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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2012 17:02:38 GMT -5
I'm sad and horrified right now. Two days ago a young man went to a local mall, killed two, wounded another, and then killed himself. He used an assault rifle. It is uncomfortably close to home - geographically and activity wise. It's a mall I've shopped at, had lunch with girlfriends at, and the same day I was at a different area mall. www.nytimes.com/2012/12/13/us/oregon-mall-closed-after-deadly-shooting.html?_r=0We are lucky more weren't hurt. From the first 911 call to the identification of the dead shooter it only took 22 minutes. The mall and local police had practiced a shooter drill only 6 months before. A dentist cleared the corridor behind his office of 30+ people minutes before the shooter came into the corridor and committed suicide. What do you think would stop this? Part of me says to go get trained in how to use a gun and get a concealed carry license. Another part says it doesn't matter - he was wearing body armor. I don't understand why we don't have a ban on assault rifles. Every hunter I know uses a bow or basic rifle. Part of me says that criminals will always find a way to obtain weapons, that gun bans only affect law abiding citizens. Activists are blaming gun laws, video games, the lack of mental health care. I'm not sure what to think.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Dec 13, 2012 17:11:26 GMT -5
::Part of me says to go get trained in how to use a gun and get a concealed carry license.::
Except in many areas, even with a concealed carry license, you are not allowed to carry in places which prohibit the carrying of firearms...which tend to be places like the mall.
::Part of me says that criminals will always find a way to obtain weapons, that gun bans only affect law abiding citizens.::
Yes and no I would say. People who want to, will always be able to obtain such weapons. But the person who decides to go on a shooting rampage may not have any idea where to get the illegal firearms. I think the question becomes "Why would a normal law-abiding citizen need an assault rifle?" I'm not a gun guy, so I don't know the answer to that.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2012 17:12:49 GMT -5
This shooter stole the gun from a housemate or friend - thank God he wasn't more familiar with it. The death toll could have been much higher.
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movingforward
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Post by movingforward on Dec 13, 2012 17:20:46 GMT -5
Didn't the guy in Colorado obtain some weapons legally? I know absolutely nothing about guns but it seems that there are total nut jobs out there with no criminal record who are getting assault rifles through legal means. I don't know what the solution is... I do think that people should have a right to own a gun in their own homes for protection but I personally don't want a bunch of people walking around with concealed weapons. There are many people who want to "play the hero" and I just think more innocent people might get caught in the crossfire.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Dec 13, 2012 17:30:40 GMT -5
::I do think that people should have a right to own a gun in their own homes for protection::
To me one of the questions is what type of gun do you need to protect your home? Do you need an assault rifle to do it?
Though I also think there's this ideal that this is such a huge problem. The reality is that it's a tragedy for the individual who dies, but overall, it's a miniscule portion of the people who die every day, miniscule even compared to gun-related deaths. I mean how many people really die in these kind of assault rifle attacks each year? In a lot of ways it's really just a media concoction, it's a dramatic story.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2012 17:35:01 GMT -5
When was the last time a (mass) murderer followed laws? Oh, that's right, they don't...why would you expect them to follow gun laws if they don't follow the law about not killing people?
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movingforward
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Post by movingforward on Dec 13, 2012 17:37:14 GMT -5
"In a lot of ways it's really just a media concoction, it's a dramatic story."
Very true. It is disturbing when it happens; however, it reminds me of how the media has made so many people helicopter parents due to kidnapping stories when in reality kidnappings are rare and statistically haven't increased that much.
