AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Mar 1, 2013 13:50:33 GMT -5
In The Millionaire Next Door, Dr. Thomas Stanely identified the traits of people who became millionaires in one generation- which is 82% of all millionaires in America. One of the traits on his list was, "They are proficient at identifying market opportunities". May I submit to you that a market opportunity is EDUCATION. This is a very interesting talk- and btw, I regard it as a-political. It isn't "anti-government run school", it isn't "pro". The ideas presented are not political, they are simply observations. These arent' "good" ideas or "bad" ideas- they're just ideas. They are pretty basic observations about what is, and what will be... www.ted.com/talks/sugata_mitra_build_a_school_in_the_cloud.html
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Mar 1, 2013 13:55:25 GMT -5
I think an important part of school is socialization and all the life lessons you learn dealing with other people. That's kind of hard to do from behind a computer.....
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Clifford
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Post by Clifford on Mar 1, 2013 16:13:11 GMT -5
Here's the market opportunity: Poor/old tech in the schools - Computer Labs & classroom PCs sponsored by Apple/IBM/Cicso Deteriorating gym - Athletics programs sponsored by Nike/Rebok/Wilson/Under Armor Inadequate lunch program - Cafeteria sponsored by Chic-Fil-A/McDonalds/ConAgra Same concept goes for school/office supplies, uniforms, books, you name it. Sell the space on the wall above the lockers for advertising. Schools get the funding and supplies, while the corporations get to market to an easily influenced and spending-prone demographic. Win-win.
I'll let you decide if I am being facetious...
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brdsl
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Post by brdsl on Mar 1, 2013 17:12:52 GMT -5
I get lost when they talk about these online schools. My first question is, who is going to monitor the 5 - 14 year olds when mom and dad are at work?
I guess they would have to develop something for those.
I have a vision of the following.
It will be a place that these children go to each day, and there is an adult there to watch them. The adult can make sure they don't fight, and if they have problems...the adult will help them.
I will call it a loohcs.
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mrsdutt
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Post by mrsdutt on Mar 1, 2013 17:48:12 GMT -5
When there is interaction with non family members, not all will be positive. Kids have to experience these scenarios to learn how to handle them. People obtain confidence after they learn such things.
Not all teachers and students get along well. (as well as peers)
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Mar 1, 2013 17:53:33 GMT -5
I think an important part of school is socialization and all the life lessons you learn dealing with other people. That's kind of hard to do from behind a computer..... You learn dealing with other people. You do not necessarily learn locked in a room with 25 people your exact same age. When else in the real world will that EVER happen? The fact is that "socialization" is overrated altogether, but it's definitely overrated the way it happens in traditional schools- public, private- doesn't matter. It's the blind leading the blind. What I found fascinating about the presentation is that it confirms something I've observed with my own kids- especially my three year old. If I hand them my iPad or the phone- and just leave them alone. They don't need a tutorial. In fact, if you try- it hinders them. I'm pretty conservative politically- but that's because I'm liberal. When it comes to the future of things like education, I could see NO schools, NO teachers, NO tests or state involvement of any kind. I can envison no colleges or universities- not as we know them today, anyway.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Mar 2, 2013 8:58:32 GMT -5
Maybe the school I send my kids to isn't the norm, but there are lots of socialization opportunities outside the classroom. Before school has all the kids in the gym, gym art, music, and library are combined grades, recess is the whole school at once, band is grades 4 to 6, filed trips are multiple grades.
Yesterday, my Jr. k DD's class had lunch in their classroom for whatever reason, and the 5 and 6 grade kids were recruited as helpers. DD has become prett close to the 6th grader who walks her to the babysitter after school and seems to always be paired with her when the older kids help the younger ones.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Mar 2, 2013 9:42:17 GMT -5
Maybe the school I send my kids to isn't the norm, but there are lots of socialization opportunities outside the classroom. Before school has all the kids in the gym, gym art, music, and library are combined grades, recess is the whole school at once, band is grades 4 to 6, filed trips are multiple grades. Yesterday, my Jr. k DD's class had lunch in their classroom for whatever reason, and the 5 and 6 grade kids were recruited as helpers. DD has become prett close to the 6th grader who walks her to the babysitter after school and seems to always be paired with her when the older kids help the younger ones. If I had a nickel for every time I have heard the "my school is different" or "my school would never" or "the school is great here"-- I'd be a billionaire. It's a myth. You're kidding yourself. The traditional school model isn't just outdated- it is completely irrelevant to the new way of living and working. It is literally a world unto itself that bears absolutely no resemblance to the real world.
