Another border shooting

[Value Buy]

US border agent killed in Ariz. shooting

Will this become part of the first debate tomorrow?

By NBC News staff and wire reports

Two U.S. Border Patrol agents were shot, one fatally, near Naco, Arizona, authorities told KVOA.com and The Associated Press on Tuesday.

The shooting occurred at a patrol base named after Brian Terry – a border agent who was killed in December 2010 in an incident at the center of a controversy over a Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms and Explosives (ATF) gun tracking operation known as "Fast and Furious."

“The injured agent has been airlifted to the hospital,” Crystal Amarillas, a spokeswoman for the U.S. Border Patrol in Tuscon, said in a statement to KVOA.
Two US border agents shot, one fatally, in Ariz.

Complete article here: usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/10/02/14181431-two-us-border-agents-shot-one-fatally-in-ariz?lite

[billisonboard]

In what context would you propose it be included?

[Value Buy]

Border security, of course, or lack there of......

[billisonboard]

Oct 2, 2012 9:39:42 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

Border security, of course, or lack there of......

Won't border guards being shot at the border indicate that they were providing border security?

[mmhmm]

Value Buy, please provide a link to the article you've quoted, per the CoC. Thanks.

mmhmm, P&M Moderator

[Value Buy]

Oct 2, 2012 9:42:35 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

Value Buy, please provide a link to the article you've quoted, per the CoC. Thanks.

mmhmm, P&M Moderator

Mmhmm, for some ungodly reason, I have been having trouble posting links.
Will try again.

[Driftr]

Oct 2, 2012 9:39:42 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

Border security, of course, or lack there of......

You think either of the boneheads that will be debating are interested at all in border security?

[mmhmm]

Oct 2, 2012 9:44:09 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

Oct 2, 2012 9:42:35 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

Value Buy, please provide a link to the article you've quoted, per the CoC. Thanks.

mmhmm, P&M Moderator

Mmhmm, for some ungodly reason, I have been having trouble posting links.
Will try again.

Ahh. Okay, then, VB. I found the article on NBC and will add it to your OP.

mmhmm, P&M Moderator

[vandalshandle]

I live near the area in the article. I ride my bike every evening in a loop that covers about 35 miles thorough the desert. I wear a 9 MM, just in case I get stranded out there. However, on any given evening on which I ride, I find that about half of the vehicles that I see are Border Patrol vehicles. I also watch the drones fly a pattern every night over the Santa Cruz River bed, with heat and motion sensors. I cross the border frequently, and have not done so in years without having my vehicle checked over by working dogs. There are stop points about 25 miles miles north of the border on every paved road in the state. There are towers in the desert with heat and motion sensors mounted on them.The truth is that the Border Patrol is doing a very good job. I can't think of a thing that they could do to enhance the border security, short of violating human rights (mining the border) or violating our constitutional rights.

[TonyTiger]

Security along the 1,969 mile border between the United States and Mexico is a bad joke, from the American perspective.

[mmhmm]

The "American perspective" notwithstanding, I think I'll put more weight on the information provided by someone who actually lives in the area and witnesses what's going on daily with regard to the border patrol than I will to anything provided by someone who gets their information from what they read in the media. Just makes more sense to me.

[TonyTiger]

Oct 2, 2012 11:15:18 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

The "American perspective" notwithstanding, I think I'll put more weight on the information provided by someone who actually lives in the area and witnesses what's going on daily with regard to the border patrol than I will to anything provided by someone who gets their information from what they read in the media. Just makes more sense to me.

One need look no further than the presence of 6,000,000 to 12,000,000 Illegal Aliens now present upon United States soil without our permission - more than 66% of them Mexican in origin according to the Pew Hispanic Institute and the United States Census Bureau - to see the truth in the statement that security along the US-Mexican border is, indeed, a bad joke, from the American perspective.

No further elaboration is required.

The hard data speaks for itself.

And that 'makes more sense' to any objective person analyzing the situation.

[vandalshandle]

Oct 2, 2012 11:26:09 GMT -5 TonyTiger said:

Oct 2, 2012 11:15:18 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

The "American perspective" notwithstanding, I think I'll put more weight on the information provided by someone who actually lives in the area and witnesses what's going on daily with regard to the border patrol than I will to anything provided by someone who gets their information from what they read in the media. Just makes more sense to me.

One need look no further than the presence of 6,000,000 to 12,000,000 Illegal Aliens now present upon United States soil without our permission - more than 66% of them Mexican in origin according to the Pew Hispanic Institute and the United States Census Bureau - to see the truth in the statement that security along the US-Mexican border is, indeed, a bad joke, from the American perspective.

