and good night.
|
|
Virgil Showlion
Distinguished Associate
Moderator
[b]leones potest resistere[/b]
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 15:19:33 GMT -5
Posts: 27,448
|
Post by Virgil Showlion on May 23, 2013 19:07:22 GMT -5
The term 'redeemed' here is speaking to the concept of justification, which is something that even few Christians understand well. The Archbishop would appear to be no exception.
That's how I took his words too. Where you get "According to the Pope's words, he believes all are welcome into God's arms. That would include Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims, agnostics, atheists, and anyone else who lived a life in which he/she did good deeds and cared about others." from that, I don't know.
|
|
❤ mollymouser ❤
Senior Associate
Sarcasm is my Superpower
Crazy Cat Lady
Joined: Dec 18, 2010 16:09:58 GMT -5
Posts: 12,857
Today's Mood: Gen X ... so I'm sarcastic and annoyed
Location: Central California
Favorite Drink: Diet Mountain Dew
|
Post by ❤ mollymouser ❤ on May 23, 2013 21:04:33 GMT -5
Ahhhh .... the age-old debate of unlimited atonement v. limited atonement. Did Jesus die for everyone, or just the Elect? Was the ransom (redemption) just for some, or for all? In Catholicism, redemption is collective. Christ died for the world. Salvation is individual, and requires grace through faith. (Though many Protestants consider redemption and salvation to be the same, though.)
|
|
mmhmm
Administrator
It's a great pity the right of free speech isn't based on the obligation to say something sensible.
Joined: Dec 25, 2010 18:13:34 GMT -5
Posts: 31,770
Today's Mood: Saddened by Events
Location: Memory Lane
Favorite Drink: Water
|
Post by mmhmm on May 23, 2013 21:06:23 GMT -5
The term 'redeemed' here is speaking to the concept of justification, which is something that even few Christians understand well. The Archbishop would appear to be no exception. That's how I took his words too. Where you get "According to the Pope's words, he believes all are welcome into God's arms. That would include Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims, agnostics, atheists, and anyone else who lived a life in which he/she did good deeds and cared about others." from that, I don't know. Oh! But, of course, Virgil. You can define redeemed for the Archbishop, since he doesn't seem to know what he's talking about, according to you. Yeah. That'll do it right fine, won't it? Not to worry, though. I'm sure, when all those unworthy heathens start cluttering up YOUR heaven, God will be kind enough to give you a little corner all to yourself so you don't have to see them, or be contaminated by their gross ignorance. He'll make sure you can still feel better than everyone else. In the meantime ... you go, Pope Francis! I read your words and took them to heart. You're someone I'd really like to sit down over a cuppa with, and I don't say that easily.
|
|
Shooby
Senior Associate
Joined: Jan 17, 2013 0:32:36 GMT -5
Posts: 14,782
Mini-Profile Name Color: 1cf04f
|
Post by Shooby on May 24, 2013 6:11:34 GMT -5
So, when the Catholic Church says something people like, then it is the Gospel truth but if when they say something people don't like then it isn't. LOL!
|
|
Shooby
Senior Associate
Joined: Jan 17, 2013 0:32:36 GMT -5
Posts: 14,782
Mini-Profile Name Color: 1cf04f
|
Post by Shooby on May 24, 2013 6:12:57 GMT -5
Ahhhh .... the age-old debate of unlimited atonement v. limited atonement. Did Jesus die for everyone, or just the Elect? Was the ransom (redemption) just for some, or for all? In Catholicism, redemption is collective. Christ died for the world. Salvation is individual, and requires grace through faith. (Though many Protestants consider redemption and salvation to be the same, though.) Christ did die for the whole world. But according to the Bible there is a caveat that requires the individual to BELIEVE in Him. I think that is pretty clear.
|
|
The Captain
Junior Associate
Hugs are good...
