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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2011 23:32:28 GMT -5
What i was saying was... 1) Were you under the impression that flying planes into the twin towers was done by Americans? 2) Because the current hearing are being held about AMERICANS... not Al Queda invaders from other countries....
So you see, having hearings about radical Al Queda invaders from other countries.... is NOT the same thing as having hearings about the radicalization of muslim americans...
The fact that there is no distinction there... is the exact problem with these hearings. Muslim Americans are not the enemy... Muslim Americans should not be held responsible for radical muslims any more than Christian or Right Wing, or Animal rights persons should be help responsible for the actions of the extremists in their midst... If we want to hold fair hearings on Radicalization of Americans... it should deal with ALL radicalization... from ALL extremist groups...
Do you understand the distinctions. The fact is that King might SAY he is willing to do it for all groups... but the fact is that there are reports, and incidents, that show radicals from those other groups are also a threat... but there are no hearings on those groups... just muslim americans...
(and King might say that, but i've also caught him comparing the IRA to the British Military... so ...)
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Mar 12, 2011 23:33:14 GMT -5
Maybe I need to start a new thread: March 11, 2011 Five 'Sovereign Citizens' plot to kidnap and kill Alaskan cops Members of the domestic terrorism group also plotted to kill a judge, claiming courts should have no authority over them By Sam Friedman Fairbanks Daily News-Miner FAIRBANKS, Alaska — Five people, including militia activist Schaeffer Cox, were arrested Thursday in the Fairbanks area for allegedly conspiring to kill multiple Alaska State Troopers and a federal judge. The group had stockpiled weapons and conducted surveillance on the homes of two troopers, according to Alaska State Troopers. Some of the weapons known to be in the cache are prohibited by state or federal law, according to troopers. In addition to Cox, those taken into custody are Lonnie and Karen Vernon of Salcha, Coleman Barney of North Pole and Michael Anderson, whose hometown was unclear. All were taken into custody without incident. The arrests were made by the Alaska State Troopers’ Special Emergency Reaction Team, along with Fairbanks troopers, the FBI, U.S. Marshal’s Service and the Fairbanks Police Department. U.S. District Court Judge Ralph Beistline was the judge targeted, U.S. Attorney Karen Loeffler said. Lonnie Vernon was recently indicted on the charge of threatening to kill Beistline, the chief judge for the U.S. District Court in Alaska, “in the fulfillment of his duties” and is the only member of the group facing federal charges, Loeffler said. Beistline is presiding over a tax-evasion case involving the Vernons. The five arrested Thursday face several state charges, including conspiracy to commit murder, conspiracy to commit kidnapping, conspiracy to commit arson, and tampering with evidence, according to troopers. More: www.policeone.com/homeland-security/articles/3421024-Five-Sovereign-Citizens-plot-to-kidnap-and-kill-Alaskan-cops/ And how do we know they are Christians?How about I give you one. You can research the rest of his militant group. At the 1:06 minute marker, militia activist Schaeffer Cox doesn't say Allah gave children to families but that God did. www.godtube.com/watch/?v=7DZ7DPNXAnd then at marker 4:35, Cox is quoting from the Christian bible: www.godtube.com/watch/?v=9JC9BMNUAnd then we have this quote from Schaeffer Cox himself in an article from the Fairbanks, Alaska morning newspaper 3/12/2011: He said the militia members are firm in their belief that everything happens according to God’s plan.
"Unless we are abiding in the firm conviction of that knowledge, we will be scared people that will have shit in our boots anytime the man addresses us. And that does not bring God glory. That brings glory to Satan. It brings glory to him and says wow this guy is so powerful that he makes the saints tremble. And that's not how we can live."newsminer.com/pages/full_story/push?blog-entry-Schaeffer+Cox+said+courts+feared+his+militia%20&id=12328219&instance=blogs_editors_desk
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Post by jarhead1976 on Mar 13, 2011 7:42:32 GMT -5
I can find stuff like that in the bible too jarhead... and stuff in the Quran that is pro Christianity and forgiveness/peace... Interesting how poverty and a lack of education can lead to sheeple... yet people don't seem to get that when they are talking about anti-poverty and educational policies in the United States ...... Show me where it says Christians or Jews Hindu or otherwise demands the destruction of anyone that is not a believer?
