cronewitch
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Post by cronewitch on May 7, 2013 18:05:05 GMT -5
My great niece is 14 and has Down Syndrome. She understands many things, can read, write, add, subtract and ride a bicycle. Her parents divorced and she wants her mom to marry her friend with Down Syndrome. He is 18 so a man, no reason her mom should date him in her eyes. Her mom is 40 and not interested.
Girl thinks boys are cute and giggles about them with her typical friends her age. She is a nice girl so I can see her someday having a boyfriend or husband. She would date her friend if she was old enough and probably have sex with him. She shouldn't have children, her Down Syndrome was inherited so the baby might have it and she wouldn't be a good mother to a typical baby let alone a special needs baby.
I hope her parents can make sure she doesn't have children but allow her to marry someone who loves her special needs or typical. Most typical people wouldn't choose to marry a special needs person but it does happen.
My ex had a special aunt and when she was 21 the milk man asked her parents if he could date her. They were married 30 years until he died. She was able to keep house and he drove, paid bills and supported them. They were happy together. He wasn't real smart probably IQ of 90 or so, but smarter than she was. They were childless.
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kittensaver
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Post by kittensaver on May 7, 2013 18:09:58 GMT -5
Taking the baby way from her. If she isn't capable of caring for a child, then she shouldn't be allowed to have a child. Once she has it, its mean to take it from her. The situation shouldn't arise to begin with. Ah, the slippery slope. There are (tragically) plenty of non-mentally-challenged women out there who are not capable of caring for a child [peruse these boards for opinions on poverty-stricken, emotionally detached, uneducated, unintelligent, drug-addled, "stupid," "entitled," "generational welfare" women] and no one stops them from having children - although some do eventually have their children taken away. Who are we to judge who will have an intelligent child and who will have a disabled one? Who are we to judge who is situationally suited to raising a child and who is not? Money and intelligence alone do not guarantee good parenting. "If she isn't capable of caring for a child, then she shouldn't be allowed to have a child." Who are we to know that in advance? Plenty of "normal" people get raised by inadequate parents - again I refer you to an endless number of threads on this board. Please don't tell me you're suggesting we go back to an era of eugenics.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2013 18:11:24 GMT -5
I agree with Sarah here, Zib. Based on whatever statistic I vaguely remember, a lot of mentally disabled people are abused . . . often by their caretakers. But the child has to be the taken care of. These parents may not be able to so the child protection services or whatever they are called in your state has to intervene. It doesn't necessarily mean that parental rights are terminated. It means the child is cared for.
I know we would prefer not to have more children be cared for by the taxpayers. I do believe that there should be a way for parents/guardians of moderate to severe intellectually disabled adults to make certain that birth control is taken care of. As a parent of seven-year-old child, I would be making certain decisions about their health and safety. If that intellectual ability is documented in an "adult," then the parent/guardian should be able to make the same decision about their health and safety.
But I don't think that negates sex. It is a basic human urge. With precautions taken against unintended consequences, I don't quite agree that intellectually disabled citizen automatically relinquish their rights to relationships and even marriage.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on May 7, 2013 18:19:35 GMT -5
Taking the baby way from her. If she isn't capable of caring for a child, then she shouldn't be allowed to have a child. Once she has it, its mean to take it from her. The situation shouldn't arise to begin with. Ah, the slippery slope. There are (tragically) plenty of non-mentally-challenged women out there who are not capable of caring for a child [peruse these boards for opinions on poverty-stricken, emotionally detached, uneducated, unintelligent, drug-addled, "stupid," "entitled," "generational welfare" women] and no one stops them from having children - although some do eventually have their children taken away. Who are we to judge who will have an intelligent child and who will have a disabled one? Who are we to judge who is situationally suited to raising a child and who is not? Money and intelligence alone do not guarantee good parenting. "If she isn't capable of caring for a child, then she shouldn't be allowed to have a child." Who are we to know that in advance? Plenty of "normal" people get raised by inadequate parents - again I refer you to an endless number of threads on this board. Please don't tell me you're suggesting we go back to an era of eugenics. It was American eugenicist Henry H. Goddard who introduced the terms 'idiot', 'imbecile', and 'moron' to American psychology in 1910.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2013 19:44:14 GMT -5
But you aren't confronting my opinion, Tennesseer. And I mostly agree with you, particularly about terminology.