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movingforward
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Post by movingforward on Dec 13, 2012 17:42:50 GMT -5
When was the last time a (mass) murderer followed laws? Oh, that's right, they don't...why would you expect them to follow gun laws if they don't follow the law about not killing people? Well, actually some do get them legally... www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=21348717
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Dec 13, 2012 17:43:44 GMT -5
When was the last time a (mass) murderer followed laws? Oh, that's right, they don't...why would you expect them to follow gun laws if they don't follow the law about not killing people? If owning assault weapons was illegal, law abiding people wouldn't have them in their homes. When criminals broke into the house, they couldn't steal them, and therefore there would be less of them on the streets. If it's illegal to buy them in stores, if it's illegal to buy them through the mail, if you can't break into someone else's house to steal one, there will be a lot less of them out there. No one can give me a good reason for anyone except the police and the military to have assault weapons. None. You don't hunt game with a machine gun. You don't need one to defend your home. There are two reasons to have one - you want to kill a whole lot of people very quickly, or you're a collector. I say if you're a collector, you'll just have to suck it up and start collecting knives or antique sewing machines instead. I'm not allowed to collect tigers in my house. I can't collect nerve gas or biological weapons. I shouldn't be allowed to collect assault weapons, either - they're just to friggin' dangerous. Think about how much damage that idiot could have done if he had been able to figure out how to fire that assult weapon. It's bad enough he killed 2 people, imagine if he killed 20?
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movingforward
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Post by movingforward on Dec 13, 2012 17:45:35 GMT -5
When was the last time a (mass) murderer followed laws? Oh, that's right, they don't...why would you expect them to follow gun laws if they don't follow the law about not killing people? If owning assault weapons was illegal, law abiding people wouldn't have them in their homes. When criminals broke into the house, they couldn't steal them, and therefore there would be less of them on the streets. If it's illegal to buy them in stores, if it's illegal to buy them through the mail, if you can't break into someone else's house to steal one, there will be a lot less of them out there. No one can give me a good reason for anyone except the police and the military to have assault weapons. None. You don't hunt game with a machine gun. You don't need one to defend your home. There are two reasons to have one - you want to kill a whole lot of people very quickly, or you're a collector. I say if you're a collector, you'll just have to suck it up and start collecting knives or antique sewing machines instead. I'm not allowed to collect tigers in my house. I can't collect nerve gas or biological weapons. I shouldn't be allowed to collect assault weapons, either - they're just to friggin' dangerous. Think about how much damage that idiot could have done if he had been able to figure out how to fire that assult weapon. It's bad enough he killed 2 people, imagine if he killed 20?
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damnotagain
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Post by damnotagain on Dec 13, 2012 17:45:41 GMT -5
When you need a gun ...... You need one bad!
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Dec 13, 2012 17:46:57 GMT -5
::There are two reasons to have one - you want to kill a whole lot of people very quickly, or you're a collector. ::
or 3, you just like to go to the firing range and shoot them. Which is probably far more common than a mass murderer or someone you'd really deem to be a "collector".
::they're just to friggin' dangerous. ::
Statistically speaking they kill FAR fewer people than handguns, should handguns be outlawed?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2012 17:47:24 GMT -5
When was the last time a (mass) murderer followed laws? Oh, that's right, they don't...why would you expect them to follow gun laws if they don't follow the law about not killing people? If owning assault weapons was illegal, law abiding people wouldn't have them in their homes. When criminals broke into the house, they couldn't steal them, and therefore there would be less of them on the streets. If it's illegal to buy them in stores, if it's illegal to buy them through the mail, if you can't break into someone else's house to steal one, there will be a lot less of them out there. No one can give me a good reason for anyone except the police and the military to have assault weapons. None. You don't hunt game with a machine gun. You don't need one to defend your home. There are two reasons to have one - you want to kill a whole lot of people very quickly, or you're a collector. I say if you're a collector, you'll just have to suck it up and start collecting knives or antique sewing machines instead. I'm not allowed to collect tigers in my house. I can't collect nerve gas or biological weapons. I shouldn't be allowed to collect assault weapons, either - they're just to friggin' dangerous. Think about how much damage that idiot could have done if he had been able to figure out how to fire that assult weapon. It's bad enough he killed 2 people, imagine if he killed 20? If all guns were outlawed and he still wanted to kill a bunch of people he could have made a pipe bomb and left it in a food court the mall...If someone wants to kill people they'll find a way...
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Dec 13, 2012 17:49:58 GMT -5
::You don't hunt game with a machine gun.::
For the sake of this argument, I'll point out that a machine gun, and an assault rifle are not the same things.