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Post by jarhead1976 on Mar 13, 2011 8:00:16 GMT -5
"Mohammed is God's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another" Quran 48:29 This is the very foundation On what the MB stands for!
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Post by privateinvestor on Mar 13, 2011 8:50:05 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2011 9:30:50 GMT -5
I was posting a quote from the link that Ratchets put up in #151... i did not vet the source... I was just showing that even his link said this is about AMERICANS...
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2011 9:45:28 GMT -5
[/quote]...... Show me where it says Christians or Jews Hindu or otherwise demands the destruction of anyone that is not a believer?[/quote]
Deuteronomy 6:10
If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods that neither you nor your ancestors have known, 7 gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), 8 do not yield to them or listen to them. Show them no pity. Do not spare them or shield them. 9 You must certainly put them to death. Your hand must be the first in putting them to death, and then the hands of all the people. 10 Stone them to death, because they tried to turn you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.
He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed. Exodus 22:20
2 Chronicles 15:13 That whoever would not seek the LORD God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.
For starters...
There are also political extremists, environmental extremists, etc. who are not religious groups, but also represent radicalization...
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Post by privateinvestor on Mar 13, 2011 9:54:13 GMT -5
The Muslim Brotherhood in America was not discussed in the King hearings re: Radicalization of Islam in this country... Nor were any ties to al Qaeda... basically there were a few Muslim witnesses who spoke to the subject of Radicalization which is a broad term to indicate that Muslim youths in this country are being induced to acts of terrorism in this country and they gave several examples. So is Radicalization a serious threat to our National Security? King say YES but the Liberals on his committee are not sure. The Obama administration has been non committal on this issue as well as the Muslim Brotherhood except for Security Adviser Clapper who thinks that they are only secular in Egypt and not a threat to us... But in all due respects to Mr Clapper he has been wrong more than he has been right on just about every subject dealing with Muslim terrorism.And he is our National Security Adviser...
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Mar 13, 2011 14:32:40 GMT -5
The Muslim Brotherhood in America was not discussed in the King hearings re: Radicalization of Islam in this country... Nor were any ties to al Qaeda... basically there were a few Muslim witnesses who spoke to the subject of Radicalization which is a broad term to indicate that Muslim youths in this country are being induced to acts of terrorism in this country and they gave several examples. So is Radicalization a serious threat to our National Security? King say YES but the Liberals on his committee are not sure. The Obama administration has been non committal on this issue as well as the Muslim Brotherhood except for Security Adviser Clapper who thinks that they are only secular in Egypt and not a threat to us... But in all due respects to Mr Clapper he has been wrong more than he has been right on just about every subject dealing with Muslim terrorism.And he is our National Security Adviser... --------------------------------------------------- Your opinion, in his latest testifying before Congress, he expressed his opinion, based by the way not just his gut feelings I am sure, that the way things look right now, in time Gaddafi will win out, basically crush the insurgency against him. Because he told it the way he sees it, {seems to be playing out that way, the talking heads in the media are calling it his way too as well as other experts, reports from the ground} the Truth in his mind, which he is SWORN to do by the way, some important Senators are calling for his resignation, I guess they believe in the old adage, don't care for the message delivered one kills the messenger. Are all his ideas always correct, the information of his agency always correct? When it comes to intelligence, it is up to the resources available, to always get it correct, not going to happen. To criticize out of hand when one doesn't have the need to know, expertise or information, I don't understand the reasoning of and in this case the criticizing senator was wrong in calling for the directors removal as both Lieberman and McCain said publicly. -------------------------------------------------------- news.yahoo.com/s/dailycaller/20110311/pl_dailycaller/lindseygrahamclapperhashadthreestrikesmustresign----------------------------------------------------------------- Lindsey Graham: Clapper has had three strikes, must resign Share ..Steven