Should, though, parents/guardians of those with a certain IQ be able to insist on birth control? Is the right to procreate not limited by mental capacity? If you can't consent to sex (or marriage), can you consent to parenthood?
I am not suggesting sterilization although I'm not completely sure why not. But I would allow even the severely disabled to be sexually active (basic human urge). I just don't think the "unintended consequences" can be ignored.
It is a really complex issue.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2013 19:59:26 GMT -5
What does it mean to be able to consent to sex? Other than restrictions for minors and intoxicated individuals, are there actually legal thresholds?
If you are unable to consent to sex, can you consent to having Cheerios for breakfast? Or to getting your haircut? Or any other day to day activities that you happen to enjoy?
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on May 7, 2013 20:05:31 GMT -5
I'm not suggesting the welfare moms who pop out baby after baby be sterilized, although I think they should not while on welfare itself. I'm saying that if a person cannot, due to a mental defect, care for themselves without adult supervision, then in no way, shape, or form, should they be having a baby. They may not even be able of fully understanding consequences for their basic urges. A baby is a consequence, period, of sex.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on May 7, 2013 20:06:10 GMT -5
But you aren't confronting my opinion, Tennesseer. And I mostly agree with you, particularly about terminology. Should, though, parents/guardians of those with a certain IQ be able to insist on birth control? Is the right to procreate not limited by mental capacity? If you can't consent to sex (or marriage), can you consent to parenthood? I am not suggesting sterilization although I'm not completely sure why not. But I would allow evenly the severely disabled to be sexually active (basic human urge). I just don't think the "unintended consequences" can be ignored. It is a really complex issue. Pregnancy is a big concern and must be addressed. This discussion reminds me of this case several years ago. Ethics of the "Ashley Treatment": Keeping a Disabled Child Small"Three years ago, Ashley's parents made a decision that they knew would forever change their lives, and their decision has become a topic of increasing debate among the medical community and in the eyes of the public. The bedridden girl had surgery in July 2004 to remove her uterus and breast buds, and then received large doses of hormones to halt her growth. She is about 13 inches shorter and about 50 pound slighter than she would have become as an adult, and she will stay that size for the rest of her life." www.buzzle.com/articles/126984.html
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on May 7, 2013 20:11:24 GMT -5
Oh, lord. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/tongue.png)
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on May 7, 2013 20:35:28 GMT -5
Before I comment on the original post, as the mom of a special needs child I can assure you that if you walked into a room and called my dd a moron I wouldn't respond too kindly. In fact, I'd do my best to have your ass tossed from the room. No offense or anything...
And as the mom of a special needs child who will be hitting her teen years sooner than I like, I have already talked birth control with her pediatrician. Eventually I will look to something permanent but on e she starts her periods we will be getting her the depo shot. At this point it will be to control her periods but I have to consider birth control for her as well. It scares me to thi I if what can happen to an innocent like her. There is no way she could raise a baby and it would kill me to have her give up a baby for adoption.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2013 21:35:03 GMT -5
I 1000% get that a pregnancy would not be an ideal situation for your daughter, Miss T. But I feel obligated to speak on behalf of adoptive families (is there a mama bear equivalent for aunts?)
You don't really "give up" babies any more. Most adoptions are open or semi-open now. So in the scenario that you described, if your daughter placed a baby for adoption, that is no reason to assume that the baby could not continue to be a part of your daughter's life and yours.
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haapai
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Post by haapai on May 7, 2013 23:33:06 GMT -5
My BFF has a SIL with Downs Syndrome.
Nothing in this story particularly surprises me.
Decades of forced sterilization have left a heck of a mess.