Joined: Jan 4, 2011 16:21:23 GMT -5
Posts: 8,717
Location: State of confusion
Favorite Drink: Whinnnne
|
Post by The Captain on May 24, 2013 6:35:53 GMT -5
So, when the Catholic Church says something people like, then it is the Gospel truth but if when they say something people don't like then it isn't. LOL! Well Shooby, I'm just a simple layperson. However when I look at the Catholic Church over the ages I see it as something that gains in wisdom and evolves over time. There are man made (as opposed to divinely inspired) predjudices and pre-conceptions built into a lot of the dogma, which after all comes from man (an imperfect creature at best). Yes there are positions in the Church with which I don't agree. I follow my conscience and figure that if I'm wrong then I'll have to account for myself when I meet my maker. However if my conscience tells me something is wrong and I choose to do what I considered wrong (such as follow bad dogma), then in my mind I'm committing a sin and will have to account for that as well. I know I'm not explaining this well but it's the best I've got.
|
|
Shooby
Senior Associate
Joined: Jan 17, 2013 0:32:36 GMT -5
Posts: 14,782
Mini-Profile Name Color: 1cf04f
|
Post by Shooby on May 24, 2013 6:44:29 GMT -5
Well, what i am saying is that interpreting the Pope's comments to say that he is saying that atheists are going to Heaven as atheists, well sorry, i think that is a total misinterpretation of what he is saying and the beliefs of the Catholic Church and just taking those brief comments in that manner is completely missing it.
|
|
The Captain
Junior Associate
Hugs are good...
Joined: Jan 4, 2011 16:21:23 GMT -5
Posts: 8,717
Location: State of confusion
Favorite Drink: Whinnnne
|
Post by The Captain on May 24, 2013 7:07:00 GMT -5
Well, what i am saying is that interpreting the Pope's comments to say that he is saying that atheists are going to Heaven as atheists, well sorry, i think that is a total misinterpretation of what he is saying and the beliefs of the Catholic Church and just taking those brief comments in that manner is completely missing it. So is your issue that there will be Atheists in Heaven? I think once they get there that little issue will be resolved Or do you believe it is impossible for an Atheist to be redeemed? I'm not I understand what we are discussing...
|
|
mrsdutt
Senior Member
Joined: Mar 12, 2012 7:39:38 GMT -5
Posts: 2,097
|
Post by mrsdutt on May 24, 2013 7:28:23 GMT -5
God is love! It will cure all the ills. Snowbird, I like you, but that is so sweet and slightly naive. You know what god could do for me now: all new electrical in my rental property...without charging me and having to deal with these crazy, but very clean, female tenants. I would thank GOD! Hey, if you are a believer, that is cool. I would never make fun of that. Obviously, there is something bigger than our own individual, often times slightly absurd and relatively insignificant, small lives...but maybe not? Believe in yourself...nothing will cure all the ills of the world (I'm still trying to figure out what they all are...there are so many). But if you take one small step in that direction, it will be easier for others to follow and make a combined difference. Buona Notte, Bon Nuit, and annyeonghi jumuseyo. Oh Yeah, and good night. LOL, ROBERT. God's not a magician to call upon when we don't want to face something. Just like any good parent would do - let you grow through slight adversity.
|
|
mrsdutt
Senior Member
Joined: Mar 12, 2012 7:39:38 GMT -5
Posts: 2,097
|
Post by mrsdutt on May 24, 2013 7:42:27 GMT -5
Well, what i am saying is that interpreting the Pope's comments to say that he is saying that atheists are going to Heaven as atheists, well sorry, i think that is a total misinterpretation of what he is saying and the beliefs of the Catholic Church and just taking those brief comments in that manner is completely missing it. So is your issue that there will be Atheists in Heaven? I think once they get there that little issue will be resolved Or do you believe it is impossible for an Atheist to be redeemed? I'm not I understand what we are discussing... It's my understanding that the criteria in heaven is a bit different than it is here. There is a deeper understanding and awareness in the spiritual relm than the physical. No one will care what your life was here. So if SHOB ( ) gets there she won't care if someone was an athiest. It's also my understanding that we are judged on our knowledge. If someone in the deepest part of the jungle never heard of Christ, but lived an unselfish life, then he is judged on what he knew and/or did. It's also my understanding that even though there is one criteria to gain entrance to heaven, it is NOT our place to judge or decide. Also there is currently so much misinformation, I have read that the perameters are widened in this day and age. ( In a Catholic book) Who knows? I do know there is only one judge. I'm good with that.
|
|
Shooby
Senior Associate
Joined: Jan 17, 2013 0:32:36 GMT -5
Posts: 14,782
Mini-Profile Name Color: 1cf04f
|
Post by Shooby on May 24, 2013 7:59:26 GMT -5
Well, what i am saying is that interpreting the Pope's comments to say that he is saying that atheists are going to Heaven as atheists, well sorry, i think that is a total misinterpretation of what he is saying and the beliefs of the Catholic Church and just taking those brief comments in that manner is completely missing it. So is your issue that there will be Atheists in Heaven? I think once they get there that little issue will be resolved Or do you believe it is impossible for an Atheist to be redeemed? I'm not I understand what we are discussing... I am saying that based on Catholic Doctrine and Orthodox Christianity, you do not go to Heaven until or unless you believe and accept the Son.