Nelson - The Daily Caller Steven Nelson - The Daily Caller – Thu Mar 10, 7:25 pm ET Director of National Intelligence James Clapper told the Senate Armed Services Committee Thursday that Libyan leader Muamar Gadhafi was positioned to defeat anti-government rebels. “I just think from a standpoint of attrition, that over time, I mean — this is kind of a stalemate back and forth,” Clapper said, “but I think over the longer term that the regime will prevail.” The comment prompted criticism of Clapper. South Carolina Republican Sen. Lindsey Graham said that the statement was “devastating” and called for Clapper to resign. “Three strikes and you’re out,” Graham said. Graham said that Clapper’s public analysis harmed American foreign policy interests. “Some of his analysis could prove to be accurate, but it should not have been made in such a public forum,” Graham said. “If he felt the need to say what he did, then they should have moved into closed session.” Arizona Republican Sen. John McCain responded, “This is just one of those cases on a rare occasion where Sen. Graham and I are in disagreement, but I want to say I have very high regard for Gen. Clapper, and I appreciate the very difficult work he and the people under him do.” [ For complete coverage of politics and policy, go to Yahoo! Politics ] Connecticut Independent Sen. Joseph Lieberman also expressed support for Clapper. “Gen. Clapper has given 47 years to our country, he’s a first rate intelligence officer, he’s done an excellent job,” Lieberman said. “No, I don’t think he should resign.” Clapper’s Thursday testimony also attracted criticism for his statement that Russia and China presented the largest threats to American security. Michigan Democratic Sen. Carl Levin responded with surprise, “You didn’t mention Iran or North Korea, which would have been the first two countries I would have thought of.” ------------------------------------------------------- [Click on link to read article]
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safeharbor37
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Post by safeharbor37 on Mar 13, 2011 14:47:53 GMT -5
Point of information: I always considered the radical Palestinian organizations, the IRA, the Basques and other organizations which promoted or carried out "terrorist" attacks against innocent persons as despicable, particularly the bombing of Lord Mountbatten and his twelve year old grandson. Unfortunately, the IRA was [is?] primarily funded in the "Irish" bars of Boston, Chicago, etc. so it's not really safe to "tell it like it is." ~ Particularly if you visit Ireland [You're a visitor, so keep your mouth shut.]. The fact that there are many potential terrorists around does not justify failing to investigate one of them. The hearings appeared to be a waste of time, but I'm sure the intentions are good [and, who knows, maybe they learned something]. Point of Information 2: The Muslim Brotherhood is to Islamic terrorism as Sinn Fein is to IRA terrorism.
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Mar 13, 2011 14:59:29 GMT -5
Point of information: I always considered the radical Palestinian organizations, the IRA, the Basques and other organizations which promoted or carried out "terrorist" attacks against innocent persons as despicable, particularly the bombing of Lord Mountbatten and his twelve year old grandson. Unfortunately, the IRA was [is?] primarily funded in the "Irish" bars of Boston, Chicago, etc. so it's not really safe to "tell it like it is." ~ Particularly if you visit Ireland [You're a visitor, so keep your mouth shut.]. The fact that there are many potential terrorists around does not justify failing to investigate one of them. The hearings appeared to be a waste of time, but I'm sure the intentions are good [and, who knows, maybe they learned something]. Point of Information 2: The Muslim Brotherhood is to the Islamic terrorists as Sinn Fein is to IRA terrorists. "The hearings appeared to be a waste of time, but I'm sure the intentions are good [and, who knows, maybe they learned something" Not sure about the intentions, wonder if they are just profiling, bringing negative attention by citizens with a short fuse, needed hearings , while not in private, they do this all the time. Learning anything they didn't know, do I have to know it? Orivate those w ho are in the government to vote on funds , departments, the legislatures, ok, so do it in private and they groups the questions of all the investigation I hope are being done, by the agencies who are tasked with this type of thing. FBI, NSA for information, communications and Home land security and all the agencies under them, yes they should and I am sure be looking into all aspects of that, and no I don''t have the need to know the details. When something important is found out, there is always the Advocate in the supermarket line
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Post by privateinvestor on Mar 13, 2011 15:09:00 GMT -5
Point of Information 2: The Muslim Brotherhood is to Islamic terrorism as Sinn Fein is to IRA terrorism.