A person with a cognitive deficit usually cannot obtain a a sterilization, prove their infertility, or avail themselves of the most effective forms of birth control. Even if one half of of a heterosexual couple is sterile beyond reasonable doubt, no group home has anything to gain by accepting that science. Legally speaking, if you let a 35-year-old female with Downs Syndrome live with her 40-something husband who has fragile X, Downs Syndrome, XYY or some other similarly sterilizing syndrome, you have no legal leg to stand on when two presumably fertile opposite sex youngsters ask for the same treatment.
The only part of this story that give me any hope is Miss Tequila's belief that she can get depo for her daughter. I hope she's right. I hope that she's done all of her homework and dotted all of her "i"s.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on May 8, 2013 6:57:03 GMT -5
My BFF has a SIL with Downs Syndrome. Nothing in this story particularly surprises me. Decades of forced sterilization have left a heck of a mess. A person with a cognitive deficit usually cannot obtain a a sterilization, prove their infertility, or avail themselves of the most effective forms of birth control. Even if one half of of a heterosexual couple is sterile beyond reasonable doubt, no group home has anything to gain by accepting that science. Legally speaking, if you let a 35-year-old female with Downs Syndrome live with her 40-something husband who has fragile X, Downs Syndrome, XYY or some other similarly sterilizing syndrome, you have no legal leg to stand on when two presumably fertile opposite sex youngsters ask for the same treatment. The only part of this story that give me any hope is Miss Tequila's belief that she can get depo for her daughter. I hope she's right. I hope that she's done all of her homework and dotted all of her "i"s. Hmm, I spoke with her pediatrician and he was the one that recommended depo. I guess I never considered that it might be an issue. Perhaps it is all in documentation...if it is to control her periods it is ok. Forced birth control isn't? I don't know
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on May 8, 2013 6:58:54 GMT -5
I 1000% get that a pregnancy would not be an ideal situation for your daughter, Miss T. But I feel obligated to speak on behalf of adoptive families (is there a mama bear equivalent for aunts?) You don't really "give up" babies any more. Most adoptions are open or semi-open now. So in the scenario that you described, if your daughter placed a baby for adoption, that is no reason to assume that the baby could not continue to be a part of your daughter's life and yours. I understand and as a staunchly pro-life person I am 100 percent in favor of adoptions. But I would also have a very hard time giving up my own flesh and blood. I just hope and pray it is something I never have to consider....it would break my heart
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 8, 2013 7:17:43 GMT -5
My BFF has a SIL with Downs Syndrome. Nothing in this story particularly surprises me. Decades of forced sterilization have left a heck of a mess. A person with a cognitive deficit usually cannot obtain a a sterilization, prove their infertility, or avail themselves of the most effective forms of birth control. Even if one half of of a heterosexual couple is sterile beyond reasonable doubt, no group home has anything to gain by accepting that science. Legally speaking, if you let a 35-year-old female with Downs Syndrome live with her 40-something husband who has fragile X, Downs Syndrome, XYY or some other similarly sterilizing syndrome, you have no legal leg to stand on when two presumably fertile opposite sex youngsters ask for the same treatment. The only part of this story that give me any hope is Miss Tequila's belief that she can get depo for her daughter. I hope she's right. I hope that she's done all of her homework and dotted all of her "i"s. Hmm, I spoke with her pediatrician and he was the one that recommended depo. I guess I never considered that it might be an issue. Perhaps it is all in documentation...if it is to control her periods it is ok. Forced birth control isn't? I don't know Part of it may be that you were speaking to her pediatrician. Parents have more latitude to make medical decisions for their minor children. Once she is an adult, her ability to communicate her consent becomes more of an issue. If she indicates she doesn't want a shot, they might not be able to give it to her since it isn't technically necessary.