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milee
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Post by milee on Mar 2, 2013 10:27:50 GMT -5
Just as kids are ready for different academic concepts at various stages of their development, they are ready for different types of socialization and group learning at various developmental stages. So there's a time and a place for group interaction just as there is a time and a place for learning certain academic concepts.
While I do think children benefit from and should be exposed to groups of other children, forcing large groups of kids of the same age (but not the same intellectual or emotional ability) to learn in a group environment just doesn't sound like the best way to learn either academics or socialization.
It doesn't sound practical on a large scale, but for kids who have parents who are involved and informed enough to be involved in designing a program for their kid, a combination of cloud education balanced with or as a part of group interaction is probably the optimal approach.
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Mar 2, 2013 11:24:24 GMT -5
I sometimes envision something like this for the kids (or at least a segment of kids) at poorer performing schools. The kids who are at the top of a class OR the kids who are motivated by their interest in a particular topic (but maybe doing poorly in other areas) could join an 'on line course' either as a small group of kids (with similiar interests/motivations). This kind of thing wouldn't necessarily be a requirement for ALL kids in the class/school to take specific on-line courses. I think this would need to take place in school - with supervision and some guidance - since in theory the kids taking the course would be MOTIVATED by themselves/their interest to do so... they'd just need someone (a mentor?) to keep them on track and moving forward.
I can see where something like this would give the better performing kids at a so-so school the opportunity to get a better education at their so-so school. And I can see where something like this might help some of the underperforming kids if they could persue a topic they were interested in.
I'm begining to think education these days is more a form of 'entertainment' for kids - in that it's the Teachers job to get the kids interested in topics and learning and the teachers seem to spend about 80% of their time and effort generating that interest with 'dog and pony' shows (while getting kids to learn how to spell or memorize basic math skills). I think kids are being conditioned to consider something uninteresting/not worth paying attention to if it isn't preceded by something highly attention grabbing and sparkly. I don't think kids are learning how to cope with their own disinterest/boredom and are learning to expect other people to do it for them - if they are bored or not interested it's up to someone else to fix that problem for them. <-- Ok, I'm alittle more bitter than usual this morning.
That said... I can see where a self motivated kid having access (a course online or vie pre-recorded video) might go above and beyond the learning available at their local school system. But, then I think this already happens for some kids - because their motivated parents encourage/look for opportunities like that.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Mar 2, 2013 11:31:28 GMT -5
Just as kids are ready for different academic concepts at various stages of their development, they are ready for different types of socialization and group learning at various developmental stages. So there's a time and a place for group interaction just as there is a time and a place for learning certain academic concepts.
While I do think children benefit from and should be exposed to groups of other children, forcing large groups of kids of the same age (but not the same intellectual or emotional ability) to learn in a group environment just doesn't sound like the best way to learn either academics or socialization.
It doesn't sound practical on a large scale, but for kids who have parents who are involved and informed enough to be involved in designing a program for their kid, a combination of cloud education balanced with or as a part of group interaction is probably the optimal approach. The era of the "large scale" is over. This idea, like the factory model it comes from, is from nearly two centuries ago. The "city" is going to be reduced to an entertainment district- it's no longer necessary for people to congregate around a manufacturing center in the United States. It probably won't be my generation that does away with the old model of education, but we've started the ball rolling. Home schooling is growing, but even home schooling tries to cling to the old ideas of what school should be. The challenge is not the curriculum, but the methods. Like the video suggests- the old concept of school is a factory that turns out an obsolete product. It is no longer necessary to produce an 18th century soldier, or a citizen of the empire- any empire-- it's no longer required, and it's no longer desireable. I can see virtually all primary education happening almost by osmosis with no formal education required at all. Schools will still exist for specialties, but they will largely be small- microscopic compared to the old university model, and they will be the domain of the private sector ala "teaching hospitals".
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milee
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Post by milee on Mar 2, 2013 11:37:39 GMT -5
Paul, I understand the concept and there are parts of the concept I agree with.