Yea Safeharbor .. but did the IRA ever bomb anyone in the USA?? Has the Muslim Brotherhood been involved in any Islamic terrorism in the USA?? That remains an open question, I believe?? But checkout what the DNI says about the Muslim Brotherhood
DNI James Clapper: Muslim Brotherhood "Largely Secular," "Has Eschewed Violence"
"The term Muslim Brotherhood is an umbrella term for a variety of movements. In the case of Egypt, a very heterogeneous group, largely secular, which has eschewed violence and has decried al-Qaeda as a perversion of Islam," Director of National Intelligence James Clapper told a congressional hearing today. The man was totally wrong and is totally ignorant of the Muslim Brotherhood and HE is ADVISING the PRESIDENT.
The White House already had to issue a retraction of the statement of the National Intelligence Director.
UPDATE: Jamie Smith, director of the office of public affairs for the Office of the Director of National Intelligence later said in a statement to ABC News: “To clarify Director Clapper’s point - in Egypt the Muslim Brotherhood makes efforts to work through a political system that has been, under Mubarak’s rule, one that is largely secular in its orientation – he is well aware that the Muslim Brotherhood is not a secular organization.”
He is not competent to hold the position and must go...........NOW. __________________ "If they could get the middle class, along with the poor, to envy the rich, they could control the largest voting bloc and seize all the power they'd need." Saul Alinsky
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Post by jarhead1976 on Mar 13, 2011 16:49:26 GMT -5
Point taken . Respects oped
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henryclay
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Post by henryclay on Mar 13, 2011 17:21:53 GMT -5
".......The Brotherhood, founded in 1928, wants democracy, except governed by the main principles of the Sharia. It had for long demanded greater political freedom, freedom of expression, free and fair elections where people of all trends are represented......."
This is the most innocuous passage I believe I have ever read about the designs of the Muslim Brotherhood in America. It would be helpful to know the source.
It sure runs counter to the 1991 document referred to and quoted from many times here. That document repeatedly addresses the World Movement, with specifics about settlements and using the American political system to undermine and destroy American society from within.
I would gladly like to know they have relented and are willing to assilimilate and become Americans, rather than planning to turn us into another one of their caliphates.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Mar 13, 2011 17:29:01 GMT -5
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safeharbor37
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Post by safeharbor37 on Mar 13, 2011 17:29:03 GMT -5
Not to my knowledge. I just don't care for "terrorist" organizations which target the innocent and helpless who've done no harm to anyone, but, because of the hatred of the "terrorist" is targeted because he, she or they are helpless and innocent. The World Trade Towers were attacked because they represented what Al Qaeda opposed whereas setting off a bomb in a grocery store, in a restaurant or on the street simply because it will upset those you hate, is contemptible beyond my belief. Soldiers shooting back and forth at each other is not terrorism. Killing civilians to instill fear in other innocents is. If you look at it, the IRA terrorists were contemptible lowlifes ~ those that supported them not much better. The Mexican drug gangs are close to the top of the most-disgusting list today. For too many people, terrorist means "somebody I don't like who does things I don't like." Yes. Some who are doing what we don't like may be right and we may be wrong in not only what we believe, but in what we [are] do[ing]. The fact that someone is "Irish" is no justification for the heinous acts committed by the IRA.