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wvugurl26
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Post by wvugurl26 on May 8, 2013 7:39:42 GMT -5
Hmm, I spoke with her pediatrician and he was the one that recommended depo. I guess I never considered that it might be an issue. Perhaps it is all in documentation...if it is to control her periods it is ok. Forced birth control isn't? I don't know Part of it may be that you were speaking to her pediatrician. Parents have more latitude to make medical decisions for their minor children. Once she is an adult, her ability to communicate her consent becomes more of an issue. If she indicates she doesn't want a shot, they might not be able to give it to her since it isn't technically necessary. But if the person in question isn't mentally competent and capable of making decisions regarding medical care isn't it still a guardian's responsibility to make those choices?
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on May 8, 2013 8:31:05 GMT -5
Except,you can't. They have "rights." Even though the consequences of those rights affect not the people advocating for those rights.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on May 8, 2013 8:36:13 GMT -5
You can be appointed guardian and be given the ability make those decisions for the person who can't make them.
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973beachbum
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Post by 973beachbum on May 8, 2013 8:40:40 GMT -5
Part of it may be that you were speaking to her pediatrician. Parents have more latitude to make medical decisions for their minor children. Once she is an adult, her ability to communicate her consent becomes more of an issue. If she indicates she doesn't want a shot, they might not be able to give it to her since it isn't technically necessary. But if the person in question isn't mentally competent and capable of making decisions regarding medical care isn't it still a guardian's responsibility to make those choices? Reproduction is considered a right is my understanding. It is very hard to take away someone's rights, which it should be. It would make me crazy though, if my child was totally disabled like this and could never be independant of us, but we didnt have the legal right to make such a decision for her.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on May 8, 2013 11:44:41 GMT -5
Welcome to the legal world.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on May 8, 2013 13:13:31 GMT -5
You can be appointed guardian and be given the ability make those decisions for the person who can't make them. This is what I was thinking. I will always have to make medical decisions for my dd as I do not believe she will ever be competant "enough" to fully understand ramifacations.
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alabamagal
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Post by alabamagal on May 8, 2013 13:39:19 GMT -5
Actually most people with Down's syndrome and other genetic disorders are not fertile, chances of pregnancy are much less for them. The issue does need to be addressed by parents/guardians, though.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 8, 2013 14:16:27 GMT -5
You can be appointed guardian and be given the ability make those decisions for the person who can't make them. This is what I was thinking. I will always have to make medical decisions for my dd as I do not believe she will ever be competant "enough" to fully understand ramifacations. If she can express her opposition and it isn't a life-saving procedure, she will probably be able to overrrule you though.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on May 8, 2013 14:18:50 GMT -5
This is what I was thinking. I will always have to make medical decisions for my dd as I do not believe she will ever be competant "enough" to fully understand ramifacations. If she can express her opposition and it isn't a life-saving procedure, she will probably be able to overrrule you though. Maybe. She is too young for me to have done any real researc on this. Luckily she does NOT have my personality and is pretty much a go-with-the-flow personality...so I don't know that she would give me that hard of a time if I tell her something is in her best interests. My older dd is me to a T so she would be a PITA and fight me every step of the way!
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on May 8, 2013 14:19:02 GMT -5
This is what I was thinking. I will always have to make medical decisions for my dd as I do not believe she will ever be competant "enough" to fully understand ramifacations. If she can express her opposition and it isn't a life-saving procedure, she will probably be able to overrrule you though. Maybe. She is too young for me to have done any real researc on this. Luckily she does NOT have my personality and is pretty much a go-with-the-flow personality...so I don't know that she would give me that hard of a time if I tell her something is in her best interests. My older dd is me to a T so she would be a PITA and fight me every step of the way!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 8, 2013 14:27:03 GMT -5
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on May 8, 2013 14:29:24 GMT -5
I was dong the same thing and found all kinds of articles on japan, croatia, etc...my googling skills suck ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/tongue.png)
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 8, 2013 14:58:13 GMT -5
Or the availability of resources for families in the States sucks.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on May 8, 2013 15:06:14 GMT -5
Or the availability of resources for families in the States sucks. Ok, I like that answer better
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on May 8, 2013 15:06:54 GMT -5
Or the availability of resources for families in the States sucks. Ok, I like that answer better
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