swamp
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Post by swamp on Feb 11, 2013 21:42:30 GMT -5
Kids should learn that calling people names is wrong. I don't see that as a controversial thing.
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mmhmm
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It's a great pity the right of free speech isn't based on the obligation to say something sensible.
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Post by mmhmm on Feb 11, 2013 21:42:59 GMT -5
Heather, sweetie, sorry you can't mention your parents. You need to be ashamed of your family because it upsets some people. Is that what you think? That Heather should be ashamed of her parents? I hope not. I imagine you're being sarcastic, no one has said or implied that here. If Heather's question is shut down with a statement like: "Take that question home to your parents. Now, let's talk about turtles, shall we?", you can bet Heather is going to feel shamed.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Feb 11, 2013 21:44:38 GMT -5
"It is up to the parents to decide what the school can develop as an educational program." No, no it isn't. But if that's the way you feel, the you should home school. I'm pretty sure each state sets the educational requirements with some input from the Feds. I know in NY there is a state curriculum.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Feb 11, 2013 21:44:59 GMT -5
How in the heck you could interpret "assisting in the socialization" as teaching anyone how to react instead of giving them tools, I have absolutely no idea, Phoenix. I will, however, accept your apology. | Well, I guess it doesn't matter. I agree with you that in regards to diversity, it's important to give students the tools to make their own choices.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2013 21:45:11 GMT -5
School socialization takes many forms, it isn't just from authority, but also peers. Socialization of accepted norms has always been part of the process.
Pheonix. Reading a book about people in a subgroup, normalizing and humanizing them would be part of the process you describe. So why wouldn't Two Mommies be an acceptable book, if your example were applied to lesbians instead of Muslims?
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grits
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Post by grits on Feb 11, 2013 21:45:20 GMT -5
It wasn't originally stated as Heather asking a question. It was stated more on the lines of why does Heather have two mommies, and such. Stating that all families are different, and then changing the subject is an altogether different matter.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2013 21:47:25 GMT -5
I don't know anyone that uses that book as a part of regular curriculum. It is generally used as a way to specifically address questions that arise... Ie. someone aka Heather about her to mommies...
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cereb
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Post by cereb on Feb 11, 2013 21:47:40 GMT -5
"But doesn't teaching kids HOW to react to differences go against the idea of critical thinking? If you say "calling Joey a towel head is wrong and you should feel bad" is that not imposing your will on the kid and teaching him to accept your idea as immutable fact? Wouldn't it be better to teach your kid about the history and custom of wearing turbins and have your kid come to the realization himself?"
No, it doesn't go against the idea of critical thinking, it's called teaching a child good old fashioned manners. Your not teaching the child that wearing a turban is the best thing ever and that he aught to pester his parents to get him one. You are not teaching him to "accept" any idea, culture or difference, but you are teaching him to respect someone who is different from him by NOT making derogatory statements to or about the person which are meant only to hurt them. And certainly, teaching the child about that particular custom would enhance the point.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2013 21:49:23 GMT -5
I hate to differ with you, mmhmm. If one's can't think for themselves, how they can able to process the informations they received. Most children are born with good minds. Not all are born with superior minds, but most are born with quite adequate minds. At first, children tend to mimic their parents. As they grow, interact socially (such as at school, and other public venues), and are confronted with lifestyles and cultures much different than their own, critical thinking becomes just what it says it is ... critical. We're not born knowing how to extract all the information we can from all the sources we can muster. These things are developed in us as we progress through our schooling. That's how we learn to process the information we receive. The richness of our sources compliments our natural curiosity, which leads to the desire to develop more knowledge. This is what must be encouraged through the development of critical thinking skills, IMO. mmhmm, I agrees with most of what you are saying.In my minds, school is not part of equation of learning critical thinking skills, That's just my opinion. Lets agree to disagree. Good night.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Feb 11, 2013 21:52:14 GMT -5
Let's take a look at this little guy. Most have seen him before, and most will be aware of the venue in which this picture was taken. What kind of manners has this child been taught at home? To what level of diversity has he been exposed, and with what message?
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grits
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Post by grits on Feb 11, 2013 21:52:39 GMT -5
Kids should learn that calling people names is wrong. I don't see that as a controversial thing. You should learn that at home before you even start kindergarten.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2013 21:52:56 GMT -5
Fun, then what do you think schools are for? No socialization? No critical thinking? What then?
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mmhmm
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It's a great pity the right of free speech isn't based on the obligation to say something sensible.
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Post by mmhmm on Feb 11, 2013 21:52:59 GMT -5
G'night, snowbird. Sleep softly.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2013 21:53:58 GMT -5
Kids should learn that calling people names is wrong. I don't see that as a controversial thing. You should learn that at home before you even start kindergarten. Should .... You've never taught public school have you?
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Feb 11, 2013 21:54:17 GMT -5
Kids should learn that calling people names is wrong. I don't see that as a controversial thing. You should learn that at home before you even start kindergarten. You're right, it should be taught. But some places it's not.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Feb 11, 2013 21:54:55 GMT -5
You should learn that at home before you even start kindergarten. Should .... You've never taught public school have you? Taught?! It sounds grits has never been in one.