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Mad Dawg Wiccan
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Post by Mad Dawg Wiccan on Mar 13, 2011 17:45:14 GMT -5
<<Show me where it says Christians or Jews Hindu or otherwise demands the destruction of anyone that is not a believer?>>
The Muslim religion is about 1,400 years old. They are acting right now very much like Christians did in the year 1400 AD in regard to non-believers.
ETA: I would have been burned at the stake for witchcraft then.
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henryclay
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Post by henryclay on Mar 13, 2011 17:45:56 GMT -5
"........henryclay-are you looking for the article (source) you have quoted above........."
No, Tennesseer, I don't know what link I'm asking for. I would just like to know more about where the informatoin in the quoted comment came from and I asked for the source. But if the source is about Egypt, I hardly think it would also apply to America , , , , would it?
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Post by privateinvestor on Mar 14, 2011 8:59:21 GMT -5
The World Trade Towers were attacked because they represented what Al Qaeda opposed whereas setting off a bomb in a grocery store, in a restaurant or on the street simply because it will upset those you hate, is contemptible beyond my belief. Read more: notmsnmoney.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=politics&action=display&thread=3094&page=6#ixzz1GaAIJ1PPThe World Trade Towers were also targeted before 9/11 by Muslim Terrorists with a car bomb in the garage. Islam hated these towers because it represented America's wealth and the power in the world community. They attacked the Pentagon because it represented America's military power in the world community. And will we see any more attacks like 9/11 by the Muslim terrorists?? Ask a Liberal and let him answer that question by defending the Muslims again..and trying to divert to another subject about Christains or Jews..as we saw at last Thursday's congressional hearings on this subject..
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Mar 14, 2011 9:35:23 GMT -5
All this talk about the understated danger or the overstated danger alleged to face us, we Americans , from those who follow Islam as their faith, those who are considered radical Muslims had me wondering how many of these folks, Muslims in general are really here. It seems finally two separate groups have come up with a figure very close to each other , independently , having nothing to do with each other. 1.8 million. There are quite a few Black Americans who are of the faith too, native born , some who follow Farrakhan but also so many who follow their own leaders and just worship as a faith. It doesn't seem there are that many, even if you bring it up to three million, that is not a very large figure. www.danielpipes.org/76/how-many-us-muslims
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safeharbor37
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Post by safeharbor37 on Mar 14, 2011 13:59:10 GMT -5
Lest my post is misunderstood, let me say that the issue here is danger from radical islamists who may or may not be terrorists. The radical islamists represent enemies who may use terror as a weapon. Their goal is the destruction of the "West" and establishment of a universal Islamic State. Although they are not technically a nation, the state of conflict is very much like "war" as in, "war on terrorism," although again, the war is actually against radical Islamic terrorism [or any action by them directed toward the destruction of our way of life]. I fully support the "state of war" approach against Islamic radicals who have attacked the US or supported those who have. Three million people is not a lot of people? That many people would constitute one of the largest cities in the US [actually, in the world]. Three million people may not seem like a lot of people if you don't have to deal with them [about 1% of the US legal population]. Twenty-one people did quite a lot of damage on 9/11.
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Post by privateinvestor on Mar 14, 2011 14:05:37 GMT -5
Total US Muslims population 2.4 million - 7 million (2010) 0.8–2.6% of the U.S. population (2010)[1] (Council on American-Islamic Relations) 2.5 Million (2007) 0.8% of the U.S. population (2007)[2] (Pew Research Center) 1.8 Million (2007) 0.6% of the U.S. population (2007)[3] (CIA world Factbook) Regions with significant populations New York metropolitan area, Michigan, Illinois, all along the Northeast Megalopolis in the Northeastern United States, Florida, Washington DC area, the West Coast (especially the Los Angeles and Bay Area), the Chicago Source: Wikipedia ( of course...hope the expert liberal politicos are ok with this source?)...