I am simply having difficulting understanding or conceptualizing how this can be applied across the entire population of school aged children. Easy to do with the kids in the top 10% - 15% of the socioeconomic strata, reasonably possible to do with the kids in the middle 20%-25%, but incredibly difficult - if not impossible - to do with the bottom 60% - 70%, which is where IMHO most of the challenges are now anyway.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Mar 2, 2013 11:47:31 GMT -5
I'm going to move this to YM off-topic. It's a better fit there.
mmhmm, Administrator
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milee
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Post by milee on Mar 2, 2013 11:48:25 GMT -5
Just to clarify - I think the biggest issue with this type of learning is that its success is highly dependent on having either a kid who is self-knowledgeable and motivated enought to choose and explore appropriate learning experiences (not very common) OR an adult with detailed knowledge of that child's strength, weaknesses, potential and interests supervising that child's individual plan. An educated, caring parent might serve as a good supervisor in many cases, but for millions of children who don't have that, another adult - teacher/guidance expert - will be needed. Tough to find.
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Mar 2, 2013 11:57:55 GMT -5
<abbr class="time" title="Mar 2, 2013 16:48:25 GMT" data-timestamp="1362242905000">Mar 2, 2013 16:48:25 GMT</abbr> milee said:Just to clarify - I think the biggest issue with this type of learning is that its success is highly dependent on having either a kid who is self-knowledgeable and motivated enought to choose and explore appropriate learning experiences (not very common) OR an adult with detailed knowledge of that child's strenghth, weaknesses, potential and interests supervising that child's individual plan. An educated, caring parent might serve as a good supervisor in many cases, but for millions of children who don't have that, another adult - teacher/guidance expert - will be needed. Tough to find.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Mar 2, 2013 12:13:26 GMT -5
Maybe the school I send my kids to isn't the norm, but there are lots of socialization opportunities outside the classroom. Before school has all the kids in the gym, gym art, music, and library are combined grades, recess is the whole school at once, band is grades 4 to 6, filed trips are multiple grades. Yesterday, my Jr. k DD's class had lunch in their classroom for whatever reason, and the 5 and 6 grade kids were recruited as helpers. DD has become prett close to the 6th grader who walks her to the babysitter after school and seems to always be paired with her when the older kids help the younger ones. If I had a nickel for every time I have heard the "my school is different" or "my school would never" or "the school is great here"-- I'd be a billionaire. It's a myth. You're kidding yourself. The traditional school model isn't just outdated- it is completely irrelevant to the new way of living and working. It is literally a world unto itself that bears absolutely no resemblance to the real world. During the 2008 school year there were 98,916 elementary and secondary public schools. Surely one or more of them can be "my school is different", "my school would never", and "the school is great here". You must admit you cannot be personally familiar with each and every one of the 98,916 public schools in the U.S.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2013 12:35:32 GMT -5
We can just make walls of cages, tuck the kids in and hook them up to the computer for a day of school. Properly designed there would not be a need for a supervisor.
If the government invented a knowledge chip they could just implant it in kids brains and be done with the terribly high cost of educating children, right? That seems like the most cost effective approach.
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Post by Opti on Mar 2, 2013 12:46:51 GMT -5
If I had a nickel for every time I have heard the "my school is different" or "my school would never" or "the school is great here"-- I'd be a billionaire. It's a myth. You're kidding yourself. The traditional school model isn't just outdated- it is completely irrelevant to the new way of living and working. It is literally a world unto itself that bears absolutely no resemblance to the real world. During the 2008 school year there were 98,916 elementary and secondary public schools. Surely one or more of them can be "my school is different", "my school would never", and "the school is great here". You must admit you cannot be personally familiar with each and every one of the 98,916 public schools in the U.S. Admit? Tenn, have you met Paul? He just recently posted that traditional schools are a twitching corpse despite the facts that the latest stats I could find estimate homeschooling at perhaps 3.49% of the population in 2007. I agree with Milee that a non-tradtional approach will be hampered by simple economics and at best has a max around 25% of the population during all our lifetimes.
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Post by Opti on Mar 2, 2013 13:03:04 GMT -5
I always laugh when I see Paul's argument about the 18th century soldiers as if most of them were in traditional schools mostly separated by grade level. I expect a good portion never went to school because their family were farmers or went to a one room schoolhouse.
I don't think school needs to mimic any part of real life because it is school. Yes it would be helpful to have more internship programs at the high school or college levels but the goal to me of education is to prepare for something. It doesn't need to be it right off the bat.