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grits
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Post by grits on Feb 11, 2013 21:55:34 GMT -5
Let's take a look at this little guy. Most have seen him before, and most will be aware of the venue in which this picture was taken. What kind of manners has this child been taught at home? To what level of diversity has he been exposed, and with what message? You might be able to teach him to not do that at school but I think you'd have a hard time overcoming the influence of his home life when he is away from school. Kids are pretty sharp in determining what they want to do, and where it is safe to do it.
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grits
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Post by grits on Feb 11, 2013 21:56:17 GMT -5
You should learn that at home before you even start kindergarten. Should .... You've never taught public school have you? As a matter of fact, I have.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2013 21:59:03 GMT -5
And all the kids you had in class had been taught before K not to call names, (etc.) ...
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grits
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Post by grits on Feb 11, 2013 21:59:56 GMT -5
Should .... You've never taught public school have you? Taught?! It sounds grits has never been in one. I realize I am from a different part of the country than you. I also realize I was raised in a totally different family dynamic than you. Maybe, your parents did not teach you those things when you were small but mine did. I did indeed attend public school. I did go to a pretty wild high school. Manners were absolutely required. Disrespect, and vulgarity were not tolerated. Even the worst kids had a minimum standard by which they had to abide.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Feb 11, 2013 22:00:37 GMT -5
Should .... You've never taught public school have you? As a matter of fact, I have. So what did you say when a kid asked why another kid had 2 mommies?
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cereb
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Post by cereb on Feb 11, 2013 22:01:14 GMT -5
"You might be able to teach him to not do that at school but I think you'd have a hard time overcoming the influence of his home life when he is away from school. Kids are pretty sharp in determining what they want to do, and where it is safe to do it."
Well of course. The idea is to plant the seed. To set expectations and have the child follow those expectations just like he/ she will be expected when they are adults in public places, holding jobs and raising kids of their own.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Feb 11, 2013 22:02:21 GMT -5
Taught?! It sounds grits has never been in one. I realize I am from a different part of the country than you. I also realize I was raised in a totally different family dynamic than you. Maybe, your parents did not teach you those things when you were small but mine did. I did indeed attend public school. I did go to a pretty wild high school. Manners were absolutely required. Disrespect, and vulgarity were not tolerated. Even the worst kids had a minimum standard by which they had to abide. I'm from a pretty solidly middle class family where politeness was required. I went to a very poor school district but tolerance was expected
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grits
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Post by grits on Feb 11, 2013 22:02:28 GMT -5
And all the kids you had in class had been taught before K not to call names, (etc.) ... They didn't do it because it wasn't tolerated. If they did it, it was away from the teachers. Parents here wanted their kids to graduate. They believed that without the diploma, the kids could not get a decent job. If they got out of control, they wouldn't pass. If they didn't pass, they couldn't graduate. Do you see how that works?
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grits
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Post by grits on Feb 11, 2013 22:04:19 GMT -5
As a matter of fact, I have. So what did you say when a kid asked why another kid had 2 mommies? I didn't teach elementary. I taught junior high, and high school. Also, back then, it wasn't discussed much. Kids were more concerned about their looks, who they were dating, and what was going on at their own homes than who had two mommies or whose mom was a hooker.
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grits
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Post by grits on Feb 11, 2013 22:05:33 GMT -5
I realize I am from a different part of the country than you. I also realize I was raised in a totally different family dynamic than you. Maybe, your parents did not teach you those things when you were small but mine did. I did indeed attend public school. I did go to a pretty wild high school. Manners were absolutely required. Disrespect, and vulgarity were not tolerated. Even the worst kids had a minimum standard by which they had to abide. I'm from a pretty solidly middle class family where politeness was required. I went to a very poor school district but tolerance was expected Then, why would you make the silly statement that you did?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2013 22:07:37 GMT -5
What silly statement?
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grits
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Post by grits on Feb 11, 2013 22:10:08 GMT -5
I was posting to swamp. The statement went with what was in the quote.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Feb 11, 2013 23:09:59 GMT -5
... Who decides what is the social norm? ... The school board elected by the public from which we derive the name "public school".
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Feb 12, 2013 1:36:16 GMT -5
"You might be able to teach him to not do that at school but I think you'd have a hard time overcoming the influence of his home life when he is away from school. Kids are pretty sharp in determining what they want to do, and where it is safe to do it." Well of course. The idea is to plant the seed. To set expectations and have the child follow those expectations just like he/ she will be expected when they are adults in public places, holding jobs and raising kids of their own. Intersting, the thread started out as why it was wrong to expect kids to not question authority, then you, Oped, and others go on to say that school is to "socialize" kids and to "teach social norms" and "set expectations and have kids follow those expectations." Oped says schools is to "normalize kids" aka, make them what society considers normal. Which is it, teach kids to critically think and ask questions of what's expected of them and social norms, or to teach them to critically think and question those social norms? Or some combination?
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