|
|
resolution
Junior Associate
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 13:09:56 GMT -5
Posts: 6,964
Mini-Profile Name Color: 305b2b
|
Post by resolution on May 24, 2013 8:48:33 GMT -5
It is my understanding this isn't a new Catholic teaching but has been around a long time and brought up by a number of popes. I don't have a lot of time to go researching in the Catechism today but hopefully over the weekend I can come up with some references.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Apr 18, 2024 19:55:23 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 24, 2013 9:17:59 GMT -5
So, when the Catholic Church says something people like, then it is the Gospel truth but if when they say something people don't like then it isn't. LOL! Yes. If you aren't Catholic or you do not subscribe to papal infallibility, then you can basically pick and choose. The stuff you agree with is true, the stuff you don't agree with is wrong. If you are a Catholic that submits to papal authority, then what the Pope says is true is true, what the Pope says is false is false.
|
|
Virgil Showlion
Distinguished Associate
Moderator
[b]leones potest resistere[/b]
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 15:19:33 GMT -5
Posts: 27,448
|
Post by Virgil Showlion on May 24, 2013 9:21:34 GMT -5
The term 'redeemed' here is speaking to the concept of justification, which is something that even few Christians understand well. The Archbishop would appear to be no exception. That's how I took his words too. Where you get "According to the Pope's words, he believes all are welcome into God's arms. That would include Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims, agnostics, atheists, and anyone else who lived a life in which he/she did good deeds and cared about others." from that, I don't know. Oh! But, of course, Virgil. You can define redeemed for the Archbishop, since he doesn't seem to know what he's talking about, according to you. Yeah. That'll do it right fine, won't it? Not to worry, though. I'm sure, when all those unworthy heathens start cluttering up YOUR heaven, God will be kind enough to give you a little corner all to yourself so you don't have to see them, or be contaminated by their gross ignorance. He'll make sure you can still feel better than everyone else. In the meantime ... you go, Pope Francis! I read your words and took them to heart. You're someone I'd really like to sit down over a cuppa with, and I don't say that easily. Truth is truth, mmhmm. God's Word, the Bible, is truth. It is singular. Any doctrine inconsistent with scripture is not the truth. A Christian should be foremost concerned with seeking out and discerning the truth. It isn't an exercise in trying to conform doctrine to our personal worldview, or finding a religious leader we can "sit down over a cuppa with". Whether a minister or priest is personable means nothing unless he preaches truth. If you take that away, you have nothing. The subject of justification and Christ's sacrifice are detailed topics expounded over hundreds of scriptures. They form a consistent, detailed truth. The truth must be fully doctrinally consistent, not based on a handful of verses in scripture (ofen presented out of context). Accuse me of self-righteousness if you want, but if the Archbishop makes no scriptural case for his claims (which isn't possible in a short homily) and his words aren't doctrinally consistent, then he's preaching in vain. If you and I want to find some common ground, it's that the Bible clearly acknowledges that men who do not know and/or follow Christ can do good to their fellow man, and that Christians certainly should not resent their good acts. That much we can agree on. The rest of your analysis is something you've tacked on based on your own reasoning and worldview, and not only is it inconsistent with scripture, I don't even see it as a logical interpretation of what the Archbishop is saying. Unless you believe he'd endorse the statement "Do whatever the heck you like on Sunday. Pray at a phallic shrine in India. Attend a meeting with your local Pastafarians. Or attend services in a Catholic church. It's all good."
|
|
resolution
Junior Associate
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 13:09:56 GMT -5
Posts: 6,964
Mini-Profile Name Color: 305b2b
|
Post by resolution on May 24, 2013 9:26:38 GMT -5
So, when the Catholic Church says something people like, then it is the Gospel truth but if when they say something people don't like then it isn't. LOL! Yes. If you aren't Catholic or you do not subscribe to papal infallibility, then you can basically pick and choose. The stuff you agree with is true, the stuff you don't agree with is wrong. If you are a Catholic that submits to papal authority, then what the Pope says is true is true, what the Pope says is false is false. Just to clarify, it is not considered infallible every time that the pope speaks or preaches. There is a specific criteria that the statement has to meet and has happened less than 10 times in the 2000 year history of the church. His message in this sermon wouldn't be considered an infallible statement.
|
|
mmhmm
Administrator
It's a great pity the right of free speech isn't based on the obligation to say something sensible.