No further elaboration is required.

The hard data speaks for itself.

And that 'makes more sense' to any objective person analyzing the situation.

Actually, further elaboration IS needed. First, the Border Patrol has been doubled in manpower since Obama took office, which means that most of those illegal aliens of which you speak came here before our security was beefed up. Second, in spite of all the harping I hear about border security, I have yet to see a single suggestion that is practical and workable to improve the situation that is not already being done. Having said that, I do not consider mining the border to be a solution. As for the fence they are building, perhaps they should talk to the Chinese about the Great Wall, and find out how successful it was in keeping the Mongols out (who simply bribed their way through). Nor, do I consider the suggestion of building a Berlin Wall, complete with guard towers and machine guns to be an option.

[mmhmm]

Those millions didn't all come across the border yesterday, or last week, or last month, or last year, Tony. They've been coming across, under, around and through the border for a loooong time. As I said, I'll pay more attention to someone who's actually seeing what's happening NOW than to someone who really knows only what they read.

[sesfw]

Who's brain-child was 'Fast and Furious'?

I personally think a twenty mile wide strip the full 2K miles of the US/Mexican border should be a live firing practice range. With motion detectors.

[billisonboard]

Oct 2, 2012 12:28:17 GMT -5 sesfw said:

Who's brain-child was 'Fast and Furious'?

I personally think a twenty mile wide strip the full 2K miles of the US/Mexican border should be a live firing practice range. With motion detectors.

Do you realize how many people have homes and businesses inside this zone you propose? Do you propose buying them out or killing them off?

[mmhmm]

It's a live practice firing range, billis! What fun is that if you buy people out? Let 'em come out their doors and they're history! Yeah! Arrrrggggggghhhhh!

[TonyTiger]

Oct 2, 2012 12:10:04 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

Those millions didn't all come across the border yesterday, or last week, or last month, or last year, Tony. They've been coming across, under, around and through the border for a loooong time. As I said, I'll pay more attention to someone who's actually seeing what's happening NOW than to someone who really knows only what they read.

Yes, Ms. M., they have, indeed, been coming across the border for a loooong time now -beginning immediately after the 1986 Reagan Shamnesty, and stretching forward in time 26 years to the present day.

Our ability to stem the flow of Illegal Aliens is a joke.

With a properly equipped and staffed and maintained border, we would not be looking at millions sneaking across the border, and with proper internal controls on resident aliens, we would not be looking at millions more over-staying their residency permits.

This mess is the responsibility of both Republicans and Democrats and is NOT a partisan issue.

If you have new information to share with the audience indicating that Border Security is now much improved to the point where NEW Illegal Aliens are not sneaking across the border in substantive numbers - thereby rendering it unfair to label it as a bad joke - well then, go right ahead and enlighten us.

Perhaps - as in your refusal to face the facts re: the Radical and Militant Islam threat, and citing friends in those places who know so much better than us poor slobs who only know what we read in the media and government reports - you will startle everyone here with a blinding and unassailable round of proof that our Border Security IS sound and functional now, after decades of grievous dysfunctionality.

Until then, I think that I (and, quite probably, others) will listen to the Hard Data and not to the soft-and-fuzzy protestations of others who don't want to face the facts, or who wish to minimize the extent to which the public emphasizes those facts, because they do not accord well with political agenda A or B.

[mmhmm]

Oddly enough, Tony, I don't get my "facts" from you. I don't intend to start doing so any time soon. Blather on.

[TonyTiger]

Oct 2, 2012 12:08:56 GMT -5 vandalshandle said:

"...Actually, further elaboration IS needed..."

Not really.

Is the problem fixed?

Have Illegal Aliens stopped coming across our southern borders in large numbers?

If 'yes', then it is unfair to label our border security as a bad joke.

If 'no', then it is fair to do so.

It doesn't matter whose watch it happened on.

It has been happening on ALL watches.

"...Second, in spite of all the harping I hear about border security, I have yet to see a single suggestion that is practical and workable to improve the situation that is not already being done..."

Other countries with long borders manage to secure them to prevent large-scale illegal immigration.

It seems, at first glance, that we simply have not mustered the resolve and resources to undertake a solution that works for us.

But, border security aside...

Self-deportation is the answer...

That thing that ol' Mitt wants to try (then backpedals away from when pushed into a corner)...

Making it illegal to provide jobs or housing or social services and the rest to Illegal Aliens, and putting teeth into such new laws, and then having the backbone to enforce them...