I think what Paul may never acknowledge is homeschooling as what he related about his experiences has far more in common with educating children of royal or monied families. The governerness/tutor model which pre-dates the existence of the US.
Schools in the cloud may have their uses, but I hope more as specialties that require little to no equipment versus a full educational experience. I can think of many things from TV broadcasting to auto shop to home ec that really are taught better in person than by watching some video. Once a person has a base level of expertise videos can help. But if you can't figure out what you are doing wrong a person who is there and can watch what you are doing is the best option. (Slow day. I really should be spending time on something more useful...)
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Mar 2, 2013 13:32:42 GMT -5
Paul, I understand the concept and there are parts of the concept I agree with. I am simply having difficulting understanding or conceptualizing how this can be applied across the entire population of school aged children. Easy to do with the kids in the top 10% - 15% of the socioeconomic strata, reasonably possible to do with the kids in the middle 20%-25%, but incredibly difficult - if not impossible - to do with the bottom 60% - 70%, which is where IMHO most of the challenges are now anyway. You're still stuck in the old model. We're so steeped in it we use words like "applied" and phrases like "across the whole population". The reality is that the "whole population" is not our concern, and our "whole population" needn't be concerned with us. I'm trying to come up with an analogy or a way of articulating the idea that doesn't involve the current vernacular- because the reality is that what we think is real, isn't. Every assumption is wrong, and every experience we have at our disposal to draw upon is outmoded. It's like saying that because I know how to drive a horse drawn wagon, I can drive a tractor trailer, or a rocket ship.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Mar 2, 2013 13:57:07 GMT -5
Actually, this isn't on topic- but the response is: of course I can. Because we have a federal department of education, and have had it for 30 years, and because school is more top-down and centrally planned than ever before and because groupthink (best practices) permeates all of it- it's all the exact same. There is no difference. Sure, you have different people and personalities at play- but everything about one school is EXACTLY the same as another. There's no school out there someplace that's part of the ordinary government run school system that is doing anything differently than any other school. There are no "good" school districts, because there can't be. Most schools are poor, and "good" schools are only mediocre schools that are "good" by contrast.
But even the best ordinary school is only "good" by a standard of measure that is irrelevant to a rapidly changing, technologically dependent, and more individually independent world. We can become challenged, frustrated, annoyed, and fight over this. We can completely miss it and choose up sides "for" and "against" government run schools, vs private schools, vs home schooling- but while we're all fighting over it-- there are those that are moving beyond all of it-- as that video of that kid illustrates.
There are of course appropriate times and places for traditional school methods, but they're rare.
What I'm pointing out here is that there will be tremendous opportunity in unconventional education, and in content creation and in providing content in a changing world. There are some places in the world-- such as described in the OP video- where the technology will move so fast, and the economic and practical considerations will overwhelm the impulse to construct and education monstrosity that they'll never actually see anything like a conventional school system as they develop because they'll have so quickly advanced beyond it that they'll never be saddled with it in the first place. Those places will thrive.
Meanwhile here at home- education faces an economic reality: nevermind how we all may feel about it, ultimately math is math. The current system, however effective will no longer be economically viable, and those who are ready to fill the need. Even as things stand, people are looking for alternatives- for ways around the current system without the cost and hassles associated with private schools. Homeschooling is one solution, but it's not practical for every family. I've long felt a hybrid option would develop.
Now, you don't have to get into it as an entrepreneur-- you can make investments. Take a look at TED. TED itself is an example of a new model that is developing. The sponsors are not rinky dink companies. TED conferences are not noted to be kook conventions.
The way I see it education is just one of the problems that requires solving as the traditional model collapses on itself. The fact is that 80% to 90% of the service rendered by traditional schools is child care. They're very expensive baby sitters. That is a problem that will have to be solved- kids of a certain age group and younger will always require supervision.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Mar 2, 2013 13:58:04 GMT -5
For example- if you've ever heard of "common core" or "everyday math" then your school is NO different.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Mar 2, 2013 14:00:32 GMT -5
<abbr class="time" title="Mar 2, 2013 16:48:25 GMT" data-timestamp="1362242905000">Mar 2, 2013 16:48:25 GMT</abbr> milee said:Just to clarify - I think the biggest issue with this type of learning is that its success is highly dependent on having either a kid who is self-knowledgeable and motivated enought to choose and explore appropriate learning experiences (not very common) OR an adult with detailed knowledge of that child's strenghth, weaknesses, potential and interests supervising that child's individual plan. An educated, caring parent might serve as a good supervisor in many cases, but for millions of children who don't have that, another adult - teacher/guidance expert - will be needed. Tough to find. Um, actually- it's easier to find than ever. We've never had more access to information and to individuals than we do now-- worldwide. The beauty of the system that is developing because of technology is that kids aren't limited to their own parents, or their local community. They can reach out, and their parents can reach out to people all over the world; they can access information like never before.