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movingforward
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Post by movingforward on Dec 13, 2012 17:51:46 GMT -5
::There are two reasons to have one - you want to kill a whole lot of people very quickly, or you're a collector. :: or 3, you just like to go to the firing range and shoot them. Which is probably far more common than a mass murderer or someone you'd really deem to be a "collector". ::they're just to friggin' dangerous. :: Statistically speaking they kill FAR fewer people than handguns, should handguns be outlawed? Could there be a way to go to the firing range and not own an assault rifle? Could it be like when you go to the bowling alley and use the ball they have and return it. Seriously, this may be a stupid question but I am asking because, like I said earlier, I don't know anything about guns but I really just don't see a need for someone to own an assault rifle...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2012 17:55:08 GMT -5
"To me one of the questions is what type of gun do you need to protect your home? Do you need an assault rifle to do it? "
What is the difference between a rifle and an assault rifle? Is there a different kind than an assault rifle?
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Dec 13, 2012 17:55:18 GMT -5
::Could there be a way to go to the firing range and not own an assault rifle?::
Absolutely, tons of people go to the range to fire a different type of gun than what they own. I don't own any guns but I've gone with friends to the range and used one there.
I think it's not just a question of "assault rifle" though, it's what type of gun is ok vs not ok? Is an assault weapon (different from assault rifle) ok? Is a semi-automatic rifle ok, semi automatic handgun, where is the line?
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Dec 13, 2012 17:56:36 GMT -5
"To me one of the questions is what type of gun do you need to protect your home? Do you need an assault rifle to do it? " What is the difference between a rifle and an assault rifle? Is there a different kind than an assault rifle? Assault rifles are usually classified as being fully automatic. If you don't have full auto, it's probably not classified as an assault rifle (but could still be an assault weapon which is based on a whole different set of criteria). And the gunman in Oregon didn't use an assault rifle, just an FYI. His was apparently a semi-auto from the story.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Dec 13, 2012 17:56:45 GMT -5
::There are two reasons to have one - you want to kill a whole lot of people very quickly, or you're a collector. :: or 3, you just like to go to the firing range and shoot them. Which is probably far more common than a mass murderer or someone you'd really deem to be a "collector". ::they're just to friggin' dangerous. :: Statistically speaking they kill FAR fewer people than handguns, should handguns be outlawed? No because handguns have a purpose. I don't agree with everyone needing a gun for home protection, but if you want one to feel safer, that's fine. I think the existing gun laws on purchasing handguns should be enforced, though - too easy for a felon to purchase a gun at a gun show, for instance. Assault weapons have no purpose. I don't consider wanting to collect them a good enough reason. I don't consider wanting to fire them at a firing range a good enough purpose. If you want to have fun firing things, build a trebuchet and launch a piano. Or make a pumpkin chunker. Or a crossbow. There are all kinds of fun weapons you can fire - your life won't end if you don't get to run down to the firing range and fire off a couple thousand rounds. The purpose of assault weapons is to kill a lot of people very quickly. That's it. There is no acceptable time and place for a non military person to need to do that, unless of course we have a zombie apocolpyse, and then we're pretty much screwed anyway. We don't always get to do what we want to do. I want to make a moat around my house and put lions in it. I want to make ricin in my garage. I want to lay land mines in the front yard to keep the neighbor's dogs from crapping in the yard. Somethings are just to dangerous to have laying around, and assault weapons are one of them.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Dec 13, 2012 17:59:17 GMT -5
::You don't hunt game with a machine gun.:: For the sake of this argument, I'll point out that a machine gun, and an assault rifle are not the same things. Any weapon capable of rapidly firing volumes of bullets should be banned. Single shot hand guns, rifles, whatever - ok. You can kill people in a mall with a handgun, but you can't kill that many before you have to stop to reload.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Dec 13, 2012 18:00:19 GMT -5
::Assault weapons have no purpose.::
Assault weapon? Or assault rifle? Plenty of people use assault weapons to hunt.