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Post by privateinvestor on Mar 14, 2011 14:08:11 GMT -5
2.4 million - 7 million (2010)Now for the million dollar question Safeharbor....how many of the 2.4 - 7 million are Muslim terrorists?? Probably lot more than we can even imagine ... Just 1% of the 2,400,000 = 24000 now that is scary..
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safeharbor37
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Post by safeharbor37 on Mar 14, 2011 14:33:08 GMT -5
I don't see that as the issue as yet. What Rep. King was investigating is the influence of a few "leaders" within the Islamic community who may be generating more "terrorists" as we speak. There are obviously groups which protect agitators and encourage radical ideology and some of those have been identified and legal action taken. The problem is how to discourage that sort of thing without alienating Muslims who aren't currently radicalized. It's a problem. To a great extent this is similar to past [and present] criminal organizations which were identified with and nurtured by ethnic groups [minorities]. The Mafia [Black Hand, Cosa Nostra, etc.] is the most visible and identified exclusively with Italians and Italian-Americans, but there were [are] many others including Irish, Chinese, Japanese, Vietnamese, Mexican, Salvadorian, Columbian, Russian, and so on. The big difference is that the current radical Islamist threat is against the American Way of Life itself, while the others actually embrace[d] the American Way as facilitating their organizations. Thus I think that treating the Islamic threat exclusively as criminal as opposed to foreign warfare is a mistake, possibly a fatal mistake. Twenty-four thousand is a scary number, much less three million. The point here is that we don't know the actual number [of terrorists & collaborators] so it's difficult to devise a strategy to deal with them.
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Post by privateinvestor on Mar 14, 2011 14:45:06 GMT -5
Safeharbor.. I think what is more scary is how much their numbers have increased in only @ four years..and especially out here on the West Coast because they are becoming a political force with demonstrations and protests that are beginning to rile up the Non Muslims....Police were ordered to protect most of their mosques in the Bay area leading up to the King hearings last week...but thankfully it was not an event..
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Mar 14, 2011 20:14:02 GMT -5
Lest my post is misunderstood, let me say that the issue here is danger from radical islamists who may or may not be terrorists. The radical islamists represent enemies who may use terror as a weapon. Their goal is the destruction of the "West" and establishment of a universal Islamic State. Although they are not technically a nation, the state of conflict is very much like "war" as in, "war on terrorism," although again, the war is actually against radical Islamic terrorism [or any action by them directed toward the destruction of our way of life]. I fully support the "state of war" approach against Islamic radicals who have attacked the US or supported those who have. Three million people is not a lot of people? That many people would constitute one of the largest cities in the US [actually, in the world]. Three million people may not seem like a lot of people if you don't have to deal with them [about 1% of the US legal population]. Twenty-one people did quite a lot of damage on 9/11. Well I guess they can dust off those old plans that settled the Japanese /American problem back in the day Safe. I boosted it to 3 million for the hell of it....they said 1.8 million, both reports. I never said it isn't something to be concerned about, just that these hearings in public, besides P.I. and other such getting entertainment value out of them, and so many hate the idea of spending Government $ on th entertainment industry, NPR, Public TV , what are we learning here that is so important that it has to be a public display. NSA, FBI, Homeland Security, Big City police departments who have the resources, even smaller ones with educational material to the chiefs of so they , at their level would be aware of anything unusual happening so they would know and realize it would be wanted, to be called to their attention . The bigger agencies charged with investigating these dangers, who have the personnel and training and expertise to investigate, even if found to be a situation that is of national concern, for the public to know that here is a # to call if see/aware of/ things seem suspeciouse/iver heard something, strange things are seen, call it in, I am fine with that. However, when you have a circus for entertainment value and yes the publicity of a elected official, bring attention to himself, for the sake of, I believe that, the hearings , public, are doing nothing but degenerating a specific group who are also American citizens and making them suspect as not quite American enough. If you were in that kind of group, I don't feel you and the others here who are so verbal in their posting would be happy campers and would be screaming the unfairness of it all the loudest. IMHO.
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