Joined: Dec 25, 2010 18:13:34 GMT -5
Posts: 31,770
Today's Mood: Saddened by Events
Location: Memory Lane
Favorite Drink: Water
|
Post by mmhmm on May 24, 2013 9:30:55 GMT -5
So, when the Catholic Church says something people like, then it is the Gospel truth but if when they say something people don't like then it isn't. LOL! Where did anyone say anything about the "Gospel truth", shooby? I've seen people express agreement, and appreciation for what the Pope said. I haven't seen one person claim it was the "Gospel truth".
|
|
mmhmm
Administrator
It's a great pity the right of free speech isn't based on the obligation to say something sensible.
Joined: Dec 25, 2010 18:13:34 GMT -5
Posts: 31,770
Today's Mood: Saddened by Events
Location: Memory Lane
Favorite Drink: Water
|
Post by mmhmm on May 24, 2013 9:32:54 GMT -5
For you, perhaps, Virgil. For me, and for many, not so much. The Pope speaks to many, and his words were not in vain to my ears. I heard him, loud and clear, and I appreciate those words and the heart behind them. YMMV.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Apr 18, 2024 19:55:23 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 24, 2013 9:37:27 GMT -5
|
|
Virgil Showlion
Distinguished Associate
Moderator
[b]leones potest resistere[/b]
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 15:19:33 GMT -5
Posts: 27,448
|
Post by Virgil Showlion on May 24, 2013 9:47:55 GMT -5
When I say 'in vain', I mean 'to no good effect'. In the same way that Mr. Alex Jones preaches in vain. He often disseminates lies and half-truths that cause more problems than they solve. Regarding spiritual truth, I'm reminded of the following two verses about standards: "To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them." - Isaiah 8:20 "He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." - 1 John 2:4 Yeah. Why is it so difficult to use the words "I believe Virgil Songbird" (or Shooby or snowbird)?
|
|
mmhmm
Administrator
It's a great pity the right of free speech isn't based on the obligation to say something sensible.
Joined: Dec 25, 2010 18:13:34 GMT -5
Posts: 31,770
Today's Mood: Saddened by Events
Location: Memory Lane
Favorite Drink: Water
|
Post by mmhmm on May 24, 2013 9:56:32 GMT -5
Again, Virgil, YOU may find the Pope's words "to no good effect". I, on the other hand, took a wonderful "effect" from them. YOU are not the world and your "effects" may differ from mine, and those of others. Bible verses hold no meaning for me; although, I respect they hold meaning for you. Take what you will from them, but don't expect all others to do the same. I read the words of a man of religion who embraced the world with those words. He spoke those words "in the now". I'll take it with a smile, and a nod of agreement.
|
|
mmhmm
Administrator
It's a great pity the right of free speech isn't based on the obligation to say something sensible.
Joined: Dec 25, 2010 18:13:34 GMT -5
Posts: 31,770
Today's Mood: Saddened by Events
Location: Memory Lane
Favorite Drink: Water
|
Post by mmhmm on May 24, 2013 9:59:19 GMT -5
Because we don't, necessarily? Because you are not omniscient? Because we see things differently than you might see them?
|
|
mmhmm
Administrator
It's a great pity the right of free speech isn't based on the obligation to say something sensible.
Joined: Dec 25, 2010 18:13:34 GMT -5
Posts: 31,770
Today's Mood: Saddened by Events
Location: Memory Lane
Favorite Drink: Water
|
Post by mmhmm on May 24, 2013 10:18:51 GMT -5
You, snowbird, may KNOW. For you, that's a wonderful thing and I'm happy for you. However, you and I don't KNOW the same thing. To me, the stronger word is RESPECT. I can respect your stance as long as you don't use that stance to denigrate my stance. We march to different drummers, but we may still be heading in the same direction if we allow ourselves to be.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Apr 18, 2024 19:55:23 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 24, 2013 10:22:37 GMT -5
mmhmm, Thank you! Everyone will have chances to find it out for themselves.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Apr 18, 2024 19:55:23 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 24, 2013 10:26:20 GMT -5
Snowbird, I have the utmost respect for your personal truth and religious beliefs. But I do find it offensive when you (and others) fail to acknowledge that others may not share your beliefs.
I find my personal faith to be powerful and uplifting. I find the faiths of others and discussions of comparative religions to be intellectually stimulating. I find proselytizing to be annoying and disrespectful.
|
|