::The purpose of assault weapons is to kill a lot of people very quickly.::
Again, i think there's some clouding between "assault rifle" and what technically classifies as an "assault weapon" which has a much lower barrier to be classified.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2012 18:00:27 GMT -5
"Assault rifles are usually classified as being fully automatic. If you don't have full auto, it's probably not classified as an assault rifle (but could still be an assault weapon which is based on a whole different set of criteria).
And the gunman in Oregon didn't use an assault rifle, just an FYI. His was apparently a semi-auto from the story."
It sounds like a stupid classification. You can assault someone with a non-automatic or semi-automatic rifle also. It doesn't make it any better that the gunman in oregon didn't use an "assault" rifle.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Dec 13, 2012 18:02:06 GMT -5
::Any weapon capable of rapidly firing volumes of bullets should be banned. ::
And this is different than saying "assault weapons" due to how everything gets classified.
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doxieluvr
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Post by doxieluvr on Dec 13, 2012 18:19:18 GMT -5
Guns are not the issue. People are the issue. My ex was an avid collector and had an AK-47. It was just a neat gun, but rarely made it out of the safe. Usually only when someone wanted to see one in person. He never hunted but did go target shooting some times. I had a handgun for home protection that I kept in a bedroom safe.
Gun laws are tough enough. One has to take gun safety courses to even purchase guns, go through a background check and are limited in the quantity you can purchase every 30 days.
Frankly we are going to have these nut jobs on shooting sprees until we deal with the nut jobs. Toughen criminal laws. Make stiffer punishments. But taking "assault" weapons off the market is not going to help. One can kill someone with a muzzleloader and that is not even technically considered a gun. Or at least not one that you need to have a background check to purchase.
We recently had a high school student on a rampage. He used an antique mantle piece that was not even supposed to be fired. Nutbags will find guns to commit their rampages. That kid had signs all over his Facebook, months prior, that he was bat shit crazy. That should have been when he was dealt with not after the shooting.
We have guns in our house. I was raised in a house with guns. Guns are not the issue. People are the issue. Children need to be taught proper gun safety and handling. Most of all they need to be taught compassion towards others so they grow up to be adults that have compassion. Normal sane, caring individuals do not go on mall shooting rampages.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Dec 13, 2012 18:22:30 GMT -5
Gun laws are tough enough. One has to take gun safety courses to even purchase guns, go through a background check and are limited in the quantity you can purchase every 30 days.
No you don't. It depends upon the state you live in. You happen to live in one of the more stringent states in the US.
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doxieluvr
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Post by doxieluvr on Dec 13, 2012 18:26:24 GMT -5
Gun laws are tough enough. One has to take gun safety courses to even purchase guns, go through a background check and are limited in the quantity you can purchase every 30 days. No you don't. It depends upon the state you live in. You happen to live in one of the more stringent states in the US. Fine, then make MD laws the standard across the board and they are tough enough. Taking guns off the market completely is not the answer.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Dec 13, 2012 18:27:56 GMT -5
Think about how much damage that idiot could have done if he had been able to figure out how to fire that assult weapon. It's bad enough he killed 2 people, imagine if he killed 20? ------------ It's a good thing the gun jammed, or he would have killed more. Here's my question. How did he manage to kill himself?
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Dec 13, 2012 18:31:20 GMT -5
Assault weapons have no purpose. I don't consider wanting to collect them a good enough reason. ---------------- Neither do I. What if I wanted to collect deadly viruses, like ebola or the plague? Should I be able to just because I want to?
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doxieluvr
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Post by doxieluvr on Dec 13, 2012 18:33:41 GMT -5
Honestly, I think more normal, sane people should be given carrying permits so more citizens would be armed, to take down any potential nut bags.
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movingforward
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Post by movingforward on Dec 13, 2012 18:39:36 GMT -5
Honestly, I think more normal, sane people should be given carrying permits so more citizens would be armed, to take down any potential nut bags. Oh yeah, that would make me feel much better . I can just see it now - I stop at the convenient store and run in for a pack of gum. Some fool decides to come in and rob the place. We would all be fine if we just get down on the floor and let him take the money but some "wannabe cop" with a gun decides he's going to be a hero and we all end up killed in the crossfire. No thank you...
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