But that's another conversation... ;D

[TonyTiger]

Oct 2, 2012 14:06:22 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

Oddly enough, Tony, I don't get my "facts" from you. I don't intend to start doing so any time soon. Blather on.

Yes... I wouldn't try counterpointing those facts either... good call on your part... unless you were looking to lose the exchange... ;D

[vandalshandle]

OK, Tony, you asked for facts about the improvements that have been made in securing the border in the last few years, so here it is, although, I can't understand why your Google doesn't work:

www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2011/may/10/barack-obama/obama-says-border-patrol-has-doubled-number-agents/

Getting rid of illegals is , like you said, another conversation, but I see that I am going to have to have Jose re-coat and rubberize my roof before the election, just in case Romney is elected, and puts me in jail for hiring him to do the job.

So, I am still waiting on your practical suggestions on how to prevent illegals from crossing our borders, which is not already being done.

[vandalshandle]

Oct 2, 2012 12:28:17 GMT -5 sesfw said:

Who's brain-child was 'Fast and Furious'?

I personally think a twenty mile wide strip the full 2K miles of the US/Mexican border should be a live firing practice range. With motion detectors.

We pretty much did exactly that in 1846, which is why all the Southwestern USA is off limits to Mexicans now. Maybe we should have taken the rest of the country as well. We became a little more generous later. In 1854, we made them an offer that they could not refuse, and bought the Gadstone Purchase, which is where I live. The Mexicans were very relieved that we didn't just take it.

[mmhmm]

Oct 2, 2012 14:13:58 GMT -5 TonyTiger said:

Oct 2, 2012 14:06:22 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

Oddly enough, Tony, I don't get my "facts" from you. I don't intend to start doing so any time soon. Blather on.

Yes... I wouldn't try counterpointing those facts either... good call on your part... unless you were looking to lose the exchange... ;D

LOL! I don't play your games, Tony. The bait doesn't work on me. Try another fish.

[TonyTiger]

Oct 2, 2012 18:50:32 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

"...The bait doesn't work on me..."

Neither do facts...

But that's OK...

I wasn't tossing-in bait...

The time for bait had already passed...

By then, you'd already been hooked, landed and skinned, in case you hadn't noticed...

That was merely an observation on the value of Fact versus Unfounded Opinion, the difficulty of struggling against Fact, and the wisdom of knowing when you are facing just such a scenario...

Have a good evening...

[TonyTiger]

Oct 2, 2012 18:29:35 GMT -5 vandalshandle said:

"...So, I am still waiting on your practical suggestions on how to prevent illegals from crossing our borders, which is not already being done."

Whatever in the world leads you to believe that I have any substantive ideas on the subject of improving border security?

Have I said so, or implied thus?

I don't think so.

I have none to offer, and have never pretended otherwise.

Then again, you don't pay me to do that.

We DO, however, pay OTHERS, to do just that.

And they're not achieving the results we need.

[billisonboard]

Oct 2, 2012 19:41:21 GMT -5 TonyTiger said:

Oct 2, 2012 18:29:35 GMT -5 vandalshandle said:

"...So, I am still waiting on your practical suggestions on how to prevent illegals from crossing our borders, which is not already being done."

Whatever in the world leads you to believe that I have any substantive ideas on the subject of improving border security?

Have I said so, or implied thus?

I don't think so.

I have none to offer, and have never pretended otherwise.

Then again, you don't pay me to do that.

We DO, however, pay OTHERS, to do just that.

And they're not achieving the results we need.

I have a couple:

Extended prison time for CEO's and CFO's of corporations found employing illegals.

Legalize all drugs.

[vandalshandle]

Oct 2, 2012 19:57:25 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Oct 2, 2012 19:41:21 GMT -5 TonyTiger said:

Whatever in the world leads you to believe that I have any substantive ideas on the subject of improving border security?

Have I said so, or implied thus?

I don't think so.

I have none to offer, and have never pretended otherwise.

Then again, you don't pay me to do that.

We DO, however, pay OTHERS, to do just that.

And they're not achieving the results we need.

I have a couple:

Extended prison time for CEO's and CFO's of corporations found employing illegals.

Legalize all drugs.

I can go with that Bill, but again, I don't want to be put in jail for hiring jose to recoat my roof!

[TonyTiger]

Oct 2, 2012 21:23:15 GMT -5 vandalshandle said:

"...I don't want to be put in jail for hiring jose to recoat my roof!"

Then start hiring Joe again rather than Jose.

[usaone]

We will do what Reagan did in 1986...give them amnesty and move forward.