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Robert not Bobby
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Post by Robert not Bobby on Mar 2, 2013 15:42:08 GMT -5
In The Millionaire Next Door, Dr. Thomas Stanely identified the traits of people who became millionaires in one generation- which is 82% of all millionaires in America. One of the traits on his list was, "They are proficient at identifying market opportunities". May I submit to you that a market opportunity is EDUCATION. This is a very interesting talk- and btw, I regard it as a-political. It isn't "anti-government run school", it isn't "pro". The ideas presented are not political, they are simply observations. These arent' "good" ideas or "bad" ideas- they're just ideas. They are pretty basic observations about what is, and what will be... www.ted.com/talks/sugata_mitra_build_a_school_in_the_cloud.htmlSorry, I didn't read it. Here is my take...nature almost always trumps nurture, though, given as good an environment and the right kind of stimulus...most kids can do OK...but ok is not always good enough. Some people are, and always will be, naturally 'dull', others, who some describe as hyper active, can do and see things many of us can't. Everyone, with a little effort finds his/her own place in the world...if they want it.
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Mar 2, 2013 16:22:38 GMT -5
Um, actually- it's easier to find than ever. We've never had more access to information and to individuals than we do now-- worldwide. The beauty of the system that is developing because of technology is that kids aren't limited to their own parents, or their local community. They can reach out, and their parents can reach out to people all over the world; they can access information like never before. It's not so much the getting to the info/knowledge - it's the lack of motivation on the side of the kids... I've seen plenty of motivated parents with motivated kids who have excelled at school, or extra curricular stuff, or who have hobbies/interests outside of school. A 'motivated' parent might be one that makes sure the kid does his homework, goes to bed at a reasonable time, and makes sure the kid is up and ready for school the next day, and maybe takes some interest in what stuff the kid is doing outside of school and helps/lets the kid do those things. This versus a "Tiger Mom" or a "helicopter parent". There's plenty of stuff available for kids above and beyond their classroom - it just takes alittle work to find it and then the ability to stick with it/keep it up.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Mar 2, 2013 16:33:46 GMT -5
Actually, the ideas presented solve the lack of motivation. What kids are not motivated to do is learn in the old model.
You have a point about parental motivation, but without parents who give a crap- it's hopeless anyway. This entire post assumes parents who care- if nobody really cares, there's no economic opportunity. Parents who do not care are not the customer.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Mar 3, 2013 12:24:05 GMT -5
If I had a nickel for every time I have heard the "my school is different" or "my school would never" or "the school is great here"-- I'd be a billionaire. It's a myth. You're kidding yourself. The traditional school model isn't just outdated- it is completely irrelevant to the new way of living and working. It is literally a world unto itself that bears absolutely no resemblance to the real world. My kids go to a very small catholic private school, so I know it has no relation to the rtea world. However, it is common around this are to have public schools where the entire class has less than 30 kids, so there is lots of mixing between the grades. I'm not so naive to think my kids school is special. It's not.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2013 13:11:57 GMT -5
Besides education, school is a place for the kids to be supervised all day while the parents work. There is no formula for remote education that can replace that.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2013 13:29:38 GMT -5
It's just very hard for most people to envision wht they don't live. It's difficult for people who live with a 'schooling' model to understand how a 'non- schooling' model functions.
There are logistical issues. Parents working is one. Low socioeconomic is another, but, did you see Ted's video of the year? ....
homeschooling is booming around here....
eta, ok, going back to actually watch the videos, I realize the Ted one is what Paul linked...
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2013 1:01:27 GMT -5
For example- if you've ever heard of "common core" or "everyday math" then your school is NO different. IMHO, Everyday Math is one of the worst math programs I have ever seen. I say that as a parent and a teacher.
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